The Spread of Haplogroups in Europe, Especially R1b

[Silesian]

Totally agreed. I suppose there are some controversies towards the "R1B=Cheiftain descent hypothesis" that Maciamo dished out. I suppose it's time to call in the big man. Hey Maciamo, what sources made you jump to the conclusion that R1b established Nobility?

No nobility, just spread of R1b,

Rathlin1: Irish son of German Beakers

http://gifmaker.cc/PlayGIFAnimation....put_UiAUEj.gif
Animated R1b lines East-Steppe and West-Ireland Rathlin1 with Yamnaya results.
courtesy Eurogenes and Srkz/Sergey

[Fire Haired14]

Totally agreed. I suppose there are some controversies towards the "R1B=Cheiftain descent hypothesis" that Maciamo dished out. I suppose it's time to call in the big man. Hey Maciamo, what sources made you jump to the conclusion that R1b established Nobility?

He was mostly right but not totally right. He thinks R1b gradually grew in frequency because royalty/high ranking people have had it in West Europe for 4,000 straight years. He thinks R1b was less popular 2,000 years ago than today. Instead what we're seeing in the British Isles, is a R1b rich population replaced the natives. R1b was the Y DNA of the ordinary people and high ranking people. We're seeing the same trend in Yamnaya, Sintashta, Corded Ware, etc. The royalty thing did happen because 99.999999% of R1a/b lineages of pre-2000 BC Europe went extinct, while a handful of R1a/b lineages thrived. But the royalty stuff must have happened before 2000 BC or slightly afterwards, not all the way up till modern times like Maciamo suggests.

[Silesian]

Are you kidding? Do you think you're in an American university where you can now demand a "safe place" where you won't be discomfited by the opinions of those who disagree with you? You want your own echo chamber? Will people need a special password to enter?

You're not going to find one here. You can "freely discuss" R1b and its clades anywhere that it is the subject of a thread, but don't expect it to be a "safe zone" where you won't be bothered by contrary opinions or have to defend your own.

Oh, and I am offended...just on general principles, since I don't have a yDna and I don't even know what my father carried.

Oy vey, looks like were related- LeBrock posting his line R1b-Z2109+

[Silesian]

Are you kidding? Do you think you're in an American university where you can now demand a "safe place" where you won't be discomfited by the opinions of those who disagree with you? You want your own echo chamber? Will people need a special password to enter?

You're not going to find one here. You can "freely discuss" R1b and its clades anywhere that it is the subject of a thread, but don't expect it to be a "safe zone" where you won't be bothered by contrary opinions or have to defend your own.........

Oy vey, looks like were related- LeBrock posting his line R1b-Z2109+ : )

Oh, and I am offended...just on general principles, since I don't have a yDna and I don't even know what my father carried.

Thank you. We thought there might have been some indiscretion in our paternal family also. That's part of the reason I tested.

[Angela]

Oy vey, looks like were related- LeBrock posting his line R1b-Z2109+ : )



Thank you. We thought there might have been some indiscretion in our paternal family also. That's part of the reason I tested.

Sorry, you lost me. I've never thought there was any "indiscretion" in my family. The family resemblance to both sides is extremely strong, even if my mother had been anything other than a saint. It's just that my father died almost twenty years ago so I couldn't get him tested, and my male paternal line relatives were stubborn about getting tested.

Fwiw, the male lines in my father's area are indeed 60-70% R1b, with a particularly high percentage of U-152, which is probably founder effect, but there are also other haplogroups.

[MOESAN]

Highlands Scotland has greater density of Gaelic names (not only the Mac's!!!), and was more peopled than today; a lot of poor Highlanders migrated to USA, New-Zealand and Canada, and in Canada were even denser in some small regions, keeping on Gaelic language until today;
That said, some appearingly Anglo-saxon names in Scotland are anglicized names of ancient Gaelic names or families (sometimes in some clans it is not the same generation which saw its name transformed/fixed into patronym: some clans have a totally different name in English and in Gaelic!

[Joey37]

Ah, the Ryans. One of them brought my mitochondria across the sea to America. Great-great-grandmother Nellie. Her birth certificate was in English and Gaelic.

[nordicwarrior]

Moore2moore, I enjoyed your posts... you are clearly one smart cookie.

Your thinking on math and demographics is spot on. However I've been watching the fanboys of y-dna here for years and talking sense often doesn't go over well. I have the battle scars to prove it (notice my rating).

So to the audience of these Eupedia "genome brotherhood cults", please allow me to swing my giant battle ax up in here one last time. What haplogroup has historically enslaved R1b while none other could?

Sorry I couldn't resist. Allow the arrows to commence...

[Angela]

Moore2moore, I enjoyed your posts... you are clearly one smart cookie.

Your thinking on math and demographics is spot on. However I've been watching the fanboys of y-dna here for years and talking sense often doesn't go over well. I have the battle scars to prove it (notice my rating).

So to the audience of these Eupedia "genome brotherhood cults", please allow me to swing my giant battle ax up in here one last time. What haplogroup has historically enslaved R1b while none other could?

Sorry I couldn't resist. Allow the arrows to commence...

Who has enslaved R1b carrying people, do you mean?

Well, the most recent example which comes to mind is the Moors, who devastated the coastlines of Southern Europe for hundreds of years, forcing entire cities to move inland. Even in the 19th century America had to send ships to combat the Barbary Pirates.

Then of course there's the Turks who enslaved a lot of them in Central Asia. Ring a bell?

The Vikings, who probably carried a lot of I1, don't you think, did a job on the Celts of Ireland to the best of my recollection. You should know about that. :)

Shall I go on?

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Who has enslaved R1b carrying people, do you mean?

Well, the most recent example which comes to mind is the Moors, who devastated the coastlines of Southern Europe for hundreds of years, forcing entire cities to move inland. Even in the 19th century America had to send ships to combat the Barbary Pirates.

Then of course there's the Turks who enslaved a lot of them in Central Asia. Ring a bell?

The Vikings, who probably carried a lot of I1, don't you think, did a job on the Celts of Ireland to the best of my recollection. You should know about that. :)

Shall I go on?

Obviously he's being an idiot, but historically R1b has been an extremely alpha haplogroup - probably more than any other. If I were to act like idiots like Rethel who view people and societies as haplogroups (I ******* hate these people - threads like "Post your height and Y DNA"...), then I WOULD say f.e. that R1b created the modern world, and PERHAPS acted as rulers in certain parts of the ancient world.

Again, to act like Rethel, R1b is clearly more of an alpha haplogroup than something like G2a or E-V13.

Just playing Devil's advocate...

[Angela]

Obviously he's being an idiot, but historically R1b has been an extremely alpha haplogroup - probably more than any other. If I were to act like idiots like Rethel who view people and societies as haplogroups (I ******* hate these people - threads like "Post your height and Y DNA"...), then I WOULD say f.e. that R1b created the modern world, and PERHAPS acted as rulers in certain parts of the ancient world.

Again, to act like Rethel, R1b is clearly more of an alpha haplogroup than something like G2a or E-V13.

Just playing Devil's advocate...

Doesn't it all depend on the time period and the area? I think you should broaden your lens both geographically and temporally.

Ydna "E" may have arisen in the Near East, but it went on to dominate all of Africa to this day and one offshoot remains important in Europe, just not your part of Europe.

For thousands of years G2a ruled the roost in Anatolia and Europe. You're guilty of looking only at one part of Europe and only after a certain point. What about the story of R1a in Eastern Europe, or South Asia?

J2 was very important in the Near East and then moved into Europe. J1 also became very dominant in the Middle East and down into Africa, both North Africa and East Africa.

That's why this is all nonsense and I usually ignore it as not worthy of notice. People without a broad education really aren't capable of making meaningful comparisons about anything, including this.

I agree with you about the height thing. I've mostly ignored that thread. It's like little boys having a pissing contest. The latter, in fact, makes more sense. When length matters men are usually horizontal and it's not their height which interests most women, to be crude about it, and no, there's not usually a direct correspondence, or at least so I've been told.

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Doesn't it all depend on the time period and the area? I think you should broaden your lens both geographically and temporally.

Ydna "E" may have arisen in the Near East, but it went on to dominate all of Africa to this day and one offshoot remains important in Europe, just not your part of Europe.

For thousands of years G2a ruled the roost in Anatolia and Europe. You're guilty of looking only at one part of Europe and only after a certain point. What about the story of R1a in Eastern Europe, or South Asia?

J2 was very important in the Near East and then moved into Europe. J1 also became very dominant in the Middle East and down into Africa, both North Africa and East Africa.

That's why this is all nonsense and I usually ignore it as not worthy of notice. People without a broad education really aren't capable of making meaningful comparisons about anything, including this.

I agree with you about the height thing. I've mostly ignored that thread. It's like little boys having a pissing contest. The latter, in fact, makes more sense. When length matters men are usually horizontal and it's not their height which interests most women, to be crude about it, and no, there's not usually a direct correspondence, or at least so I've been told.

They did rule the roost, but only in the sense of rabbits or lambs. They were a peaceful farmer people who tended to stick to themselves along rivers but gradually began to assimilate native and much more primitive hunter-gatherer folk (this sounds stupid but I have an actual contempt for WHG lol, they basically never achieved anything other than being meat machines) as they strayed further away from the Middle East (or at least, that's the story I'm aware of). R1b (also R1a too) basically brutally conquered and enslaved these guys in caste systems - I don't fully get why that's a thing to be proud of, but they were clearly more alpha, and more like lions and tigers than rabbits or lambs (don't analyse that too much!).

J2 is pretty "alpha" too, and probably the most sophisticated Y DNA, or at least it can be best associated with urban centres and civilisation, as well as (pretty much) everything in the early to early-mid stages of the Civ 5 tech tree. They're the owls.

But yeah, this whole thing is ******* stupid, obviously...

And seeing as you're going down that path, and I won't bother trying to be as eloquent as you... the only correspondence is with pre-inflated length, but blood supply is more important for the length that counts.

[Angela]

They did rule the roost, but only in the sense of rabbits or lambs. They were a peaceful farmer people who tended to stick to themselves along rivers but gradually began to assimilate native and much more primitive hunter-gatherer folk (this sounds stupid but I have an actual contempt for WHG lol, they basically never achieved anything other than being meat machines) as they strayed further away from the Middle East (or at least, that's the story I'm aware of). R1b (also R1a too) basically brutally conquered and enslaved these guys in caste systems - I don't fully get why that's a thing to be proud of, but they were clearly more alpha, and more like lions and tigers than rabbits or lambs (don't analyse that too much!).

J2 is pretty "alpha" too, and probably the most sophisticated Y DNA, or at least it can be best associated with urban centres and civilisation, as well as (pretty much) everything in the early to early-mid stages of the Civ 5 tech tree. They're the owls.

But yeah, this whole thing is ******* stupid, obviously...

And seeing as you're going down that path, and I won't bother trying to be as eloquent as you... the only correspondence is with pre-inflated length, but blood supply is more important for the length that counts.

That's quite incorrect. We don't know if they fought the local WHG folk, although we do know of WHG like people who were in a very low position in their settlements (see the Gamba et al paper). If they didn't it may be that it wasn't necessary.

The level of violence in later Neolithic groups is quite extreme. I don't have time to look it up for you. Just use the search engine. We've discussed it numerous times.

You didn't get the Nordicist memo it seems. They love to point out how violent the farmers were. :)

[Angela]

Romans conquered all , except the natives of the Emerald Isle!! And the Picts north of 55' latitude!
not sure if they are all R1b ?

If you don't know the answer to that question perhaps you shouldn't be so vehemently pontificating about topics related to genetics.

No, they were by no means all R1b.

Read the definition of "ignore" please!

Keep a civil tongue in your head or you're going to be out of here in short order.

Acting like a jerk may be acceptable on certain sites, but not here.

Clear enough?