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Thread: Illyrian-Slovenian: Messapic/Illyrian descendants of Slovenian, studies of Slovenia

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    Illyrian-Slovenian: Messapic/Illyrian descendants of Slovenian, studies of Slovenia



    Several nations in the Balkans claim that they are descendants of Illyrians: mostly Slovenians, Bosniacs and Albanians.

    In 19th century Croats and Serbs claimed that they are descendants of Illyrians but today these nations are watching others.

    Illyrians lived in todays Slovenia, Panonia plain, Western Serbia, Istria, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Northern Albania.

    Here are little examples studies from Slovenian researchers in which they are prove that Slovenians are direct descendants of Illyrians.

    These are linguistic studies.

    In this threads we show how Slovenian researchers based on Messapic inscriptions prove that Messapic, Venetic and Illyrian are descendants of Slovenian.

    Here is implied that Messapic and Illyrian are same linguistic branch.

    For Messapic, nearly 350 inscriptions were found in South-Eastern Italy, which are quite short.

    Slovenian researchers analyzed these inscriptions and they consider it is proven Messapic inscriptions are in accordance with Slovenian.

    We will give several examples from Slovenian studies.

    Inscriptions:

    196
    ARTOSATOTIO[S]TAIΘOITAIGUNAKHAIPENSKLENXUPAVE

    198
    ASSTAIZALLES/ILIRAILAZOVA





    One of Slovenian books in which they claim that Slovenian is descendants of Illyrian/Messapic/Venetian

    Vodopivec, Older Slovenian ethnogenesis (Starejša slovenska etnogeneza) , Jutro, 2010

    About book, Dr. Anton Mavretič

    “This book has three main parts representing a complete whole archaeological views of the collection system and treatment of Illyrian language. The most important part of understanding extends also to Illyrian – Slovenian inscriptions, which are the most numerous Messapic inscriptions, which were written by people at the eastern end of the Apennine Peninsula. The breadth and clarity of these inscriptions testify to our indigenous roots also in the whole area of the Adriatic Sea, which in Roman times called Illyria.”

    For Vodopivec:
    Venetian and Messapic languages are antique proto-Slavic languages as their inscriptions are understandable in the Slovenian language,
    Historically and linguistically is incorrect link Illyrian with Albanian, Illyrian languages majority representing Slavic languages,
    Also Etruscan, Rhaetic and Old Thracian are understandable in Slovenian language.

    Messapic inscriptions can be read in Slovenian, Vodopivec shows how:

    Example from above

    ARTOSATOTIO[S]TAIΘOITAIGUNAKHAIPENSKLENXUPAVE

    According to Slovenian researchers: added letter S, H is sound E, uncnown X can be D, L, A, and D is between Pensklen and Upave.
    Text is now:

    AR T OS ATO TI OSTAI TOI TAI GUNAK EAI EN SKLEN D UPAVE.
    Slov. Mlad tu ostani ati, tu doli ostani junak, aja a mi sklenemo da upamo.

    Eng. Young stay here daddy, stay down here the hero, you lie but we conclude to hope.

    Glosar:
    AR jar, mlad; young
    T t, (tu); here
    OS osti, ostani; remain
    ATO ato, ati; father
    TI ti; you
    OSTAI ostaj, ostani; remain
    TOI toj, tvoj; your
    TAI, tai, ta; your
    GUNAK junak; hero
    EAI aja; lie
    P p, pa (quick); and
    EN en; one
    SKLEN skleni; decide
    D d, da; that
    UPAVE upave, upamo; hope
    VE; ve; know
    R
    OS osti, ostani; remain
    TAI, taj, ta, tu; this
    a S, SI; you are
    S s, si you are
    KLEN klen; vigorous
    UPA, Upati, hope
    Ve, ve, know.

    ...
    ASSTAIZALLES/ILIRAILAZOVA

    AS S TAI ZALLES ILIR AI LAZI OVA

    Ko s tem zalijes Ilir aja lezi tu.

    R

    AS STAI ZALLES ILI RAI LAZI OVA

    Ali stoje zaliješ ali raje ležiš tu.

    Do you prefer to drink standing or prefer to lie here.

    AS ak, ko; eng. when
    S s; with
    TAI tai, tem; this
    ZALLES zalijes; drnk up
    ILIR Ilir; Ilir
    AI ai, aja; lie
    LAZI lazi, lezi; lie down
    OVA ova, ta; thia, here
    R
    STAI stai, stoj, stoje; stand
    ZALLES zalijes; drink up
    ILI ili, ali; or
    RAI raj, raje, rajsi; rather
    LAZI lazi, lezi; lie down
    OVA ova, ta, tu; thia, here

    ...
    Example dictionary Illyrian-Slovenian

    http://fishcalledsanda.blogspot.rs/2...ocabulary.html

    Letter L

    L l, le – okr, SN, SK just
    L leži – okr, SK lie
    L l, lej, glej – okr, SN, SK see
    LA le – preg, SK just
    LAD lad, hlad, hladen – okr, SN, SK cold
    LAE le – SK just
    LAEIKA lahka, lahko – preg, SK light, could
    LAI lej, glej – okr, SN, SK see
    LAIS ležiš – okr, SK lie
    LAM lam, lomi – okr, preg, SN, SK break
    LAN lan, lani – okr, SN, SK last year
    LAS les, sem – preg, SN, SK here
    LASO les, sem – preg, SN, SK here
    LASTI lasti – SK property, claim
    LAZI lazi, lezi – preg, SN, SK lie down
    LE le – SK just
    LEGIA legia, legla – preg, SN, SK lay down
    LEI lej, glej, okr, SN, SK see
    LETA leta – SK years
    LETOS letos – SK this year
    LI li, le – preg, SN, SK just
    LIAT ljet, let – SN, SK years
    LIB lib, lep, ljub – preg, SN, SK nice, dear
    LIBA lib, lep, ljub – preg, SN, SK nice, dear
    LIBBI libi, ljubi – okr, SN, SK dear
    LIP lip, lep – preg, SN, SK nice
    LITI liti, leta – preg, SN, SK years
    LL l, le – preg, SN, SK just
    LO le – preg, SK just
    LOAN lon, dar – SN, SK gift
    LOEZIS ležiš – preg, SK you lie
    LOI loj – SK suet
    LOI loj, lej, glej – SN, SK see
    LOMIA lomil – preg, SK break
    LON lon, dar – SN, SK gift
    LONA lona, daru – SN, SK gift
    LPA lpa, lepa – okr, SN, SK nice
    LPE lpe, lepo – okr, SN, SK nice
    LTE lejte, glejte – okr, SN, SK see

    ...
    Only several admonitons among much more possible

    1. Slovenian researchers highlight that Messapic = Illyrian

    But world liguistists don't think so

    Fortson, 2010 (2 ed.), 2004 (I ed.)
    Indo-European language and culture: An introduction

    "Two untestable hypotheses about Illyrian's connection to other languages are widely held: that Illyrian is same as or closely related to Messapic, and that Illyrian is the ancestor of Albanian. The first hypothesis is based on the close cultural connections between the Messapians and Illyrians, and on certain similarities between some linguistic elements. The second hypothesis has very little, if any, linguistic support, but makes geographic sense... The possible relationship to Messapic does not help, for the Messapic inscription evince no obvious similarities to Albanians."

    Dr. Forston very clearly say that is untestable hypothesis that Illyirian is same as or closely related to Messapic.

    2. Slovenian researchers say very little about wider context, without it someone can be confused.

    This include: hystorical, archaeological, genetic etc. aspects.

    For example Y-DNA in Apullia where Messapic language was spoken are different in comparison with Slovenia and Western Balkans generally.

    3. Slovenian researchers are strictly against theories about migrations of people. They say that for migrations of people have no proofs. This means that Slovenias live in Slovenia in continuity. But what about Illyrians in Bosnia, Western Serbia, Panonia Plain etc.? Are all of them are descendants of Slovenians? What about human knowledge that migrations existed in human history. Humans migrated due to many factors such as changing climate and landscape, inadequate food supply etc. What about migration period and Barbarian invasions etc. Slovenian researchers deny it and give their arguments, again wider context is missing and reader cannot adequately assess whether Slovenian researchers offered arguments for their claims.
    ...

    Contribution from Sile:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Archaeologist Perego has found the oldest presence of Venetic people from ~1200BC ............maybe you should read her analysis. She is posted in a
    university in the UK


    https://mefra.revues.org/2503
    ...

    And one of contemporary Slovenian archaeologist:

    Marjeta Šašel Kos, Institute of Archaeology, Ljubljana:

    "The Veneti and the Illyrians – in particular the latter – have a long and heterogeneous history, which has, interestingly, even been exploited in the modern age for pseudo-historical and political purposes. It is not the scope of this contribution to present a systematic bibliography concerning these two problems and illustrating the abuse of ancient sources and their data for the ethnogenesis of the Slovenians and Albanians, let alone to list other similar examples of “false identities”, since the two cases are not only ones."

    ...
    This is enough for opening and stimulating discussion.

    I would like that Slovenian members take participation in discussion, it would be useful and helpful that everyone acquires more knowledge about threads.

    Besides, Slovenians can provide new sources which are here not mentoined.

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    http://tyche-journal.at/tyche/index....iew/74/html_51

    from Oderzo in Veneto, Italy to Emona in western slovenia where pockets of Illyrian settlements or illyrian and venetic shared some vocubulary
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    http://tyche-journal.at/tyche/index....iew/74/html_51

    from Oderzo in Veneto, Italy to Emona in western slovenia where pockets of Illyrian settlements or illyrian and venetic shared some vocubulary
    Sile, what do you think?

    Maybe Slovenian researchers equated Vendi and Venetians?

    In Encyclopedia of European Peoples by Waldman & Mason we can see:

    Venedi (Vendes, Venedes, Venedae, Vendi, Venets, Veneti, Venethi, Vinedi, Venetkeni, Wenets, Wenetes, Winidi, Enetoi) = Slavic

    Veneti (Venetii, Venethi, Venetians) = Illyrian

    Venetii (Venites, Veneti, Veniti) = Celtic

    Because somewhere these people have same or very similar name, comes to confusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Sile, what do you think?

    Maybe Slovenian researchers equated Vendi and Venetians?

    In Encyclopedia of European Peoples by Waldman & Mason we can see:

    Venedi (Vendes, Venedes, Venedae, Vendi, Venets, Veneti, Venethi, Vinedi, Venetkeni, Wenets, Wenetes, Winidi, Enetoi) = Slavic

    Veneti (Venetii, Venethi, Venetians) = Illyrian

    Venetii (Venites, Veneti, Veniti) = Celtic

    Because somewhere these people have same or very similar name, comes to confusion.

    I do not know

    you better talk to Piero .............who is on this forum...........see under veneti thread )
    he wrote a book

    https://books.google.com.au/books?id...8JBOUQ6AEIGzAA

    and discuss with him..................he states the brittay, adriatic and baltic Veneti are all related

    BTW, he speaks english

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    Make some empty space in your inbox garrick, i wanna to send u a private message.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dule84 View Post
    Make some empty space in your inbox garrick, i wanna to send u a private message.
    When different tribes/peoples came to the Western Balkans and Pannonian plain they surely mixed with domicile population, among other, there probably were successors of Illyrian tribes, however they have lost their languages because they were Romanized.

    So in Slovenes, Bosniacs, Serbs, Croats, Greeks, Albanians, etc., even Hungarians, can be Illyrian bood.

    And if some Slovenian scholar says that Slovenes have Illyrian blood it is not fully incorrect.

    But this is doesn't matter because in political, linguistical terms etc., Illyrians didn't exist more.

    Because they were fully Romanized, they have become strongly commited for Roman empire, and they gave many emperors for that empire.

    This simple and bare truth unfortunately some people, for different reasons, including nationalistic, don't want to see, and we must explain 100 times, same things.

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    As early as Emperor Diocletian started changing geographical names of rivers mountains cities etc from latin to slavic. Church rewrote 'history' with primary idea to supress slavic heritage and its influence on european history culture and language. Also check out italo-dalmatian brench of IE language and how it fits anatolian theory. We've been robbed beyond imagination.

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    Question Curious about my heritage/Cheryl Krkoc

    I just wrote a little something about my Slovenian/Croatian heritage. I don't know if it was saved in this spot so I'll try again. My grandparents came from Slovenia/Littoral region to the United States after WWI along with other relatives and settled in the Chicago area. Others emigrated from Slovenian Littoral near Gorica (or Gorizia) in 1910. Later on, relatives immigrated to South America/Buenos Aires after WWII. I have been to Slovenia, Croatia and Italy. I have information that my family there lived near Verona in what is now Italy earlier on and also in Ajdovscina
    near Istrian Penninsula. I have read Veneti First Builders of European Community with great interest. Some believe this book to be unconvincing but I found it compelling. Is it possible that there is bias against these authors' (Jozko Savli/Matej Bor/Ivan Tomazic) theories? Cheryl Krkoc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    But this is doesn't matter because in political, linguistical terms etc., Illyrians didn't exist more.

    Because they were fully Romanized, they have become strongly commited for Roman empire, and they gave many emperors for that empire.

    This simple and bare truth unfortunately some people, for different reasons, including nationalistic, don't want to see, and we must explain 100 times, same things.
    So now Slovenian theories being wrong equals Illyrians having gone culturally, linguistically and politically extinct. Such sound logic!

    What a waste of a post just to unsuccessfully try to justify your predetermined conclusion.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheryl Krkoc View Post
    I just wrote a little something about my Slovenian/Croatian heritage. I don't know if it was saved in this spot so I'll try again. My grandparents came from Slovenia/Littoral region to the United States after WWI along with other relatives and settled in the Chicago area. Others emigrated from Slovenian Littoral near Gorica (or Gorizia) in 1910. Later on, relatives immigrated to South America/Buenos Aires after WWII. I have been to Slovenia, Croatia and Italy. I have information that my family there lived near Verona in what is now Italy earlier on and also in Ajdovscina
    near Istrian Penninsula. I have read Veneti First Builders of European Community with great interest. Some believe this book to be unconvincing but I found it compelling. Is it possible that there is bias against these authors' (Jozko Savli/Matej Bor/Ivan Tomazic) theories? Cheryl Krkoc
    The Veneti lived almost a thousand years before the Proto-Slavs expanded, and their language was typologically close to the other Central European IE languages. Modern Slovenes are genetically & linguistically Slavic. There's no bias, those authors are quite simply deluded.

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