So it's official that Original Turks , Xiongnu, Huns, Gokturks were Mongoloid?

[Sile]

Properly that region was not even Kurdish in the past. This was Anatolian in 200 BC which is already complexed enough.

thanks

Cilicia was once Armenian

Cappodacia was the lands that crimean people settled and mixed with the locals

Paphlongia ...states as home of the Veneti

Bithynia only thracian region in anatolia

Galatea ...settled by celts from eastern alps area

Pontus and colchis, settled by greeks

Dersene, stated as original home of the kurds

[Boreas]

What is the questions and what are you talking about

The question is So it's official that Original Turks , Xiongnu, Huns, Gokturks were Mongoloid?

but you are discussing on Turkey

[MOESAN]

What is the questions and what are you talking about

The question is So it's official that Original Turks , Xiongnu, Huns, Gokturks were Mongoloid?

but you are discussing on Turkey

Good remark. I took part in some side gossips too; the answer could be given when we have metrics and DNA surveys about every population you mentioned here above, when cultural-linguistic identification will be reliably made; the question of 'mongoloid' or 'east-asian' admixture in West Anatolia today could confirm that at least a sensible percentage of first Turks would have been of 'east-asian' stock, broadly said. A roughly East>>West gradiant of 'east-asian' %s could confirm it, but Mongols story could put some mess in the game without speaking of some 'east-asian' females coopted by I-Eans males, so ancient DNA would be useful but only if well identified and dated.

[Gurka atla]

Sorry, Gurka, but this child seems very very 50/50 so almost a genuine 'metis even if in fact his true father is only 80/90% "black": it's not only a question of pigmentation but form of hair, of nose, mouth and so on; never two parents of this kind can without a magic trick give birth to this kind of metis; some europoid" or "SS-african" traits can be hidden at some level but two completely white skins give never a so pigmented child (and at this young age!); the "black" north American families where babies are classified as "white" and "black" include rarely very "black" skinned people and when "white" skinned people occur, they show always some SSAfrican traits, even if slight.
plus: Keep in mind most of the visible African traits are dominant: black hair, black eyes, very curly hair ... other traits are not but...
there is not complete thowback among mixed people where a component has been drastically wahsed out by time and history, or I missed a huge thing?
That said, I agree with you concerning the West Turkey population: repopulation - ? OR/AND ? front ligne warriors like in other historic colonizations after conflict in old times?

Although it is extremely, there had been plenty of cases where White couples give birth to black childrens and Black couples giving birth to White childrens.

Genetics is a very complicated thing.

[Gurka atla]

Good remark. I took part in some side gossips too; the answer could be given when we have metrics and DNA surveys about every population you mentioned here above, when cultural-linguistic identification will be reliably made; the question of 'mongoloid' or 'east-asian' admixture in West Anatolia today could confirm that at least a sensible percentage of first Turks would have been of 'east-asian' stock, broadly said. A roughly East>>West gradiant of 'east-asian' %s could confirm it, but Mongols story could put some mess in the game without speaking of some 'east-asian' females coopted by I-Eans males, so ancient DNA would be useful but only if well identified and dated.

Mongoloid/Caucasoid intermixing dates back long before the existence of Turkic empire, language, ethnicity was even formed. Turkic genetic legacy is far more complicated than first though. Although there is no doubt that Central Asia was heavily effected by the Mongol invasion, Central Asia already had a signficant portion of Mongoloid/Caucasian people although majority was still Iranic, Mongol invasion later added much more. I now even doubt that the Kyrgyz with R1a derived from Indo-European male ( I mean the origin is I-Eans ) . Given the fact Kyrgyz also gave 42.6% of Caucasian maternal lineages or I-Eans females. I rather trust in anthropological evidence rather DNA haplogroup who doesn't tell the whole story.



Pazyryk culture ( 600 BC ) Males were R1a part Mongoloid, females were Europoid.


" Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid.[7] "

[Gurka atla]

@Gurka:
OK for the most you say; concerning Avars what you say is not too different from what I said; but if Avars were at first 'europoids' people, why their elite seemed more 'mongoloid'? a mystery for me.
concerning pigmentation (we passed a lot of time about it!) and auDNA, we need deeper auDNA analysis and more numerous stuff with %s for pigmentation; in Asia (Indochine of the Frenchies) scholars of ancient time found only 1 blond for 1000 by instance (there, as said Tomenable, the blondism could be of Oceanian origin, only DNA can say.
the rare red hair found today among Easter Islands population would be of european origin concerning DNA if I red well and believed Genetiker (?) as for Jamaicans.
good evening

They were not pure Europoid, they were Turanids. A europoid with signficant Mongoloid influence. Perharps It was Mongoloid elite minority who subjugated the Iranic majority.

The red hair in Easter Islands is properly not European origin. I watched a youtube video saying the red hair mummy found in south America was the result of decaying and found no evidence of European origin at all.

[MOESAN]

Although it is extremely, there had been plenty of cases where White couples give birth to black childrens and Black couples giving birth to White childrens.

Genetics is a very complicated thing.

If you accept to believe it I see no objection - but genetics, spite complicated, is NOT SO complicated to put me to swallow this. No offense.
you should look at genetics dominance question and mulitibiallelic traits... by the way, the most complicated are transmission paths, the less possible to pass from a 100% something to a 100 % other thing.

[MOESAN]

They were not pure Europoid, they were Turanids. A europoid with signficant Mongoloid influence. Perharps It was Mongoloid elite minority who subjugated the Iranic majority.

The red hair in Easter Islands is properly not European origin. I watched a youtube video saying the red hair mummy found in south America was the result of decaying and found no evidence of European origin at all.

Turanid is an easy way to qualifiy an heterogenous mean population rather than a well isolated type; I saw Tadjiks and red about them; they are crossings with 'east-asian' more than an 'europoid' type, but with a dominant brachycephalic one evocating something between 'borreby' and 'dinaric' at first sight, and pigmentary 'europoid' for the most. Old anthropolgy was not always too precise concerning non european populations and I saw too low number of Tadjiks to be sure of any thing (it spites me).
concerning the 'red hair' I cited Genetiker without too much confidence because he seems having some agenda but who knows? he seemed knowing something about his (or their) DNA; have you the reference of your 'You Tube' extract?
thanks in advance;

[Alpakut]

No, most of Indian R1a is also under Z93/Z94 - actually most is under even younger L657:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

It most certainly came with the Aryan migration ("invasion" is a wrong term) to India

Indian R1a came to India from central Asia but it is 14.000 years old. This R1a type has nothing to do with the so called "Aryan migration". The other Z93 markers are clearly Turkic, and looking at the Z93 basic map it turns out a purely Turkic haplogroup diffused into south Asia.


(I also don't want to see the eupedia cosmetic fake map of Z93)

[Goga]

According to that academic study where your pictures are from, R1a evolved somewhere on the Iranian Plateau.


Not really. The so called 'Aryan' R1a is actually Z94. R1a-Z94 evolved somewhere on the Iranian Plateau also.


Btw, Aryans were not only R1a-Z94, but also R2a, J2a, G2, J1 etc. They were Caucaso-Gedrosia folks = Iranid ...

[Tomenable]

Alpakut, you should check ancient DNA samples, not modern distribution.

Based on modern distribution, it was believed that R1b is a Basque marker.

I also don't want to see the eupedia cosmetic fake map of Z93

Eupedia map is actually much better, as it is not automatically generated.

Indian R1a came to India from central Asia but it is 14.000 years old.

Entire R1a-Z93 is just 5.000 years old, and Indian subclades even younger:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

[Ailchu]

is that map in the first post still up to date? the distribution of east asian ancestry in south western turkey seems unrealisticly high. did the turkic people all migrate there? and 20% is still massive even if the turkic conquerors were 100% east asian. or does east eurasian not only include east asian admixtures but also admixtures that were already present in anatolia before?

[Ed the Red]

They can’t denote a single population as a start! Especially when they intermingled from the very start. And wherever we all started doesn’t matter as much as what all our last inclusion of genetics is. But remember if you were royal you need a son for an unbroken Y-DNA chromosome. Amazing that the line is unbroken. But which dynasty has some of the longest Y-DNA? Guess I will google haha

[Ed the Red]

Just remember basic history of war and conquerors. The mongols never quite made it past Poland. And Poland stopped the ottomans from entering Western Europe with their cavalry. The Siege of Vienna. If you have characteristics of different populations that is then the signal of your past. But If you have characteristics of your historical population well then you will have to delve into history which will explain. But there is a lot of history to be collected thus far through DNA so don’t count on anything. We know that southern Russia was a highway of many cultures. The steppes intermingled quite prominently. You may have even red hair in what is china from ancient population movements, and also Sanskrit has Indo-European elements. Well pretty obvious if they correlate Indo with European. Can’t say the one cause of migrations East and West but they were quite prominent as technology from the Fertile Crescent proceeded North. It all has to do with advanced technology that cultures may have learned from others or developed ingenuity with themselves or I mean their own unique culture. The bottom line is we all have an ability to advance and evolve, so it’s about time we do, don’t ya think! But elements of how we have become over time, should remain........within reason of focusing on good elements. Because now we are connected worldwide. We will always advance our history of the beginning as we push forward for answers. Some amazing cultures developed more independently as well as communicated. And war I hate to say advanced populations most technologically. Now every advancement affects us all. Is life gonna be more of a privilege than before. I wish I knew

[MOESAN]

Here under a digest of a new paper about Tagars, compared to other Asia old pops. Not without interest even if not centered about all Turk ancient tribes.
THANKS TO BERNARD SECHER FREE BLOG

jeudi 11 octobre 2018
ADN mitochondrial ancien de la population Tagar du Sud de la Sib�rie

Par Bernard S�cher le jeudi 11 octobre 2018, 19:12 - ADN ancien
Au 1er mill�naire av. JC., de nombreux groupes nomades ont prosp�r� dans la ceinture des steppes d'Eurasie, entre la r�gion nord Pontique et le sud de la Sib�rie. Les diff�rentes phases de d�veloppement de ces communaut�s se distinguent par les donn�es arch�ologiques et historiques (pr�-Scythes, Scythes et Sarmates). La culture Tagar est un des groupes arch�ologiques les plus �tudi�s de nomades du Sud de la Sib�rie. Elle se situe dans le bassin de Minoussinsk autour de la rivi�re Ienisse� et des monts Sa�an, et date du premier mill�naire av. JC.

Aleksandr Pilipenko et ses coll�gues viennent de publier un papier intitul�: Maternal genetic features of the Iron Age Tagar population from Southern Siberia (1 st millennium BC). Ils ont analys� l'ADN mitochondrial de 79 squelettes de la culture Tagar dont 46 de la phase ancienne (9�me au 6�me si�cles av. JC.), 24 de la phase moyenne (5�me au 3�me si�cles av. JC.) et 9 de la phase finale (2d et 1er si�cles av. JC.). La figure ci-dessous indique la localisation g�ographique des diff�rents cimeti�res dont sont issus les �chantillons �tudi�s:


Les auteurs ont s�quenc� la r�gion HVR1 de la r�gion de contr�le et test� certains SNPs de la r�gion codante pour discriminer les principaux haplogroupes. Ils ont ainsi d�tect� 39 haplotypes diff�rents. Les haplogroupes appartiennent en majorit� � l'ouest de l'Eurasie (65%: H, HV6, HV* , I, K, T, U2e, U4, U5a et U*), mais �galement � l'Eurasie de l'est (35%: A, A8, C, C4, C5, D, G2a et F1b). 23 des 39 haplotypes sont originaires de l'ouest de l'Eurasie. Les haplogroupes T, U2e et U4 sont les plus fr�quents. Les haplogroupes est Asiatiques les plus fr�quents sont A, C et D. Les haplotypes les plus fr�quents appartiennent aux haplogroupes suivants: T1 (10 individus), U4 (6 individus) et D (5 individus):


Les auteurs ont ensuite compar� la diversit� g�n�tique de la population Tagar avec celle d'autres populations anciennes en r�alisant une analyse multi-�chelles. Dans la figure ci-dessous la population Tagar est repr�sent�e par un pentagone rouge, les populations de l'�ge du Fer reli�es aux Scythes par des cercles rouges (Pazyryks, Aldy-Bel et Scythes de la r�gion nord Pontique), les populations de l'�ge du Fer non reli�es aux Scythes par des cercles noirs, les populations plus anciennes du N�olithique et de l'�ge du Bronze par des carr�s noirs:


Parmi les populations de l'�ge du Bronze, les Tagars se situent entre les populations Okunevo, Andronovo du bassin de Minoussinsk, Afanasievo et �ge du Bronze moyen de l'Alta� Mongole. Parmi les populations de l'�ge du Fer, les Tagars se situent proches des populations du monde Scythe.

Les auteurs ont ensuite refait la m�me analyse en s�parant la population Tagar en trois groupes chronologiques (Ancien, Moyen et R�cent):


Les Tagars Anciens (pentagone orange) sont plus proches des Scythes de l'ouest, alors que les Tagars Moyens (pentagone bleu) sont plus proches des populations sud Sib�riennes. Les Tagars R�cents (pentagone vert) sont � nouveau plus proches des anciennes populations occidentales, cependant le faible nombre (9) d'individus de ce dernier groupe sugg�re de rester prudent sur ces r�sultats.

Les auteurs ont �galement compar� la population Tagar avec des populations contemporaines. Ainsi elle est proche de certaines populations Turques (Bachkirs de la r�gion Volga-Oural et Tatars de Sib�rie), mais �galement d'une population Indo-Iranienne: les Tadjiks.

En conclusion, la population Tagar est proche g�n�tiquement des populations de l'�ge du Fer reli�es au monde Scythe. La pr�sence d'haplogroupes ouest Eurasiens dans la r�gion de l'Alta� date probablement des diff�rentes migrations de l'�ge du Bronze: Afanasievo (Bronze Ancien) et Andronovo (Bronze Moyen). D'autre part la pr�sence des haplogroupes est Asiatiques, notamment A8 et C4, en Eurasie de l'ouest pendant la p�riode Scythe, est probablement due aux mouvements des populations nomades de l'�ge du Fer.

[TheKong]

Actually Turks and Turkic culture is Andronava and they are brakisefal. These map is wrong, most people of Adana and Urfa Turkic and Turks hyprotetic .Erzincan, Erzurum and Kars too. Turks are different from Mongolid...

[kmak]

Indian R1a came to India from central Asia but it is 14.000 years old. This R1a type has nothing to do with the so called "Aryan migration". The other Z93 markers are clearly Turkic, and looking at the Z93 basic map it turns out a purely Turkic haplogroup diffused into south Asia.


(I also don't want to see the eupedia cosmetic fake map of Z93)

Z93 is indo-iranian origin, Turkic R1a-Z93 is descent from indo-iranians.

[melindalucy]

Prof.Aytunç Altındal origin of the name of Turkey, mysterious Celtic coins and made statements about the Celtic cross.

[中国韭菜]

Original Turks may have been genetically related to Indo-Iranians.

[MOESAN]

Original Turks may have been genetically related to Indo-Iranians.

IMO no way!

[kmak]

Original Turks may have been genetically related to Indo-Iranians.

Most probably they (Earliest Proto-Turkic) have N1-Something originally but then heavily mixed with R1 tribes. Today R1's of Central Asians speak Turkic, Uralic or Mongolic but their paternal ancestor assimilated into its community.

[Rico33]

wrong quote

[Rico33]

I can see similar people here, tho more gracile.
Would they be considered Turanid as well or just Alpine?

[Nicu]

In my opinion,

First of all, we need to accept the faluire of mongoloid term. Even Mongol people are mixed so they can't be a race name.

You can use Sardiniod term instead of Mediterreanean Race or you can use term yakutoid. Because Yakut people and Sardinian people are very pure, they can be core race, but not the mongols.

An other example

That's interesting... whenever I search for pictures of Yakuts, a good number of them look like they're partly Russian or something, and less East Asian than Mongolians. Maybe those people weren't included in the studies or something, I don't know.

[MOESAN]

That's interesting... whenever I search for pictures of Yakuts, a good number of them look like they're partly Russian or something, and less East Asian than Mongolians. Maybe those people weren't included in the studies or something, I don't know.

'mongoloid' is an old general received term, # Mongol - 'east-asian' could be a good or better erzats. All that lies on a bundle of typical features shared by the most of the people classified as 'east-asian'. It's often hard to find an good fitting term without some geographical or ethnic colour.