Several nations in the Balkans claim that they are descendants of Illyrians: mostly Slovenians, Bosniacs and Albanians.
In 19th century Croats and Serbs claimed that they are descendants of Illyrians but today these nations are watching others.
Illyrians lived in todays Slovenia, Panonia plain, Western Serbia, Istria, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Northern Albania.
Here are little examples studies from Slovenian researchers in which they are prove that Slovenians are direct descendants of Illyrians.
These are linguistic studies.
In this threads we show how Slovenian researchers based on Messapic inscriptions prove that Messapic, Venetic and Illyrian are descendants of Slovenian.
Here is implied that Messapic and Illyrian are same linguistic branch.
For Messapic, nearly 350 inscriptions were found in South-Eastern Italy, which are quite short.
Slovenian researchers analyzed these inscriptions and they consider it is proven Messapic inscriptions are in accordance with Slovenian.
We will give several examples from Slovenian studies.
Inscriptions:
196
ARTOSATOTIOTAIΘOITAIGUNAKHAIPENSKLENXUPAVE
198
ASSTAIZALLES/ILIRAILAZOVA
One of Slovenian books in which they claim that Slovenian is descendants of Illyrian/Messapic/Venetian
Vodopivec, Older Slovenian ethnogenesis (Starejša slovenska etnogeneza) , Jutro, 2010
About book, Dr. Anton Mavretič
“This book has three main parts representing a complete whole archaeological views of the collection system and treatment of Illyrian language. The most important part of understanding extends also to Illyrian – Slovenian inscriptions, which are the most numerous Messapic inscriptions, which were written by people at the eastern end of the Apennine Peninsula. The breadth and clarity of these inscriptions testify to our indigenous roots also in the whole area of the Adriatic Sea, which in Roman times called Illyria.”
For Vodopivec:
Venetian and Messapic languages are antique proto-Slavic languages as their inscriptions are understandable in the Slovenian language,
Historically and linguistically is incorrect link Illyrian with Albanian, Illyrian languages majority representing Slavic languages,
Also Etruscan, Rhaetic and Old Thracian are understandable in Slovenian language.
Messapic inscriptions can be read in Slovenian, Vodopivec shows how:
Example from above
ARTOSATOTIOTAIΘOITAIGUNAKHAIPENSKLENXUPAVE
According to Slovenian researchers: added letter S, H is sound E, uncnown X can be D, L, A, and D is between Pensklen and Upave.
Text is now:
AR T OS ATO TI OSTAI TOI TAI GUNAK EAI EN SKLEN D UPAVE.
Slov. Mlad tu ostani ati, tu doli ostani junak, aja a mi sklenemo da upamo.
Eng. Young stay here daddy, stay down here the hero, you lie but we conclude to hope.
Glosar:
AR jar, mlad; young
T t, (tu); here
OS osti, ostani; remain
ATO ato, ati; father
TI ti; you
OSTAI ostaj, ostani; remain
TOI toj, tvoj; your
TAI, tai, ta; your
GUNAK junak; hero
EAI aja; lie
P p, pa (quick); and
EN en; one
SKLEN skleni; decide
D d, da; that
UPAVE upave, upamo; hope
VE; ve; know
R
OS osti, ostani; remain
TAI, taj, ta, tu; this
a S, SI; you are
S s, si you are
KLEN klen; vigorous
UPA, Upati, hope
Ve, ve, know.
...
ASSTAIZALLES/ILIRAILAZOVA
AS S TAI ZALLES ILIR AI LAZI OVA
Ko s tem zalijes Ilir aja lezi tu.
R
AS STAI ZALLES ILI RAI LAZI OVA
Ali stoje zaliješ ali raje ležiš tu.
Do you prefer to drink standing or prefer to lie here.
AS ak, ko; eng. when
S s; with
TAI tai, tem; this
ZALLES zalijes; drnk up
ILIR Ilir; Ilir
AI ai, aja; lie
LAZI lazi, lezi; lie down
OVA ova, ta; thia, here
R
STAI stai, stoj, stoje; stand
ZALLES zalijes; drink up
ILI ili, ali; or
RAI raj, raje, rajsi; rather
LAZI lazi, lezi; lie down
OVA ova, ta, tu; thia, here
...
Example dictionary Illyrian-Slovenian
http://fishcalledsanda.blogspot.rs/2014/01/complete-illyrian-vocabulary.html
Letter L
L l, le – okr, SN, SK just
L leži – okr, SK lie
L l, lej, glej – okr, SN, SK see
LA le – preg, SK just
LAD lad, hlad, hladen – okr, SN, SK cold
LAE le – SK just
LAEIKA lahka, lahko – preg, SK light, could
LAI lej, glej – okr, SN, SK see
LAIS ležiš – okr, SK lie
LAM lam, lomi – okr, preg, SN, SK break
LAN lan, lani – okr, SN, SK last year
LAS les, sem – preg, SN, SK here
LASO les, sem – preg, SN, SK here
LASTI lasti – SK property, claim
LAZI lazi, lezi – preg, SN, SK lie down
LE le – SK just
LEGIA legia, legla – preg, SN, SK lay down
LEI lej, glej, okr, SN, SK see
LETA leta – SK years
LETOS letos – SK this year
LI li, le – preg, SN, SK just
LIAT ljet, let – SN, SK years
LIB lib, lep, ljub – preg, SN, SK nice, dear
LIBA lib, lep, ljub – preg, SN, SK nice, dear
LIBBI libi, ljubi – okr, SN, SK dear
LIP lip, lep – preg, SN, SK nice
LITI liti, leta – preg, SN, SK years
LL l, le – preg, SN, SK just
LO le – preg, SK just
LOAN lon, dar – SN, SK gift
LOEZIS ležiš – preg, SK you lie
LOI loj – SK suet
LOI loj, lej, glej – SN, SK see
LOMIA lomil – preg, SK break
LON lon, dar – SN, SK gift
LONA lona, daru – SN, SK gift
LPA lpa, lepa – okr, SN, SK nice
LPE lpe, lepo – okr, SN, SK nice
LTE lejte, glejte – okr, SN, SK see
...
Only several admonitons among much more possible
1. Slovenian researchers highlight that Messapic = Illyrian
But world liguistists don't think so
Fortson, 2010 (2 ed.), 2004 (I ed.)
Indo-European language and culture: An introduction
"Two untestable hypotheses about Illyrian's connection to other languages are widely held: that Illyrian is same as or closely related to Messapic, and that Illyrian is the ancestor of Albanian. The first hypothesis is based on the close cultural connections between the Messapians and Illyrians, and on certain similarities between some linguistic elements. The second hypothesis has very little, if any, linguistic support, but makes geographic sense... The possible relationship to Messapic does not help, for the Messapic inscription evince no obvious similarities to Albanians."
Dr. Forston very clearly say that is untestable hypothesis that Illyirian is same as or closely related to Messapic.
2. Slovenian researchers say very little about wider context, without it someone can be confused.
This include: hystorical, archaeological, genetic etc. aspects.
For example Y-DNA in Apullia where Messapic language was spoken are different in comparison with Slovenia and Western Balkans generally.
3. Slovenian researchers are strictly against theories about migrations of people. They say that for migrations of people have no proofs. This means that Slovenias live in Slovenia in continuity. But what about Illyrians in Bosnia, Western Serbia, Panonia Plain etc.? Are all of them are descendants of Slovenians? What about human knowledge that migrations existed in human history. Humans migrated due to many factors such as changing climate and landscape, inadequate food supply etc. What about migration period and Barbarian invasions etc. Slovenian researchers deny it and give their arguments, again wider context is missing and reader cannot adequately assess whether Slovenian researchers offered arguments for their claims.
...
Contribution from Sile:
And one of contemporary Slovenian archaeologist:
Marjeta Šašel Kos, Institute of Archaeology, Ljubljana:
"The Veneti and the Illyrians – in particular the latter – have a long and heterogeneous history, which has, interestingly, even been exploited in the modern age for pseudo-historical and political purposes. It is not the scope of this contribution to present a systematic bibliography concerning these two problems and illustrating the abuse of ancient sources and their data for the ethnogenesis of the Slovenians and Albanians, let alone to list other similar examples of “false identities”, since the two cases are not only ones."
...
This is enough for opening and stimulating discussion.
I would like that Slovenian members take participation in discussion, it would be useful and helpful that everyone acquires more knowledge about threads.
Besides, Slovenians can provide new sources which are here not mentoined.
In 19th century Croats and Serbs claimed that they are descendants of Illyrians but today these nations are watching others.
Illyrians lived in todays Slovenia, Panonia plain, Western Serbia, Istria, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Northern Albania.
Here are little examples studies from Slovenian researchers in which they are prove that Slovenians are direct descendants of Illyrians.
These are linguistic studies.
In this threads we show how Slovenian researchers based on Messapic inscriptions prove that Messapic, Venetic and Illyrian are descendants of Slovenian.
Here is implied that Messapic and Illyrian are same linguistic branch.
For Messapic, nearly 350 inscriptions were found in South-Eastern Italy, which are quite short.
Slovenian researchers analyzed these inscriptions and they consider it is proven Messapic inscriptions are in accordance with Slovenian.
We will give several examples from Slovenian studies.
Inscriptions:
196
ARTOSATOTIO
198
ASSTAIZALLES/ILIRAILAZOVA
One of Slovenian books in which they claim that Slovenian is descendants of Illyrian/Messapic/Venetian
Vodopivec, Older Slovenian ethnogenesis (Starejša slovenska etnogeneza) , Jutro, 2010
About book, Dr. Anton Mavretič
“This book has three main parts representing a complete whole archaeological views of the collection system and treatment of Illyrian language. The most important part of understanding extends also to Illyrian – Slovenian inscriptions, which are the most numerous Messapic inscriptions, which were written by people at the eastern end of the Apennine Peninsula. The breadth and clarity of these inscriptions testify to our indigenous roots also in the whole area of the Adriatic Sea, which in Roman times called Illyria.”
For Vodopivec:
Venetian and Messapic languages are antique proto-Slavic languages as their inscriptions are understandable in the Slovenian language,
Historically and linguistically is incorrect link Illyrian with Albanian, Illyrian languages majority representing Slavic languages,
Also Etruscan, Rhaetic and Old Thracian are understandable in Slovenian language.
Messapic inscriptions can be read in Slovenian, Vodopivec shows how:
Example from above
ARTOSATOTIO
According to Slovenian researchers: added letter S, H is sound E, uncnown X can be D, L, A, and D is between Pensklen and Upave.
Text is now:
AR T OS ATO TI OSTAI TOI TAI GUNAK EAI EN SKLEN D UPAVE.
Slov. Mlad tu ostani ati, tu doli ostani junak, aja a mi sklenemo da upamo.
Eng. Young stay here daddy, stay down here the hero, you lie but we conclude to hope.
Glosar:
AR jar, mlad; young
T t, (tu); here
OS osti, ostani; remain
ATO ato, ati; father
TI ti; you
OSTAI ostaj, ostani; remain
TOI toj, tvoj; your
TAI, tai, ta; your
GUNAK junak; hero
EAI aja; lie
P p, pa (quick); and
EN en; one
SKLEN skleni; decide
D d, da; that
UPAVE upave, upamo; hope
VE; ve; know
R
OS osti, ostani; remain
TAI, taj, ta, tu; this
a S, SI; you are
S s, si you are
KLEN klen; vigorous
UPA, Upati, hope
Ve, ve, know.
...
ASSTAIZALLES/ILIRAILAZOVA
AS S TAI ZALLES ILIR AI LAZI OVA
Ko s tem zalijes Ilir aja lezi tu.
R
AS STAI ZALLES ILI RAI LAZI OVA
Ali stoje zaliješ ali raje ležiš tu.
Do you prefer to drink standing or prefer to lie here.
AS ak, ko; eng. when
S s; with
TAI tai, tem; this
ZALLES zalijes; drnk up
ILIR Ilir; Ilir
AI ai, aja; lie
LAZI lazi, lezi; lie down
OVA ova, ta; thia, here
R
STAI stai, stoj, stoje; stand
ZALLES zalijes; drink up
ILI ili, ali; or
RAI raj, raje, rajsi; rather
LAZI lazi, lezi; lie down
OVA ova, ta, tu; thia, here
...
Example dictionary Illyrian-Slovenian
http://fishcalledsanda.blogspot.rs/2014/01/complete-illyrian-vocabulary.html
Letter L
L l, le – okr, SN, SK just
L leži – okr, SK lie
L l, lej, glej – okr, SN, SK see
LA le – preg, SK just
LAD lad, hlad, hladen – okr, SN, SK cold
LAE le – SK just
LAEIKA lahka, lahko – preg, SK light, could
LAI lej, glej – okr, SN, SK see
LAIS ležiš – okr, SK lie
LAM lam, lomi – okr, preg, SN, SK break
LAN lan, lani – okr, SN, SK last year
LAS les, sem – preg, SN, SK here
LASO les, sem – preg, SN, SK here
LASTI lasti – SK property, claim
LAZI lazi, lezi – preg, SN, SK lie down
LE le – SK just
LEGIA legia, legla – preg, SN, SK lay down
LEI lej, glej, okr, SN, SK see
LETA leta – SK years
LETOS letos – SK this year
LI li, le – preg, SN, SK just
LIAT ljet, let – SN, SK years
LIB lib, lep, ljub – preg, SN, SK nice, dear
LIBA lib, lep, ljub – preg, SN, SK nice, dear
LIBBI libi, ljubi – okr, SN, SK dear
LIP lip, lep – preg, SN, SK nice
LITI liti, leta – preg, SN, SK years
LL l, le – preg, SN, SK just
LO le – preg, SK just
LOAN lon, dar – SN, SK gift
LOEZIS ležiš – preg, SK you lie
LOI loj – SK suet
LOI loj, lej, glej – SN, SK see
LOMIA lomil – preg, SK break
LON lon, dar – SN, SK gift
LONA lona, daru – SN, SK gift
LPA lpa, lepa – okr, SN, SK nice
LPE lpe, lepo – okr, SN, SK nice
LTE lejte, glejte – okr, SN, SK see
...
Only several admonitons among much more possible
1. Slovenian researchers highlight that Messapic = Illyrian
But world liguistists don't think so
Fortson, 2010 (2 ed.), 2004 (I ed.)
Indo-European language and culture: An introduction
"Two untestable hypotheses about Illyrian's connection to other languages are widely held: that Illyrian is same as or closely related to Messapic, and that Illyrian is the ancestor of Albanian. The first hypothesis is based on the close cultural connections between the Messapians and Illyrians, and on certain similarities between some linguistic elements. The second hypothesis has very little, if any, linguistic support, but makes geographic sense... The possible relationship to Messapic does not help, for the Messapic inscription evince no obvious similarities to Albanians."
Dr. Forston very clearly say that is untestable hypothesis that Illyirian is same as or closely related to Messapic.
2. Slovenian researchers say very little about wider context, without it someone can be confused.
This include: hystorical, archaeological, genetic etc. aspects.
For example Y-DNA in Apullia where Messapic language was spoken are different in comparison with Slovenia and Western Balkans generally.
3. Slovenian researchers are strictly against theories about migrations of people. They say that for migrations of people have no proofs. This means that Slovenias live in Slovenia in continuity. But what about Illyrians in Bosnia, Western Serbia, Panonia Plain etc.? Are all of them are descendants of Slovenians? What about human knowledge that migrations existed in human history. Humans migrated due to many factors such as changing climate and landscape, inadequate food supply etc. What about migration period and Barbarian invasions etc. Slovenian researchers deny it and give their arguments, again wider context is missing and reader cannot adequately assess whether Slovenian researchers offered arguments for their claims.
...
Contribution from Sile:
...Archaeologist Perego has found the oldest presence of Venetic people from ~1200BC ............maybe you should read her analysis. She is posted in a
university in the UK
https://mefra.revues.org/2503
And one of contemporary Slovenian archaeologist:
Marjeta Šašel Kos, Institute of Archaeology, Ljubljana:
"The Veneti and the Illyrians – in particular the latter – have a long and heterogeneous history, which has, interestingly, even been exploited in the modern age for pseudo-historical and political purposes. It is not the scope of this contribution to present a systematic bibliography concerning these two problems and illustrating the abuse of ancient sources and their data for the ethnogenesis of the Slovenians and Albanians, let alone to list other similar examples of “false identities”, since the two cases are not only ones."
...
This is enough for opening and stimulating discussion.
I would like that Slovenian members take participation in discussion, it would be useful and helpful that everyone acquires more knowledge about threads.
Besides, Slovenians can provide new sources which are here not mentoined.