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Thread: Eurasia K10 CHG Calculator

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    Eurasia K10 CHG Calculator

    The population averages have been posted.

    You can find them here:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-O...F0RDF1WlU/view

    Does anyone know why on earth he doesn't have a northern Italian sample? I'm not going to be greedy and ask for four like one of the calculators provides, but would it be too much trouble to at least include the academic Bergamo sample?

    Without it, the calculator is useless for northern Italians.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The population averages have been posted.

    You can find them here:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-O...F0RDF1WlU/view

    Does anyone know why on earth he doesn't have a northern Italian sample? I'm not going to be greedy and ask for four like one of the calculators provides, but would it be too much trouble to at least include the academic Bergamo sample?

    Without it, the calculator is useless for northern Italians.

    That's not the only shortcoming. No Belgian, Dutch, German, Swiss, Austrian or Irish sample either. I can't make a map with such big holes over central and north-west Europe. Although there is a good chance that their CHG is all around 19% like the North French, English, Scots, Icelandic, Norwegians and Hungarians. A remarkable homogeneity overall.
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    Going in the right direction but still has the typical flaws. Still using Samara_Eneolithic as 100% EHG refference while Satsurbila is 88% CHG and 12% EHG(E_Samara). Eneolithic_Samara has Satsurbila like ancestry and not the opposite.

    Again a good portion of CHG ancestry is getting eaten up by EHG. And again a whole chunk of EF ancestry is getting eaten up by WHG. Thats why populations such as Tajiks turn up with as much as 13%! WHG. And the Scythian sample which is said to be Andronovo like(20% EF) is turning out with 0% of it while having 37% extra WHG!.
    He has more WHG than EHG and CHG because the Anatolian Farmer DNA is getting eaten up here.


    This calculator has similar problems as Eurogenes K8 CHG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's not the only shortcoming. No Belgian, Dutch, German, Swiss, Austrian or Irish sample either. I can't make a map with such big holes over central and north-west Europe. Although there is a good chance that their CHG is all around 19% like the North French, English, Scots, Icelandic, Norwegians and Hungarians. A remarkable homogeneity overall.
    Thats rather the smaller issues. The percentages are not accurate enough. All populations have by far more WHG and EHG as in reality. And the CHG frequency is too low.

    We have Eurogenes K8 CHG where the average Northwest European has ~30% and here it is the opposite with ~20%. But looking at Jones et al. Something inbetween (25%) seems correct.

    The calculators go in the right direction they are not but by any means but they have still flaws which turn some of the percentages completely upside down.

    Since we have now "kurd" and "Davids" calculators I am wondering why we haven't seen any new calculator of "Dienekes", to see his results and how much they will differ.
    Last edited by Alan; 07-12-15 at 18:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's not the only shortcoming. No Belgian, Dutch, German, Swiss, Austrian or Irish sample either. I can't make a map with such big holes over central and north-west Europe. Although there is a good chance that their CHG is all around 19% like the North French, English, Scots, Icelandic, Norwegians and Hungarians. A remarkable homogeneity overall.
    You're right. Also, because of that the population assignment and fits are terrible. A lot of Northwest Europeans are coming out as Croatian or Hungarian. Northern Italians are coming out as Bulgarians or Spaniards, Tuscans as Albanians.

    It's really not useful for Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's not the only shortcoming. No Belgian, Dutch, German, Swiss, Austrian or Irish sample either. I can't make a map with such big holes over central and north-west Europe. Although there is a good chance that their CHG is all around 19% like the North French, English, Scots, Icelandic, Norwegians and Hungarians. A remarkable homogeneity overall.
    I agree wih all comments on this thread ...................better to use the other new one on gedmatch

    below is mine ..............far more logical for what I know about my line .............I just think he should not have used Spanish_basque, but just Basque to cover the french_basques

    Bergamo with bulgarian is also in the Laz and haak data.



    puntDNAL K10 Ancient Oracle results:

    puntDNAL K10 Ancient Oracle



    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 WHG 38.75
    2 ENF 36.31
    3 CHG 22.07
    4 ASI 1.4
    5 Amerindian 0.83
    6 Oceanian 0.63

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Italian_Bergamo 3.84
    2 Bulgarian 6.08
    3 French 8.97
    4 Tuscan 9.02
    5 Spanish_Northeast 9.38
    6 Spanish_Southwest 9.59
    7 Albanian 10.03
    8 Croatian 10.06
    9 Greek 10.1
    10 Hungarian 12.61
    11 English_South 13.9
    12 Czech 16.06
    13 Sicilian 17.2
    14 Scottish_West 17.59
    15 Ashkenazi_Jew 18.06
    16 Basque_Spanish 19.79
    17 Ukrainian 20.58
    18 Icelandic 20.61
    19 Norwegian 20.63
    20 Sephardic_Jew 25.36

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 73.7% Italian_Bergamo + 26.3% Croatian @ 1.46
    2 69.4% Basque_Spanish + 30.6% Abkhasian @ 1.5
    3 50.1% French + 49.9% Tuscan @ 1.55
    4 78.2% Italian_Bergamo + 21.8% Hungarian @ 1.59
    5 85.5% Italian_Bergamo + 14.5% Ukrainian @ 1.64
    6 74.2% French + 25.8% Sephardic_Jew @ 1.68
    7 88.2% Italian_Bergamo + 11.8% Belarusian @ 1.74
    8 66.1% French + 33.9% Sicilian @ 1.75
    9 90% Italian_Bergamo + 10% Lithuanian @ 1.77
    10 62.5% Basque_Spanish + 37.5% Kumyk @ 1.77
    11 83.7% Italian_Bergamo + 16.3% Scottish_West @ 1.78
    12 88.3% Italian_Bergamo + 11.7% Mordovian @ 1.79
    13 80.3% Italian_Bergamo + 19.7% English_South @ 1.8
    14 89.4% Italian_Bergamo + 10.6% Russian @ 1.8
    15 89.5% Italian_Bergamo + 10.5% Estonian @ 1.8
    16 69.9% Tuscan + 30.1% Icelandic @ 1.83
    17 85.9% Italian_Bergamo + 14.1% Norwegian @ 1.84
    18 80.6% Spanish_Northeast + 19.4% Lezgin @ 1.84
    19 54.6% Sicilian + 45.4% Icelandic @ 1.85
    20 82.6% Italian_Bergamo + 17.4% Czech @ 1.86
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    This calculator is creating weird and inconsistent results. Only 58% Anatolia Neolithic for EEF? Almost 100% EHG for Poltvka? And people from closely related populations are scoring very differently. The trends make sense though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    This calculator is creating weird and inconsistent results. Only 58% Anatolia Neolithic for EEF? Almost 100% EHG for Poltvka? And people from closely related populations are scoring very differently. The trends make sense though.
    Thats because, as I said above, a whole chunk of WHG like farmer DNA is getting eaten up by "WHG". Stuttgart should at least be ~90% EF. Even Sardinians who are said to be predominantly EF(~70%) are only 48% Farmer.

    The trend is right but as I said especially for CHG, the usage of E_Samara as refference for EHG and that the WHG like portion(~50%) of EF is getting eaten up causes some inconsistency. I assume that Eurogenes K8 is also using E_Samara as refference for EHG.

    However to be fair, some of these components, especially the once which look like a "merge" of two other "components" and therefore have some overlaps and are very close to each other, can be hard to be modeled perfectly by some simple calculator algorythm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's not the only shortcoming. No Belgian, Dutch, German, Swiss, Austrian or Irish sample either. I can't make a map with such big holes over central and north-west Europe. Although there is a good chance that their CHG is all around 19% like the North French, English, Scots, Icelandic, Norwegians and Hungarians. A remarkable homogeneity overall.
    Yep, all north and central Europe seems to be uniform from 17 to 20% from Russia to GB, except Balts and Finns somewhat less. Probably from dilution of CHG after mixing with Uralic tribes later on.
    It is sort of weird that CHG is so uniform through northern Europe.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Thats because, as I said above, a whole chunk of WHG like farmer DNA is getting eaten up by "WHG". Stuttgart should at least be ~90% EF. Even Sardinians who are said to be predominantly EF(~70%) are only 48% Farmer.

    The trend is right but as I said especially for CHG, the usage of E_Samara as refference for EHG and that the WHG like portion(~50%) of EF is getting eaten up causes some inconsistency. I assume that Eurogenes K8 is also using E_Samara as refference for EHG.

    However to be fair, some of these components, especially the once which look like a "merge" of two other "components" and therefore have some overlaps and are very close to each other, can be hard to be modeled perfectly by some simple calculator algorythm.
    I have same doubts. All these recent amateurish calculators making me a bit uneasy into giving too much credibility to these numbers. However at least they can point to approximate trends of spread and relations between populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Yep, all north and central Europe seems to be uniform from 17 to 20% from Russia to GB, except Balts and Finns somewhat less. Probably from dilution of CHG after mixing with Uralic tribes later on.
    It is sort of weird that CHG is so uniform through northern Europe.
    Actually going by the original paper Estonians score the most of CHG in Northeast Europe. And average North/Northeast/Northwest is most likely ~25% since this calculator shows slightly less while Eurogenes K8 shows ~30% of average for North. Thats another of these signs of miscalculation.

    North Europe is most likely ~35/25/20/20% EF/CHG/EHG/WHG. I doubt that much of pre Indo European WHG remained in Europe. Even the studies spoke about a "rise of WHG" with the incoming Indo Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I have same doubts. All these recent amateurish calculators making me a bit uneasy into giving too much credibility to these numbers. However at least they can point to approximate trends of spread and relations between populations.
    Looking on all the calculators they seem to differ massively from each other. Therefore expect something inbetween to be right. So far puntDNAL K10 seems to be the most "accurate". But even this has some issue in comparison to the other calculators because it give a bit too much of EF ancestry. I am shown with 37 EF! In reality I should be around ~25%.

    puntDNAL is showin slightly too much EF and too weak CHG

    Eurogenes K8 CHG and Eurasia K10 CHG are showing too much WHG and EHG at the expense of especially EF (and to lesser extents CHG).
    Last edited by Alan; 08-12-15 at 13:40.

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    PuntDNAL k10 is crap because it lacks a South West Asian component. Plenty of MENAs are scoring inflated levels of ENF and EHG on there. It's obvious that 20% WHG admixed Anantolian farmers can't be used as a proxy for Red Sea ancestry in Georgians, Kurds, Iranians,....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danelaw View Post
    PuntDNAL k10 is crap because it lacks a South West Asian component. Plenty of MENAs are scoring inflated levels of ENF and EHG on there. It's obvious that 20% WHG admixed Anantolian farmers can't be used as a proxy for Red Sea ancestry in Georgians, Kurds, Iranians,....
    how important do you think the red sea is?

    J1e covers the bulk of the red sea admixture anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    how important do you think the red sea is?

    J1e covers the bulk of the red sea admixture anyway
    Exactly Red Sea component is too low in the North. It's around 3-9% . I suspect a South Farmer component in the North too. But it is rather around ~10-15%. And it overlaps with EF.

    I had a mistypo. I am showed with ~37% EF I should however be around ~25%.
    Last edited by Alan; 08-12-15 at 14:58.

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    I asked on the other thread, but I'll try again here. Where is the spreadsheet for population averages for the newest Eurogenes calculator which is showing all this elevated CHG. How can it be evaluated if we can't see how the populations relate to one another.

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    Do you mean the spreadsheet of CHG K8?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I asked on the other thread, but I'll try again here. Where is the spreadsheet for population averages for the newest Eurogenes calculator which is showing all this elevated CHG. How can it be evaluated if we can't see how the populations relate to one another.
    I posted it at the thread I started about Eurogenes CHG K8. It's inside my Spreadsheet with regional results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I posted it at the thread I started about Eurogenes CHG K8. It's inside my Spreadsheet with regional results.
    The info is in gedmatch after you test under the oracle boxes named spreadsheet

    GEDmatch.Com

    Population Spreadsheet for Eurasia K10 CHG.

    the only "italian" for this test is Tuscan .............the only one


    my wife's results come out as bulgarian with spanish which in the dendro seems to be a nearness to North-portuguese/Galician.

    she does have some matches with Veneti who migrated to Galicia in ftdna. But she has many more matches with east-Austria than with the iberian peninsula

    # Population Percent
    1 WHG 33.58
    2 Anatolian_Farmers 26.22
    3 CHG 21.19
    4 EHG 9.37
    5 SW_Asian 8.16
    6 W_African 0.81
    7 Papuan 0.66

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Bulgarian 4.14
    2 Spanish 6.29
    3 Croatian 7.38
    4 Albanian 7.63
    5 French 8.08
    6 Tuscan 8.58
    7 Greek 10.68
    8 French_South 10.95
    9 Hungarian 11.25
    10 English 13.67
    11 Sicilian 14.81
    12 Czech 14.83
    13 Scottish 15.29
    14 Maltese 16.73
    15 Norwegian 17.5
    16 Ukrainian 18.02
    17 Icelandic 18.35
    18 Belarusian 21.74
    19 Sardinian 22.06
    20 Russian 23.55

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 61.3% Bulgarian + 38.7% Spanish @ 1.5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I asked on the other thread, but I'll try again here. Where is the spreadsheet for population averages for the newest Eurogenes calculator which is showing all this elevated CHG. How can it be evaluated if we can't see how the populations relate to one another.
    It shows many Europeans with more or at least equal amount of CHG as EF. That is unlikely imo. CHG should be at least ~1/5 or 1/4 less than EF.

    It also shows EEF(Stuttgart) being ~20% additional WHG instead of 10% as per the Haak paper. Another strong indication that some of the EF ancestry is getting eaten up.

    On the other hand Eurasia K10 CHG gives even far too low scores for EF as well CHG. Even the most EF group of Europe (Sardinians) score only 48%.

    The Spredsheet for Eurogenes K8 CHG is on Fire Heads recent thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I posted it at the thread I started about Eurogenes CHG K8. It's inside my Spreadsheet with regional results.
    Thank you, Fire-Haired,

    I meant a proper spreadsheet with ALL the tested samples, and an Oracle function for all the samples so we can properly evaluate it, like Kurd's. It might be nice and respectful to add the academic samples for southern Italians too. Kurd had no problem getting them. It should be a couple of strokes on the computer.

    Would their results go against some narrative? Or am I getting paranoid considering the history?

    @Alan,
    Just saw your post. Thanks to you too.

    @Sile,
    That's Kurd's calculator. I was asking about the Eurogenes K8 because I thought my question on the K8 thread might not have been seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thank you, Fire-Haired,

    I meant a proper spreadsheet with ALL the tested samples, and an Oracle function for all the samples so we can properly evaluate it, like Kurd's. It might be nice and respectful to add the academic samples for southern Italians too. Kurd had no problem getting them. It should be a couple of strokes on the computer.

    Would their results go against some narrative? Or am I getting paranoid considering the history?

    @Alan,
    Just saw your post. Thanks to you too.

    @Sile,
    That's Kurd's calculator. I was asking about the Eurogenes K8 because I thought my question on the K8 thread might not have been seen.
    Well, whichever calculator you use, Romanians and Bulgarians have just about the same amount of CHG/West Asian as the Tuscans(39-40 on one calculator, 25% on the other.). Albanians have one point more. The Serbs, who are more in the middle and therefore I think got more influence from the Slavic migrations, get around 36% on Kurd's calculator. The mainland Greeks get 44-45% (28% on the other calculator), which is a point or so more than the Sicilians. Northern Italians get about 35%, which is about what Slovenes get. This all has to be explained somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, whichever calculator you use, Romanians and Bulgarians have just about the same amount of CHG/West Asian as the Tuscans(39-40 on one calculator, 25% on the other.). Albanians have one point more. The Serbs, who are more in the middle and therefore I think got more influence from the Slavic migrations, get around 36% on Kurd's calculator. The mainland Greeks get 44-45% (28% on the other calculator), which is a point or so more than the Sicilians. Northern Italians get about 35%, which is about what Slovenes get. This all has to be explained somehow.
    This is also all or most that these calculators are usefull for. As Kurd stated they are usefull to see the inner relationship between modern Eurasian population, because at the end of the day if one calculator shows too much of component A in population x it will also show too much of component A in population y.

    We shouldn't take the percentages too serious and concentrate on the relationship imo.

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    CHG is the new niggaz admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The info is in gedmatch after you test under the oracle boxes named spreadsheet

    GEDmatch.Com

    Population Spreadsheet for Eurasia K10 CHG.

    the only "italian" for this test is Tuscan .............the only one


    my wife's results come out as bulgarian with spanish which in the dendro seems to be a nearness to North-portuguese/Galician.

    she does have some matches with Veneti who migrated to Galicia in ftdna. But she has many more matches with east-Austria than with the iberian peninsula

    # Population Percent
    1 WHG 33.58
    2 Anatolian_Farmers 26.22
    3 CHG 21.19
    4 EHG 9.37
    5 SW_Asian 8.16
    6 W_African 0.81
    7 Papuan 0.66
    Our differences in our results make sense. I think the trends in this test are accurate. Ancients are getting weird results but moderns aren't.

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 WHG 34.86
    2 Anatolian_Farmers 20.68
    3 CHG 19.37
    4 EHG 12.12
    5 SW_Asian 6.93
    6 S_Indian 2.11
    7 Amerindian 1.75
    8 W_African 1.43
    9 Papuan 0.67
    10 E_Asian 0.1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Our differences in our results make sense. I think the trends in this test are accurate. Ancients are getting weird results but moderns aren't.

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 WHG 34.86
    2 Anatolian_Farmers 20.68
    3 CHG 19.37
    4 EHG 12.12
    5 SW_Asian 6.93
    6 S_Indian 2.11
    7 Amerindian 1.75
    8 W_African 1.43
    9 Papuan 0.67
    10 E_Asian 0.1

    that is my wife's numbers and she is AGV002 in the link below
    http://up.picr.de/23840545us.jpg

    What is you opinion on this one?

    since those ancestral clusters are based on very ancient DNA origins (thousands of years) I would expect only slight differences and shifts in populations from the Alpine area.

    I also have my data in the link

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