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Thread: New Study Shows MASSIVE Ancient BA Immigration Into Ireland

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    I think is an invasion! Irish invaders were for most part hunter gatherers in constant move for food. They were thieves as well. They had noted on their move that there were people who had possessions and those possessions could be stolen. So, probably they killed a lot of Southern European people type, indigenous people who had occupied the territories thousands of years ahead. I think the invading Irish had more fighting skills since their survival depended on them , so they were a lot better fighting force who killed most indigenous people and stole their food. Why do you think such encounters were peaceful?
    I think this explains why Irish can't cook! (with the exception of boiling potatoes).
    Next it'll be Syrians who move to Europe in massive numbers and change genes :). Europeans don't want to have kids anymore, care more about individual rights and feelings than issues that matter. Anyways, there's no way to know if migration matches that narrative. A lot of those narratives for pre-history are motivated by racism.

    I wouldn't be surprised if conquest and rape did happen, but it can't be that simple. Plus, natives don't just stop having sex once new people arrive. 60-80% of EEF/WHG men would have still been having sons when Steppe arrived. Why would they stop? All Europeans are 50%+ non-Steppe, the admixture could not have been solely Steppe male and non-Steppe female.

    Spain is a perfect example. Over 60% have R1b-P312, yet probably under 20% of their ancestry and under 50% of their ancestry is LNBA Central European. EEF/WHG continued to have sons. Maybe Steppe groups were dominate and larger in number, and had powerful elite who are the reason most Europeans today have Steppe Y DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now, let's get to your comments in this post. You say that the paper states that R1b expanded, and perhaps particularly in Ireland, because of LP. Please quote the precise language in the paper, or supplement, including page number, where the authors make such a statement. I'll save you the trouble; that's your statement, not theirs.

    Let's now move on to your statement that the paper says that the Bronze Age R1b people migrated to Ireland in MASSIVE numbers of both sexes, by which I assume that you mean the sexes were equally represented, i.e. it was not a predominantly male migration.

    Please quote the precise language, page number etc. where the authors make this claim. I'll once again save you some time. They don't. They don't provide estimates of the numbers at all. What they're saying is that the modern Irish basically descend almost totally from these people. That is not quite the same thing. They certainly don't give an estimate of the gender break down.

    The phylogeny of this R1b clade in fact indicates that it was probably a small group that first arrived and the homogeneity of Irish R1b is because of a rapid expansion of a small group.


    Oh, and thanks for the suggestion, but some of us have been reading Cavalli-Sforza for twenty-five years, and discussing his work for at least five years on this Board.
    Now, now, there is no need for sarcasm. Many of us have read books for a long time, but sometime we require reminders about their contents. And I am unaware of any reason why posting longer on one particular board makes one more rational or special. *Unless of course one is R1b. (Ha!)

    Actually the authors do state what I stated, but you need to use some logic. I don't say this to offend you; please assume the best and take this at face value. We are all adults here; we all understand that written words sometimes look more harsh than they should.

    The authors state:

    1. The autosomal genes of the previous Irish inhabitants did not survive until modern times in Ireland. They survived in places like Sardinia.

    2. The new inhabitants had a huge population. We know this because we did Runs of Homozygosity.

    3. The new inhabitants bore R1b patrilines.

    4. Since the older matrilines and autosome did not survive, and since the new population was large, and since humans need men and women to have babies....

    There is only one conclusion that is possible.

    I have a demographic hypothetical for you, and I'm curious about your answer and Tomenable's.

    There is a tribe on an island with 300 members. 100 are senior citizens, 100 are parents, and 100 are kids.

    The next generation of kids (100) is split, as humans tend to be when young, at 50% males, 50% females.

    The males come from 5 patrilines, the females, 5 matrilines.

    MEN...DIE...YOUNGER....THAN...WOMEN. Men have higher mortality rates across their lives than women. It used to be war and hunting; now it is industrial accidents.

    This is true in every society across the globe and has always been true.

    Back to our tribe:

    The 50 males go hunting one day, and a bear gets the best of 5 of them. 45 return.

    Of the 45 males, 5 get drunk and brawl and later die from their injuries. 40 now live.

    Then they get into a war with another tribe, and 10 die. Now there are 30 males of breeding population in the tribe, and 50 females.

    Over time, this will give a FALSE APPEARANCE. Don't fall for it. It's simple demography.

    Tomenable: is this evidence that women preferred certain male lines?

    Angela: is this evidence that the initial settlers were all men, who had their way with multiple women?

    Serious questions, yes or no.


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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by moore2moore View Post
    2. The new inhabitants had a huge population. We know this because we did Runs of Homozygosity.
    You see, your point is based on huge migration scenario, so yet you use a thought exercise based on a small tribe?

    I have a demographic hypothetical for you, and I'm curious about your answer and Tomenable's.

    There is a tribe on an island with 300 members. 100 are senior citizens, 100 are parents, and 100 are kids.

    The next generation of kids (100) is split, as humans tend to be when young, at 50% males, 50% females.

    The males come from 5 patrilines, the females, 5 matrilines.

    MEN...DIE...YOUNGER....THAN...WOMEN. Men have higher mortality rates across their lives than women. It used to be war and hunting; now it is industrial accidents.

    This is true in every society across the globe and has always been true.

    Back to our tribe:

    The 50 males go hunting one day, and a bear gets the best of 5 of them. 45 return.

    Of the 45 males, 5 get drunk and brawl and later die from their injuries. 40 now live.

    Then they get into a war with another tribe, and 10 die. Now there are 30 males of breeding population in the tribe, and 50 females.

    Over time, this will give a FALSE APPEARANCE. Don't fall for it. It's simple demography.

    Tomenable: is this evidence that women preferred certain male lines?

    Angela: is this evidence that the initial settlers were all men, who had their way with multiple women?

    Serious questions, yes or no.

    I'd say, repeat your exercise on a scale of a big tribe of 30,000 people. You'll notice that things become more randomly even. When you lose 10,000 people, you would lose proportionally same amount of all haplogroups.
    Now repeat the same exercise on small or big group, with a twist. Add extra male offspring for one of the haplogroups and run it for 100 generations, it is about 3,000 years. This is how small positive mutation works. We'll see what you'll get.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 30-12-15 at 02:01.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    I gather you dont like the Irish.
    I like Irish! I am a bit biased about Irish women, because of their drinking habits. But men are fabulous!
    The only problem is some Irish tend to use the term wogs against Southern Europeans, which has I think displeasure connotation against middle eastern and southern europeans. Here we go Irish! The wogs taught you how to grow cabbage. They also brought the potato from Americas, since Irish like potatoes.

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    1. The autosomal genes of the previous Irish inhabitants did not survive until modern times in Ireland.
    That's one possibility. Another is the neolithic farmer population was relatively small and the new herder population swamped them.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    If neolithic farming in Ireland was always relatively marginal then farmers from the Atlantic Megalith culture might not have fully covered the territory leaving surviving WHG populations on the fringes.

    If subsequent to their settlement changing conditions led to a partial or complete farming collapse then you'd have the conditions for a small, partially LP population of incoming cattle herders to expand into the remaining territory (alongside strong selection for LP).

    A dramatic founder effect and expansion from a small population seems to fit better with things like the very high frequency of the hemochromatosis C282Y allele (and did they check for their red haired frequency?)

    If the pre-herder population of Ireland included a surviving whg population (or if the some parts of the megalith culture farmer population included a higher than usual whg percentage) then that could explain the WHG resurgence.

    If it is a case of massive founder effect and not a massive tribal invasion then the seemingly male dominated nature of the expansion can easily be explained by the invaders coming from a male dominated occupation like
    - mercenaries
    - traders
    - prospectors
    - miners
    Interestingly, I didn't see any derived MCIR for red hair in the tables. As I said above, the two groups seemed to both be derived homozygotes for the two major skin depigmentation genes. The Bronze Age men were heterozygotes for HERC2, so brown eyed, but this is only three men, so there might have been people who were actually blue eyed among them. As the authors state, one of them probably had lighter hair with brown eyes.

    The severity of the farming collapse in Britain is well-documented, so we're talking about a very small population remaining, unlike in other areas of Europe. The authors don't see, as I pointed out before, any input from the Irish Neolithic people into the Bronze Age people, but as Maciamo pointed out these are three samples from one area. We might find samples from other areas that do show some input from the prior people.

    It's difficult to know how many actual migrants made their way into Ireland. If this clade did start expanding five hundred years earlier, that might have been in central Europe or northwest France where it can also be found.

    The mtDna of these Bronze Age men is also interesting. It's not the HV of the Irish Megalithic woman, but neither is it very steppe like. The U5b is western and central European Mesolithic and also found in central European farmers. The J2b likewise is common in central European farmers. It's only the U5a that we could say is steppe related.

    If I have time I'll take a look at the modern breakdown of mtDna in Ireland.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    that might have been in central Europe or northwest France where it can also be found.
    It's presence in North-West France can be from much later times, when Britons from Britain settled there (hence the name Bretagne).

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    It's presence in North-West France can be from much later times, when Britons from Britain settled there (hence the name Bretagne).
    I think the U5s and even J2 could have been Central/East European in their case. I think Maciamo pegged Unetice Culture as R1b. He might be right again. Was there any recent discovery of Y hg from Unetice?

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    I think Maciamo pegged Unetice Culture as R1b. He might be right again. Was there any recent discovery of Y hg from Unetice?
    We have 4 samples of Y-DNA from Unetice culture and no of them is R1b, only R1a and I2 (including I2a and I2c).

    Unetice sample (age) haplogroup:

    RISE431 (2286-2048 BC) ------ R1a1a1
    I0114 (2131-1979 BC) ----------- I2a2
    I0116 (2118-1961 BC) ----------- I2c2
    I0804 (2200-1550 BC) ------------ I2

    And here Unetcie mtDNA samples:

    http://s11.postimg.org/rtx9wcf8z/Unetice_mt_DNA.png



    Sum:

    U2 - 7
    U4 - 2
    U5 - 15
    U8 - 3
    ==========
    (U in total) - 27
    ==========
    H - 21
    ==========
    HV - 1
    J - 6
    T1 - 2
    T2 - 8
    K - 9
    X - 5
    W - 4
    V - 4
    R - 1
    Last edited by Tomenable; 30-12-15 at 06:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You see, your point is based on huge migration scenario, so yet you use a thought exercise based on a small tribe?


    I'd say, repeat your exercise on a scale of a big tribe of 30,000 people. You'll notice that things become more randomly even. When you lose 10,000 people, you would lose proportionally same amount of all haplogroups.
    Now repeat the same exercise on small or big group, with a twist. Add extra male offspring for one of the haplogroups and run it for 100 generations, it is about 3,000 years. This is how small positive mutation works. We'll see what you'll get.
    I'm afraid you've entirely missed the point.

    In a population size of 30,000 (or 1 million), there will be different haplogroups and different clades and subclades. (Remember haplogroups are a human construct. We could call "R1a" "P5b" if we wanted to.)

    At any rate, there will be several different lineages in any population. But some will die out. Whether these are different subclades of R1b or other Hgs. If there is no further input, you will see an apparent reduction in patrilines.

    This is taught in every genetics textbook, with the examples, well proven, about surname collapse on deserted islands with castaways.

    Males die at different proportions to females, as my example above (and demography) outlines rather clearly. It's not a proportion thing. Every generation, there is the risk of failing to have male offspring and dying in war. For rare clades, each generation taking one more off the table means that there are fewer every generation.

    This will give the ILLUSION that there was a founding pop of fewer males. Don't be fooled.

    I might add another possibility, somewhat tongue in cheek, but there are historical examples. It is a possibility that the R1b males were pacifists, and they refused to fight wars, so the other castes did all the fighting. Kind of like how the Brahmin caste were priests, but the Vardhan caste were warriors, in India.

    My point is that there are many more explanations than the "sexual selection" theory or the "every R1b was a royal chieftain" theory that some cling to.

    But of course, many will stubbornly fight this possibility because, well, I think most of us know why.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by moore2moore View Post
    I'm afraid you've entirely missed the point.

    In a population size of 30,000 (or 1 million), there will be different haplogroups and different clades and subclades. (Remember haplogroups are a human construct. We could call "R1a" "P5b" if we wanted to.)

    At any rate, there will be several different lineages in any population. But some will die out. Whether these are different subclades of R1b or other Hgs. If there is no further input, you will see an apparent reduction in patrilines.
    What will disappear are deep subclades, which are low in numbers. That's why accidental deaths and natural disasters can wipe them out. For the major clades or haplogroups it won't work, because their members number in thousands.
    Exercise:
    Start with 1,000 members of each haplogroup, 1k R1b, 1k I2, etc, up to 6 of them (or use subclades of one haplogroup), simulating mixed population of 6 thousand males. Roll a dice to determine who will die accidently. 1 for R1b dying, 2 for I2, etc. Do 4,800 rounds, simulating death of most of the tribe, and check proportion of each haplogoup.
    I assure you that each haplogroup will be close to 200 members, probably not more than 10% fluctuation. If you increase the tribe to 100 thousand members the fluctuation of proportions of haplogroups will be even smaller, like 1%.

    Now, do the same exercise for only 10 members of each haplogroup, tribe of 60 males. Roll the dice 48 times, till 12 members of the tribe are left. This time check proportions. Not only they will have bigger disproportions, but most likely you wiped out one or two haplogroups. Even if 20 dies off, there is a chance of losing one complete haplogroup.

    That's the difference of accidental or random fluctuations on small and big numbers. I hope now you get what I mean and how it works.


    This is taught in every genetics textbook, with the examples, well proven, about surname collapse on deserted islands with castaways.
    Another example of small group.
    Males die at different proportions to females, as my example above (and demography) outlines rather clearly. It's not a proportion thing. Every generation, there is the risk of failing to have male offspring and dying in war. For rare clades, each generation taking one more off the table means that there are fewer every generation.
    Again for small subclades or small groups, similar to bottlenecking phenomenon.

    I might add another possibility, somewhat tongue in cheek, but there are historical examples. It is a possibility that the R1b males were pacifists, and they refused to fight wars, so the other castes did all the fighting.
    If it happens only to R1b guys, it would mean a genetic predisposition, mutation on Y chromosome. Therefore by ways of natural selection.


    Kind of like how the Brahmin caste were priests, but the Vardhan caste were warriors, in India.
    Interesting that upper caste has more R1a than other castes, up to 50%. It looks more like a founder effect of Indo-Iranian invasion. Upper caste was rich, more resources and higher survival of offspring. However entire India sports 6 major haplogroups and few minor ones. Perhaps because it always was a huge population in fertile land, unlike Ireland.

    My point is that there are many more explanations than the "sexual selection" theory or the "every R1b was a royal chieftain" theory that some cling to.
    I'm not sure how you figured that we are not dealing with all above mechanisms of evolution of populations. And just to be on a record. Your number theory has part in it too. Bigger in smaller population, lesser in larger. But it should be stressed, that it is not the only mechanism. Life is more complex than just numbers.

    But of course, many will stubbornly fight this possibility because, well, I think most of us know why.
    Stop seeing it as black and white issue, and stop exaggerating. You are the only one who is trying to force it on others as a leading or even only forcing of haplogroup selection. We, on other hand, admit its existence and a role it plays, but also accept other forces, like natural selection, bottleneck, founder effect, etc. They all take part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    We have 4 samples of Y-DNA from Unetice culture and no of them is R1b, only R1a and I2 (including I2a and I2c).

    Unetice sample (age) haplogroup:

    RISE431 (2286-2048 BC) ------ R1a1a1
    I0114 (2131-1979 BC) ----------- I2a2
    I0116 (2118-1961 BC) ----------- I2c2
    I0804 (2200-1550 BC) ------------ I2

    And here Unetcie mtDNA samples:

    http://s11.postimg.org/rtx9wcf8z/Unetice_mt_DNA.png



    Sum:

    U2 - 7
    U4 - 2
    U5 - 15
    U8 - 3
    ==========
    (U in total) - 27
    ==========
    H - 21
    ==========
    HV - 1
    J - 6
    T1 - 2
    T2 - 8
    K - 9
    X - 5
    W - 4
    V - 4
    R - 1
    Thanks, wrong place then. Look at these I2 dominating "Poland". ;)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The authors don't see, as I pointed out before, any input from the Irish Neolithic people into the Bronze Age people, but as Maciamo pointed out these are three samples from one area. We might find samples from other areas that do show some input from the prior people.
    I would be really surprising to find signs of admixtures with locals right after R1b Proto-Celts migrated to Ireland, c. 2000 BCE. The Rathlin-1 sample dates from 1950 BCE ± 70 years, and Rathlin-2 from 1880 BCE ± 140 years. So they might have been the first or second generation of their lineage to live in Ireland. They may not even have been born there. So it's only to be expected that they shouldn't have any local admixture. If they had, they would surely be the first generation of 'hybrids' and they would look half Unetice and half Neolithic Irish.

    As I said above, it is more likely that the two groups (R1b vs Neolithic Irish) lived side by side for many centuries before they started intermingling. The fact that Rathlin-3, who dates from c. 1630 BCE still shows no sign of local admixture would seem to confirm this. But I am confident that the two groups eventually merged, as modern Irish DNA clearly has more EEF than the Rathlin samples.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Thanks, wrong place then. Look at these I2 dominating "Poland". ;)
    Actually all three Unetice I2 samples are from "Germany", while only Unetice R1a sample is from "Poland" - locations added:

    RISE431 (2286-2048 BC) ------ R1a1a1 ----- Łęki Małe, Poland
    I0114 (2131-1979 BC) ----------- I2a2 ----- Esperstedt, Germany
    I0116 (2118-1961 BC) ----------- I2c2 ----- Esperstedt, Germany
    I0804 (2200-1550 BC) ------------ I2 ------- Eulau, Germany

    I would like to see also some Unetice Y-DNA samples from Czech Republic, and of course more samples in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    As I said above, it is more likely that the two groups (R1b vs Neolithic Irish) lived side by side for many centuries before they started intermingling. The fact that Rathlin-3, who dates from c. 1630 BCE still shows no sign of local admixture would seem to confirm this. But I am confident that the two groups eventually merged, as modern Irish DNA clearly has more EEF than the Rathlin samples.
    Good points Maciamo, this is one of reasons why we should be careful before assuming replacements everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok
    Interesting that upper caste has more R1a than other castes, up to 50%. It looks more like a founder effect of Indo-Iranian invasion. Upper caste was rich, more resources and higher survival of offspring. However entire India sports 6 major haplogroups and few minor ones. Perhaps because it always was a huge population in fertile land, unlike Ireland.
    In some upper castes R1a is even around or over 70% (e.g. Punjab Khatris, West Bengal Brahmins, Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, Nepali Brahmins, Nepali Kshatriya, etc.). Generally speakers of Aryan languages and upper castes have higher percentages (but frequencies differ significantly between samples from various studies and various groups). The average share of R1a in the whole Indian sub-continent is harder to establish, but probably up to 1/3, so up to 300 million males, much more than the combined number of R1b and R1a males in Europe (but combined R1b and R1a are around 1/2 of all European males, a higher percentage than in India).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Actually all three Unetice I2 samples are from "Germany", while only Unetice R1a sample is from "Poland" - locations added:

    RISE431 (2286-2048 BC) ------ R1a1a1 ----- Łęki Małe, Poland
    I0114 (2131-1979 BC) ----------- I2a2 ----- Esperstedt, Germany
    I0116 (2118-1961 BC) ----------- I2c2 ----- Esperstedt, Germany
    I0804 (2200-1550 BC) ------------ I2 ------- Eulau, Germany

    I would like to see also some Unetice Y-DNA samples from Czech Republic, and of course more samples in general.



    Good points Maciamo, this is one of reasons why we should be careful before assuming replacements everywhere.

    Early farmers were tech advanced compared with pastoral R1b. The early farmers were not strictly farmers, the had pastoral skills as well. So, according to my imagination the initial encounter of pastoral R1B with the farmers were violent. After violence settled they cooperated and intermingled but early farmers were less resistant against deceases the R1b brought. So as a rule the early farmers should have outnumbered the R1b but they were devastated by deceases the R1b brought. Think of Usa INDIANS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Early farmers were tech advanced compared with pastoral R1b. The early farmers were not strictly farmers, the had pastoral skills as well. So, according to my imagination the initial encounter of pastoral R1B with the farmers were violent. After violence settled they cooperated and intermingled but early farmers were less resistant against deceases the R1b brought. So as a rule the early farmers should have outnumbered the R1b but they were devastated by deceases the R1b brought. Think of Usa INDIANS.
    that is your opinion
    early farmers didn't have wheels
    did they have draught animals?
    did they have ploughs?
    how much milk did their cows produce?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    that is your opinion
    early farmers didn't have wheels
    did they have draught animals?
    did they have ploughs?
    how much milk did their cows produce?
    You mean R1b pastorals brought ploughs?
    Why did they need them when they had no idea of farming?
    You mean R1b pastorals had wheels?
    Don't the wheels need roads?
    Wheels are Mesopotamian inventions of 3000 bc, time when R1b pastorals were raiding Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Interestingly, I didn't see any derived MCIR for red hair in the tables. As I said above, the two groups seemed to both be derived homozygotes for the two major skin depigmentation genes. The Bronze Age men were heterozygotes for HERC2, so brown eyed, but this is only three men, so there might have been people who were actually blue eyed among them. As the authors state, one of them probably had lighter hair with brown eyes.

    The severity of the farming collapse in Britain is well-documented, so we're talking about a very small population remaining, unlike in other areas of Europe. The authors don't see, as I pointed out before, any input from the Irish Neolithic people into the Bronze Age people, but as Maciamo pointed out these are three samples from one area. We might find samples from other areas that do show some input from the prior people.

    It's difficult to know how many actual migrants made their way into Ireland. If this clade did start expanding five hundred years earlier, that might have been in central Europe or northwest France where it can also be found.

    The mtDna of these Bronze Age men is also interesting. It's not the HV of the Irish Megalithic woman, but neither is it very steppe like. The U5b is western and central European Mesolithic and also found in central European farmers. The J2b likewise is common in central European farmers. It's only the U5a that we could say is steppe related.

    If I have time I'll take a look at the modern breakdown of mtDna in Ireland.
    Yes. I have my pet miner theory but it doesn't really matter for this part whether it was a small miner migration or a large tribal one. If the neolithic farmer population was small and limited to a few regions because of the climate conditions the cattle herders may have had plenty of land to fill before any need of conflict and the small farmer population could have simply been absorbed into a population that became much larger.

    I didn't see any derived MCIR for red hair in the tables


    drat :)


    Last edited by Greying Wanderer; 30-12-15 at 17:31. Reason: forgot quote

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    You mean R1b pastorals brought ploughs?
    Why did they need them when they had no idea of farming?
    You mean R1b pastorals had wheels?
    Don't the wheels need roads?
    Wheels are Mesopotamian inventions of 3000 bc, time when R1b pastorals were raiding Europe
    LBK didn't have ploughs nor draught animals
    probably Vinca and Cucuteni-Tripolye had, and so R1b new them too
    they also had more productive milk cows
    R1b had wheels and draught animals too
    the wheel was invented 3500 years ago in a place unknown
    old school archeologists did attribute all major inventions to Mesopotamia

    when LBK didn't find any more loess soil, their tribes started to kill each other

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    All kinds of similarity - autosomal DNA, Y-DNA and mtDNA - point to common origin of East Europeans and Indo-Aryans:

    "Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations":

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC311057/

    Excerpts:

    1) mtDNA similarity (it is not as significant as other affinities):

    Quote:

    "To explore the impact of West Eurasians on contemporary Indian caste populations, we compared mtDNA (400 bp of hypervariable region 1 and 14 restriction site polymorphisms) and Y-chromosome (20 biallelic polymorphisms and 5 short tandem repeats) variation in ∼265 males from eight castes of different rank to ∼750 Africans, Asians, Europeans, and other Indians. For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians. However, 20%–30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups, and the frequency of these haplotypes is proportional to caste rank, the highest frequency of West Eurasian haplotypes being found in the upper castes."

    2) Y-DNA similarity (the most significant of all types of affinities):

    Quote:

    "In contrast, for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank."

    3) Authors also compared autosomal DNA, to validate conclusion:

    Quote:

    "Nevertheless, the mitochondrial genome and the Y chromosome each represents only a single haploid locus and is more susceptible to large stochastic variation, bottlenecks, and selective sweeps.

    Thus, to increase the power of our analysis, we assayed 40 independent, biparentally inherited autosomal loci (1 LINE-1 and 39 Alu elements) in all of the caste and continental populations (∼600 individuals). Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes. Collectively, all five datasets show a trend toward upper castes being more similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians."

    ============================

    Check also this website, "The Aryan Trail":

    https://sites.google.com/a/sudiptoda.../thearyantrail

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    Yes. I have my pet miner theory but it doesn't really matter for this part whether it was a small miner migration or a large tribal one. If the neolithic farmer population was small and limited to a few regions because of the climate conditions the cattle herders may have had plenty of land to fill before any need of conflict and the small farmer population could have simply been absorbed into a population that became much larger.



    drat :)


    [/COLOR]
    Exactly. As far as I'm concerned there isn't one model for the Indo-European migrations that fits every part of Europe or Central Asia or South Asia. In terms of Ireland, it may indeed have been a situation where it was an almost empty landscape, so it wouldn't matter if it was a small or a "massive" number of new people. Given its isolation, and its climate, and the quality of its soil, it wasn't subject to any further major migrations. Then later, with the end of the Bronze Age, there was another major population collapse.

    These things are more than enough to explain the current demographic situation in Ireland. In other areas the circumstances were different. Much depends on the existing population density, whether a particular influx was of "families", like, for example, the Lombards in Italy, to jump ahead in time, or more male dominated, as has been proposed for the Goths in Italy. It also matters, as I've been saying for a long time, how "mixed" the Indo Europeans were before they got to certain areas. Looking at these Irish Bronze Age men, they were very mixed indeed; only about 1/3 Yamnaya, and if we take out the 1/2 CHG, only 1/6 of the original steppe group. It would have been a group like this, I think, which would have brought the Indo-European languages to Italy. We'll see if the ancient dna bears that out.

    Yes, disappointing about the MCIR. Of course, this is only three samples. I do have some interest in the topic since so many of my father's people have copper red hair. I've always wondered how it got to them. That it's so prevalent in their villages is no surprise. They've been isolated in that area for over 600 years.

    Does anyone know if there was a lot of MCIR derived in Unetice or any other Central European Bronze Age groups that might have moved down into Italy? Maybe it came with them?

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    sorry all, but i can't stay on the chair with the new data, so...

    i think i got it all... [caution, monthy piton's mode]:

    It was around 2923 BCE that there was a concile of indoeuropean herders of Yamnaya, someone said:

    - ye! let's go to invade Poland!
    - are you crazy? between future Berlin and Minsk there are 3 milion people and we are 200000, moreover they inhabit amist forests not very suitable for herding...
    - shut up! you know how big breasts have Polish women?
    - how are?
    - like that!...
    - oh!
    - so let's go there!
    - let's go!

    so R1a and R1b came together to Poland

    [seriously, it could be more the case that farmers in Europe were suffering plagues or a more provable starvation after years of bad crops, the same climatic difficulties would have pushed IE to the north?]

    sometime around 2310 BCE the Corded Ware king said:

    - i'm thristy of blood! i wish to anhilate everybody west of Elbe river in few years!
    - we serve you king! let's go...
    - no!, you can't! you are R1a bastards, sons of Polish who..., only pure R1b will follow me!
    - oh! we will stay here, we don't like to follow d... sukaz!

    sometime around 2309 BCE, near Hannover the king said:

    - Western Europe is quite big, we must divide; my broda and his family U106 will go north...
    - ooooh, noooo, i want to go south!
    - shut up, north!
    - but i like sun and sangria...
    - go north!

    - and for DF27 will go to Spain, U152 will go to France, and L21 to England / Ireland; but myself and my sons P312 will go were we would like.... all right?

    two years later somewhere near Frankfurt:

    - what are you doing here little U106?
    - no, i'm DF27!
    - little liar! it's not that the shaman did a genetic test where you are U106? so go north!

    somewhere near Paris:

    - what are you doing here potatoeater L21!? you! start to swim and go to the islands, don't remain here!

    so around 2114 BCE indoeuropeans L21 settled also in Ireland and remained there by four millenia...

    This ironic history is to try to show the impact to see how in a remote island as Ireland three L21 were inhumated in a marginal little island some years after invading (?) the island... what is that? they arrived with L21 subclades also! and where were then U106, DF27, U152??? founder effect?? which one?? the one that L21 carriers have no fear to cross the sea maybe?? what kind of invasion it is supposed to be that that is divided by haplogroups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    LBK didn't have ploughs nor draught animals
    probably Vinca and Cucuteni-Tripolye had, and so R1b new them too
    they also had more productive milk cows
    R1b had wheels and draught animals too
    the wheel was invented 3500 years ago in a place unknown
    old school archeologists did attribute all major inventions to Mesopotamia

    when LBK didn't find any more loess soil, their tribes started to kill each other

    Is this for some reason personal with you, a grudge match going back not 2,000 years to the Romans vs Celts this time, but 5,000 years to the farmers versus the steppe people? It's a question of sides, and you've taken the side of your Yamnaya ancestors versus your farmer ancestors? :)

    The studies and evidence of which I'm aware, including David Anthony, indicate that farming was a minor part of the culture of the steppe peoples, present initially only in some isolated river valleys west of the Don. In fact, that's one of the "clouds" on the entire "Indo-European" from the Pontic steppe theory, as James Mallory pointed out. (Coincidentally, he's a contributing author to this study.) What they knew of it they learned from farming people. That's also how they got their domesticated animals and learned how to herd them.
    http://jolr.ru/files/(112)jlr2013-9(145-154).pdf

    As for plows, they were already in use in European Neolithic farming cultures in Passy around Paris at least by 4500 BC, pulled by oxen, and, some scholars have speculated, perhaps even by horses.
    http://archive.archaeology.org/onlin...res/neolithic/

    We discussed it here:
    http://archive.archaeology.org/onlin...ures/neolithic

    See also:
    http://www.academia.edu/12994132/Div...n_Central_Euro

    So, if farmers all over Europe had ploughs and draft animals long before Yamnaya or Corded Ware, then how precisely could the IEs possession of them have been an advantage the IEs had over people who had them first? I don't mean to be provocative, but I don't understand that.

    As for wheels, this is still pretty much the consensus view among archaeologists so far as I know:

    "Evidence of wheeled vehicles appears from the second half of the 4th millennium BC, near-simultaneously in Mesopotamia (Sumerian civilization), the Northern Caucasus (Maykop culture) and Central Europe, so that the question of which culture originally invented the wheeled vehicle is still unsolved."

    I don't see steppe groups mentioned anywhere there. I know a lot of peope are R1b aficionados, so if Maykop turns out to be R1b, although perhaps heavily CHG, you guys will be able to claim it, along perhaps with Bronze. :)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel

    Wheeled carts, so far as I remember, first appeared in the TRB culture.

    As to this matter of the dairy cows and how much milk they produced, that's very interesting. Could you point me to the papers you're using for the fact that the cows on the steppe produced more milk than the ones in Vinca or CT? I'd love to see that.

    I'm really not going to bother sourcing material about violence among Neolithic groups vs violence among steppe groups. I'm sure we've all been there, read that. All human groups were violent if resources were scarce. The steppe people were no slouches in this regard, or are you not one of the "we he men killed all the inferior haplogroup men and impregnated all their women brigrade?" Regardless, from their remains the newcomers were pretty battle scarred by the time they got to the rest of Europe.

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    I put here my raw global thoughts, but I have not red all last posts, sorry.



    I red the veryexciting paper about Neolithic and Bronze people of Ballynahatty andRathlin.
    I red too someEupedia and Eurogenes comments about it. I'm amazed sometimes by theinterpretation someones do, not by force in Eupedia. Someones seemthinking a « steppic » or « Yamanya »component in an ancient population implies a direct coming of wellidentified Samara Yamnaya Bronze people into Western Europe, astaightforward road from Volga to ireland through North Europeplains, by instance. There is a dense litterature about Europearcheology of this period having dured since about 3000 to about 1000BC in Europe, broadly said., according to places.
    I know little aboutit, but between Samara Bronze period and Iron Age we red about CordedWare (proto-Copper), Bell Beakers (of more than a sort), Wessex andArmorican Tumuli, Baviera-Bohemia-Thuringen Tumuli (more than asort), Urnfield (wth specific Lusace), Vatya in an Hungary divided inmore than a Middle Bronze culture, Knovitz and Co, at diverse elevelof depth it's true because some local cultures can havecorrespondance in faurther ones an can be grouped together : allthat to say Europe Bronze was not a level uniform culture. We sawCopper in Balkans or Italy or Iberia without too much new DNA, Bronzein some place with true but light « steppic » (supposed)elements, when Corded shooed a strong Yamnaya-like steppic imput.(But we have to be prudent here : some Chalcolithic people ofSpain showed more than other eastern auDNA that seems imply a farEast origin, if not by force in Northern Steppes).
    Fr. HUBERT thoughtceltic could be older than believed and that Celts were an elitewhich put in move or/and imposed themselves to other Bronze tribes.He favoured the Tumuli Culture (with BBs and then Unetice heritages)as the « dung » of the future Celts, Hallstatt and LaTène were subsequent stages but not the daybreak of Celts for him.He even thought (I don't know if he red JC. COON and his 3-mixphenotypes) that the northern Beakers who passed from Lower Rhinemouths to Britain and Ireland were maybe already Celticspeakers (proto-gaelic for him), stating that at the same time around2200 the Westphalen plain of N-W Germany seem undergoing a decreaseof population. We know for sure someones among BBs and Wessex camefrom South-Germany-Switzerland. And we know BBs times saw some movesof population, more leaps than a long and unique journey, with morepopulation of Southwest Europe adding to the Central Europe ones, amovement opposite to the mainstream of the Metals Ages spitebeginning at their daybreak in Occident. With greater changes inSwitzerland and Hungary than in Iberia or Germany-Bohemia.


    The Irish Bronze 3men of Rathlin show as almost in all settlements of Metals Ages a bitheterogenerity between them – were they of exactly the same time ?- but les heterogeneity than samples of BBs or CWC. Their new but low« Yamnaya » component is not a surprise for me knowingtheir ancestors came to Ireland surely through finally intangledways. Spite the Irish bronze men seem a post-BBs sample they sharetheir MN component with Central Europe than with Iberia and localBallynahatty. The heterogeneity of later BBs settlements is provedgenetics, metrics and non-metric anthropology a bit in contradictionto other analysis. In PCA the Irish Bronze men are close to somethingbetween Croatia and Bulgaria, so less less northern than most CentralEurope Bronze men, less western than Hungary bronze man ??? Butthe PCA drawing is very compact so ?


    The wide sharing inHBRContinuity with today Irishmen and people of Western Britain seemconfirming the populating of Ireland and Britain occurred for themost during Chalcolithic and Bronze Age and did not begin only atIron Ages (hard for some British scientists). Or the Iron men whoarrived later were still broadly said of the same type of population(Belgae were closer to Eastern Gauls than to Germanics I think). TheEast England less close population confirms the later Germanicsdiverse imputs. It places England with Northern Brittany and France,and at a slightly lower level of sharing, Lower-Sax/Harz region whatis not without signification? Coastal N-Sax and Scandinavia sharesnot more than rest of France or Belgium, the Netherlands. Compared toHungarian Bronze BR2 – but as BBs, Bronze Hungarians show a largefork of auDNA variation ! - it shows less affinities to Poland,Central North Europe ; this BR2 himself shows a large spectrumsharing too with Greece, Sicilia, Toscania, Wales, S-E Ireland, NorthItaly : a beautiful melting pot !
    The specifictendancy of Neolithic Ballynhatty towards Iberian MN and Sardiniansis not found among the 3 Rathlin men, what could prove, if the (post)BBs quality (rather Food Vessel) is confirmed, that Northern BBs havefew recent stuff in common with Iberians, spite their higher EEFcomponent in front of other LBA people ; confirmed by othersurveys, by the way. The 'mediterranean' (so largely EEF) componentin BBs of N-Central Europe could be more an effect of closer EEFstock, the BBs period moves being people's pushing from vicinity tovicinity (French provence 'mediterraneans' to Switzerland, Swiss'mediterraneans' to Hungary ??? uneasy to say, based onDESIDERI's work...
    & : Thatsaid, we have no sound proof of an I-Ean language in Ireland at thosedates. If I-Ean, as said someones, it could rather be a Western I-Eandialect vaguely akin to Lusitanian or proto-Ligurian, or better tothe famous and uncertain ancient North-West Europe I-Ean dialect, allof them not too far from what we can imagine for an Italo-Celticstratum...
    Just a detail :seemingly the colonizationS of Ireland took the Northern Road throughBritain to S-W Scotland, and relations were maintained this way veryoften, whatever the direction inwards or outwards for Ireland. Easierto cross the sea there ? Neolithic colonization(s?) took thesame ways.
    Two conclusions :
    1- a system offoreign exogame mating among Bronze elites confirmed more and more byY-haplo's local uniformity and auDNA great span of variants.Confirmed at Iron Age too, what is not to say it was the sameeverywhere everytime, nor the Bronze elite males didn' t send theirwives with them ; they surely took other wives on the road sothe auDNA and mtDNA of these wives was evolving along with them, withcertainly a final phase of stabilization here and there, leading todifferent shartings of auDNA according to the countries crossedduring the total « tour » made by them since begining ofmigrations/journeys.
    2- I'm very glad ofthe progress in ancient DNA data but I do't see anything toosurprising which could put History upside down, only more precisionsconcerning some episodes and yet concerning languages we are stillmaking assumptions.


    The hemachromatosismutations in cause are common in Brittany ; it seems Czechs haveat least one of them and another inherited from Slavs. So crossingsdon't always eliminate mutations which are letal at homozygoticstade. Genetics...

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