The Spread of Haplogroups in Europe, Especially R1b

Hot off the press comes a paper that seems to my very amateur layperson's eye to confirm much of what I posted above.

The authors state

-that R1b in Ireland seems scientifically correlated with LP, such that they do believe the R1b spread was causation.

-That the most logical conclusion is that Beaker people were the transmitters.

-That massive immigration from population upheavals in the east was the likely reason for these new genes to enter Ireland, i.e., not a small number of elites.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113.full.pdf
 
Hot off the press comes a paper that seems to my very amateur layperson's eye to confirm much of what I posted above.

The authors state

-that R1b in Ireland seems scientifically correlated with LP, such that they do believe the R1b spread was causation.

-That the most logical conclusion is that Beaker people were the transmitters.

-That massive immigration from population upheavals in the east was the likely reason for these new genes to enter Ireland, i.e., not a small number of elites.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113.full.pdf

It does correlates for Ireland, however it could be coincidental. R1b in Ireland also correlates with Catholic Faith, right? Though nobody claims that R1b invented Catholicism.

Here is LP map:
lactase-hotspots2.jpg

It correlates well for Ireland, not that well for Iberia and terribly for Northern Italy.

Haplogroup_R1b-borders.png




Regardless of the maps above, I think that R1b didn't need to be the "inventor" of LP, but at the time they got to the Ireland they could have carried substantial amount of it from mixing with other populations, even farmers of central Europe. Mind you that R1b was present for possibly 1,000 years in continental Europe before hopping to Ireland. Once they acquired LP it has spread through their population due to their lifestyle like herding and living in Northern Latitude, via means of natural selection.
 
It does correlates for Ireland, however it could be coincidental. R1b in Ireland also correlates with Catholic Faith, right? Though nobody claims that R1b invented Catholicism.

Regardless of the maps above, I think that R1b didn't need to be the "inventor" of LP, but at the time they got to the Ireland they could have carried substantial amount of it from mixing with other populations, even farmers of central Europe. Mind you that R1b was present for possibly 1,000 years in continental Europe before hopping to Ireland. Once they acquired LP it has spread through their population due to their lifestyle like herding and living in Northern Latitude, via means of natural selection.

You lost me on the first point. Are you trying to say Catholicism is a gene? Because both the R1b mutation and LP are.

Your maps by the way show non-Euro LP, which is controlled by entirely different genes.

On your last point, finally we find something on which we can agree.
 
I'm going to give it one last try. You stated in one of your original posts that the LP derived snps came from the steppe. We have no indication that is the case because no analyzed sample from the steppe has yet been found to carry the LP gene. The proof may show up in a sample tomorrow, butas of now it doesn't exist, so your statement was incorrect.

At some point, Eastern Bell Beakers picked it up
. No one has ever denied that. In fact, numerous posters pointed it out. We don't know from whom they picked it up. It could have been from a farming population in Central Europe, which would make sense given how long they'd been making cheese, or from some unknown and unsampled area of the steppe.
We just don't know yet.

Once they had picked it up, it proved valuable, so natural selection operated upon it. No one has ever denied that. It just isn't what you originally said. Surely you can see the difference.

It also was a long process, with only a minority of the Irish Bronze samples even heterozygous for LP, as you would know if you had carefully read the new paper on the Irish Bronze Age.

As for LeBrok's maps, I assure you that the LP derived snps in Europe are indeed the "European" version, so the map accurately reflects the distribution of that European version of LP in Europe. Parts of northern Italy that have upwards of 50% R1b are very low in LP, lower than the parts of southern Italy that have barely 30% R1b.
 
It also was a long process, with only a minority of the Irish Bronze samples even heterozygous for LP, as you would know if you had carefully read the new paper on the Irish Bronze Age.
Good point, at 90% LP level today most Irish surely have derived homozygous version of this gene.

As for LeBrok's maps, I assure you that the LP derived snps in Europe are indeed the "European" version, so the map accurately reflects the distribution of that European version of LP in Europe. Parts of northern Italy that have upwards of 50% R1b are very low in LP, lower than the parts of southern Italy that have barely 30% R1b.
I assumed he will know.
 
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You lost me on the first point. Are you trying to say Catholicism is a gene? Because both the R1b mutation and LP are.
It was an example of accidental correlation. A very obvious one for the clarity of the phenomenon. Sorry to confuse you.
 
You lost me on the first point. Are you trying to say Catholicism is a gene? Because both the R1b mutation and LP are....

It is interesting, though, that Protestantism in Ireland (and also Scotland to some extent) tends to be most prominent in areas with higher I1-bearing Anglo-Saxon and Norse influence, but I think the correlation is more cultural (via social, political, and linguistic ties with England and Scandinavia) than genetic per se. This is similar to how language does have some striking correlations with haplogroups, but exceptions (where one flowed without the other) are plentiful. Look at Poland, which is heavily R1a with relatively little R1b but is strongly Catholic, while other R1a-majority areas tend to follow other religions.

It would be nice if another valued R1b member like Maciamo, could weigh in on what he currently thinks about lactose gene and spread of R1b. Please, no offense to non R1b members, or those who do not know their ancestry. Just a humble dialogue/exchange in the West German dialect known as English, between members/genetic brothers/bond, with the same paternal ancestry [R1b]. The current thinking on directional spread ?

I think there is cause to believe that the (largely R1b-bearing) Celtic culture, with its heavy emphasis on livestock raising, contributed to positive selection for lactose tolerance, but I don't see any evidence that R1b people "invented" lactose tolerance or anything like that.
 
I think there is cause to believe that the (largely R1b-bearing) Celtic culture, with its heavy emphasis on livestock raising, contributed to positive selection for lactose tolerance, but I don't see any evidence that R1b people "invented" lactose tolerance or anything like that.

Since we are both members of something a little larger namely, the spread of both R1a and R1b ancestors, I think there may be some more mutations beside lactose[I'm double positive btw for that mutation]. However, as for other snp variance/differences;I don't really want any busybodies to lose any sleep in what they don't know. This was a bumper year for both R1b and R1a in field results, so let's just wait and see what the future has in store. There seems to be a nice supply of grave sites/data, that both R1b and R1a clans can look forward to in the future. It still would be interesting to have King Tut's results officially released too; I always wondered if the rumor was true.
 
It would be nice if another valued R1b member like Maciamo, could weigh in on what he currently thinks about lactose gene and spread of R1b. Please, no offense to non R1b members, or those who do not know their ancestry. Just a humble dialogue/exchange in the West German dialect known as English, between members/genetic brothers/bond, with the same paternal ancestry [R1b]. The current thinking on directional spread ?

Totally agreed. I suppose there are some controversies towards the "R1B=Cheiftain descent hypothesis" that Maciamo dished out. I suppose it's time to call in the big man. Hey Maciamo, what sources made you jump to the conclusion that R1b established Nobility?
 
And this folks, is why folks are working so hard to inject science back into the debate. The use of the word "conquest" presupposes the outcome. It is no longer a hypothesis at that point, but a conclusion. And it is a conclusory statement, in and of itself.This started out as a thread on mathematics and demographics. The material on horses and such is slightly off topic. :) But when someone just says, "no, so there" like above without any evidence or citations, it is a bit frustrating.Let's try again: imagine for a moment there wasn't a conquest. Imagine instead that there were people who fled for whatever reason. Maybe it was the onslaught of R1a people into where R1b people originated. Then entertain me by imagining that they picked up a genetic advantage on the way, which was the ability to digest milk (or simply a ready supply of meat when the megafauna that others relied on were in short supply). Or simply that they had greater initial numbers, and that their lifestyle allowed for more children to be born. This model is far, far more consistent than the notion that after wandering for centuries, the tribe was pure enough to "conquer" Ireland (by boat!, these steppe nomads!) in such numbers that Ireland is 80+% R1b.No way. Drift and demography explain what conquering and conquest cannot.A far better model is the one originally proposed in this post. It relies on math and logic. I suggest a re-read and I welcome comments on point.
No offense but I don't recall stating that R1b was pure, of course people interbreed. I appologize if I'm coming across as a Nazi for I don't mean too. I have to disagree personally with the R1b=lactose tolerance hypothesis for I admit I'm a lactose intolerant myself and I highly doubt one child could have inherited 100% from his Father and 0% inheritance from his/her mother. But I do recall 23andme claiming that certain snps caused Lactose tolerance.http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Lactose_intolerance
 
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Totally agreed. I suppose there are some controversies towards the "R1B=Cheiftain descent hypothesis" that Maciamo dished out. I suppose it's time to call in the big man. Hey Maciamo, what sources made you jump to the conclusion that R1b established Nobility?

e97903629173.png

No nobility, just spread of R1b,
http://gifmaker.cc/PlayGIFAnimation...RxhA2Cdu6JOpC96wl1zWrP&file=output_UiAUEj.gif
Animated R1b lines East-Steppe and West-Ireland Rathlin1 with Yamnaya results.
courtesy Eurogenes and Srkz/Sergey
 
Totally agreed. I suppose there are some controversies towards the "R1B=Cheiftain descent hypothesis" that Maciamo dished out. I suppose it's time to call in the big man. Hey Maciamo, what sources made you jump to the conclusion that R1b established Nobility?

He was mostly right but not totally right. He thinks R1b gradually grew in frequency because royalty/high ranking people have had it in West Europe for 4,000 straight years. He thinks R1b was less popular 2,000 years ago than today. Instead what we're seeing in the British Isles, is a R1b rich population replaced the natives. R1b was the Y DNA of the ordinary people and high ranking people. We're seeing the same trend in Yamnaya, Sintashta, Corded Ware, etc. The royalty thing did happen because 99.999999% of R1a/b lineages of pre-2000 BC Europe went extinct, while a handful of R1a/b lineages thrived. But the royalty stuff must have happened before 2000 BC or slightly afterwards, not all the way up till modern times like Maciamo suggests.
 
Are you kidding? Do you think you're in an American university where you can now demand a "safe place" where you won't be discomfited by the opinions of those who disagree with you? You want your own echo chamber? Will people need a special password to enter?

You're not going to find one here. You can "freely discuss" R1b and its clades anywhere that it is the subject of a thread, but don't expect it to be a "safe zone" where you won't be bothered by contrary opinions or have to defend your own.

Oh, and I am offended...just on general principles, since I don't have a yDna and I don't even know what my father carried.
Oy vey, looks like were related- LeBrock posting his line R1b-Z2109+
 
Are you kidding? Do you think you're in an American university where you can now demand a "safe place" where you won't be discomfited by the opinions of those who disagree with you? You want your own echo chamber? Will people need a special password to enter?

You're not going to find one here. You can "freely discuss" R1b and its clades anywhere that it is the subject of a thread, but don't expect it to be a "safe zone" where you won't be bothered by contrary opinions or have to defend your own.........
Oy vey, looks like were related- LeBrock posting his line R1b-Z2109+ : )

Oh, and I am offended...just on general principles, since I don't have a yDna and I don't even know what my father carried.

Thank you. We thought there might have been some indiscretion in our paternal family also. That's part of the reason I tested.:)
 
Oy vey, looks like were related- LeBrock posting his line R1b-Z2109+ : )



Thank you. We thought there might have been some indiscretion in our paternal family also. That's part of the reason I tested.:)

Sorry, you lost me. I've never thought there was any "indiscretion" in my family. The family resemblance to both sides is extremely strong, even if my mother had been anything other than a saint. It's just that my father died almost twenty years ago so I couldn't get him tested, and my male paternal line relatives were stubborn about getting tested.

Fwiw, the male lines in my father's area are indeed 60-70% R1b, with a particularly high percentage of U-152, which is probably founder effect, but there are also other haplogroups.
 
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Highlands Scotland has greater density of Gaelic names (not only the Mac's!!!), and was more peopled than today; a lot of poor Highlanders migrated to USA, New-Zealand and Canada, and in Canada were even denser in some small regions, keeping on Gaelic language until today;
That said, some appearingly Anglo-saxon names in Scotland are anglicized names of ancient Gaelic names or families (sometimes in some clans it is not the same generation which saw its name transformed/fixed into patronym: some clans have a totally different name in English and in Gaelic!
 
Ah, the Ryans. One of them brought my mitochondria across the sea to America. Great-great-grandmother Nellie. Her birth certificate was in English and Gaelic.
 
Moore2moore, I enjoyed your posts... you are clearly one smart cookie.

Your thinking on math and demographics is spot on. However I've been watching the fanboys of y-dna here for years and talking sense often doesn't go over well. I have the battle scars to prove it (notice my rating).

So to the audience of these Eupedia "genome brotherhood cults", please allow me to swing my giant battle ax up in here one last time. What haplogroup has historically enslaved R1b while none other could?

Sorry I couldn't resist. Allow the arrows to commence...
 
Moore2moore, I enjoyed your posts... you are clearly one smart cookie.

Your thinking on math and demographics is spot on. However I've been watching the fanboys of y-dna here for years and talking sense often doesn't go over well. I have the battle scars to prove it (notice my rating).

So to the audience of these Eupedia "genome brotherhood cults", please allow me to swing my giant battle ax up in here one last time. What haplogroup has historically enslaved R1b while none other could?

Sorry I couldn't resist. Allow the arrows to commence...

Who has enslaved R1b carrying people, do you mean?

Well, the most recent example which comes to mind is the Moors, who devastated the coastlines of Southern Europe for hundreds of years, forcing entire cities to move inland. Even in the 19th century America had to send ships to combat the Barbary Pirates.

Then of course there's the Turks who enslaved a lot of them in Central Asia. Ring a bell?

The Vikings, who probably carried a lot of I1, don't you think, did a job on the Celts of Ireland to the best of my recollection. You should know about that. :)

Shall I go on?
 
Who has enslaved R1b carrying people, do you mean?

Well, the most recent example which comes to mind is the Moors, who devastated the coastlines of Southern Europe for hundreds of years, forcing entire cities to move inland. Even in the 19th century America had to send ships to combat the Barbary Pirates.

Then of course there's the Turks who enslaved a lot of them in Central Asia. Ring a bell?

The Vikings, who probably carried a lot of I1, don't you think, did a job on the Celts of Ireland to the best of my recollection. You should know about that. :)

Shall I go on?

Obviously he's being an idiot, but historically R1b has been an extremely alpha haplogroup - probably more than any other. If I were to act like idiots like Rethel who view people and societies as haplogroups (I ******* hate these people - threads like "Post your height and Y DNA"...), then I WOULD say f.e. that R1b created the modern world, and PERHAPS acted as rulers in certain parts of the ancient world.

Again, to act like Rethel, R1b is clearly more of an alpha haplogroup than something like G2a or E-V13.

Just playing Devil's advocate...
 

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