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Thread: Mesopotamia/Isrealite J2

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    Regular Member Twilight's Avatar
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    Mesopotamia/Isrealite J2

    (Disclaimer: I have no political agenda to gain towards the Isrealites)


    It looks like this is the first time the Isrealites are mentioned explicitly in Eupedia so I figured I might as well set a thread dedicated to them and see where we go from there. I've noticed coincidences between jewish/biblical traditions vs genetics that I thought I'd like to share and with you guys and see where we go from there.


    I've notice via the "Neolithic/Bronze age ydna maps" that haplogroup J first entered the Levant around the time Mesopotamia became a city-state. Jewish tradition states that Abraham from Genesis came from Mesopotamia also. Could Levant J2 and Abraham's holy migration be connected in some way or did J2 enter Isreal for another reason? Also Maciamo has made a good point in saying that J2 is connected to bull worship, if the Isrealites are partly J2 then that might explain why Mose's people decided to worship a golden bull despite Mose's discretion.


    Source:


    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rly_bronze_age
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

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    Israelites were semitic, so not J2 but E-M123
    according to the bible they came from Egypt
    that may be correct, many CanaƤnite tribes had settled in the Nile delta, looking for a job in Egypt

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    Bullworship might indeed be connected to yDNA J2, but by now our understanding of the J family has changed almost completely. It is indeed most likely a introduced Haplogroup into the Levant from further East in the region of the Iranian Plateau, Mesopotamia and the Caucasus. And not an "ancestral component" to the origin of the Israelites.
    Last edited by Alan; 08-12-15 at 22:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Israelites were semitic, so not J2 but E-M123
    according to the bible they came from Egypt
    that may be correct, many CanaƤnite tribes had settled in the Nile delta, looking for a job in Egypt
    Its not as straight forward as that.

    *)There has never been found any traces in the Sinai of the the over a million or so Jews that were freed from slavery to Egypt (as per Torah / old testament) and most scholars have disregarded this story. A million people as the Torah states is a huge number and its impossible not to leave any traces behind.

    *) Abraham came from the settlement of Ur which is in present day Iraq.

    *) Today Jews are mainly a mixture of E's (M-123) and J' (J1's and J2's) I dont think any study has been conducted on the original Jews of Palestine before the return of some diaspora after the creation of Israel Mainly from Europe and America (These groups are known to have much admixture from Europe, and north African Jews had also some Berber admixtures). The original Jews of Palestine would hold a more authentic 'Jewish' dna. However if not mistaken they do not differ much from the general haplogroups of the area (that is the middle east).

    The E's could very well be a much more ancient entry in the near / middle east prior to the creation of the Jewish religion and not an initiation of it. The bible only goes back some 6000 years, Haplogroup mutations and migrations are much older then that.

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    Regular Member Twilight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Its not as straight forward as that.

    *)There has never been found any traces in the Sinai of the the over a million or so Jews that were freed from slavery to Egypt (as per Torah / old testament) and most scholars have disregarded this story. A million people as the Torah states is a huge number and its impossible not to leave any traces behind.

    *) Abraham came from the settlement of Ur which is in present day Iraq.

    *) Today Jews are mainly a mixture of E's (M-123) and J' (J1's and J2's) I dont think any study has been conducted on the original Jews of Palestine before the return of some diaspora after the creation of Israel Mainly from Europe and America (These groups are known to have much admixture from Europe, and north African Jews had also some Berber admixtures). The original Jews of Palestine would hold a more authentic 'Jewish' dna. However if not mistaken they do not differ much from the general haplogroups of the area (that is the middle east).

    The E's could very well be a much more ancient entry in the near / middle east prior to the creation of the Jewish religion and not an initiation of it. The bible only goes back some 6000 years, Haplogroup mutations and migrations are much older then that.
    Pan interesting point, none the less it appears that the Isrealites and Egyptians have had contact with each other. The two cultures seem to have been either hostile or United, the 15th dynasty was even ruled by Hyksos/Cannanites so there might be some grain of truth but we need to at least find a Hyroglyth of either Joseph or Moses to at least give some grain of salt to the Exodus legend.

    http://www.penn.museum/sites/Canaan/Egypt.html
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyks..._of_the_Hyksos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    Pan interesting point, none the less it appears that the Isrealites and Egyptians have had contact with each other. The two cultures seem to have been either hostile or United, the 15th dynasty was even ruled by Hyksos/Cannanites so there might be some grain of truth but we need to at least find a Hyroglyth of either Joseph or Moses to at least give some grain of salt to the Exodus legend.

    http://www.penn.museum/sites/Canaan/Egypt.html
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyks..._of_the_Hyksos
    Jews are known to have existed as a Community and a separate Religion during the iron age with the creation of the King of Judah (some 800BC. im not too sure about this date) These could have been people derived from the Habiru (Hebrew) Nomad tribes which however they are often described as Hittie, Mesopotanian, Cannanite and also Egyptian who were bandits and mercenaries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

    The legend of the Exodus (probably written much much later) is set in the Bronze age when the Jewish religion was not created yet. Probably the whole area at this time was referred to as Canaan and its people Canaanites, (Which comprises today's Lebanon and Israel parts of Iraq and Syria), which Egypt has ruled over for some time. No doubt many must have migrated to Egypt for work since that's were the good jobs were offered.





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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    ...
    *) Abraham came from the settlement of Ur which is in present day Iraq.

    *) Today Jews are mainly a mixture of E's (M-123) and J' (J1's and J2's) I dont think any study has been conducted on the original Jews of Palestine before the return of some diaspora after the creation of Israel Mainly from Europe and America (These groups are known to have much admixture from Europe, and north African Jews had also some Berber admixtures). The original Jews of Palestine would hold a more authentic 'Jewish' dna....
    The E's could very well be a much more ancient entry in the near / middle east prior to the creation of the Jewish religion and not an initiation of it. The bible only goes back some 6000 years, Haplogroup mutations and migrations are much older then that.
    However, the Bible allows for conversion to Judaism, and completion of the process makes one a Jew. This means that even if Abraham was a real person and we could determine his haplogroup, that would only identify the original Jewish population, not serve as a way to say that certain Jews are "not Jewish" because they have another haplogroup.

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    The Israelites were definately part J2, it represents 25% of the Y lines, two of the major Jewish Y lines are even under M67, which is Z482 (Y15222) and Cts2906 (L556) which is a downstream of M92, Cts3261 was also found in Israeli Samaritans.

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