New Study Shows MASSIVE Ancient BA Immigration Into Ireland

[MOESAN]

Some forumers seem not knowing things are not always as in peplums or cartoons. Transitions between cultures are not always so easy to mark: some HGs began to clear the forests, in Ireland, Neolithic people seem having progressively passed from dominantly crops to more and more pasture before "nomadic" Bronze people arrival, some crisis could have occurred (elm disease), cheftain society type developped before Metals people colonizations, farmers had sometimes slaughters between them and so on... it seems Irish people began to be more ad stay on the pastoral side than the purely agricole one, whatever the first culture, it deserve deeper study, but soils could explain this at some degree.
Prudence.

[moore2moore]

Start with 1,000 members of each haplogroup, 1k R1b, 1k I2, etc, up to 6 of them (or use subclades of one haplogroup), simulating mixed population of 6 thousand males. Roll a dice to determine who will die accidently. 1 for R1b dying, 2 for I2, etc. Do 4,800 rounds, simulating death of most of the tribe, and check proportion of each haplogoup.
I assure you that each haplogroup will be close to 200 members, probably not more than 10% fluctuation. If you increase the tribe to 100 thousand members the fluctuation of proportions of haplogroups will be even smaller, like 1%.

Now, do the same exercise for only 10 members of each haplogroup, tribe of 60 males. Roll the dice 48 times, till 12 members of the tribe are left. This time check proportions. Not only they will have bigger disproportions, but most likely you wiped out one or two haplogroups. Even if 20 dies off, there is a chance of losing one complete haplogroup.

With all due respect, your exercise is void ab initio. There are no (few) groups in the world where the beginning population was precisely and neatly and evenly divided amongs haplogroups.

[LeBrok]

With all due respect, your exercise is void ab initio. There are no (few) groups in the world where the beginning population was precisely and neatly and evenly divided amongs haplogroups.

In case you don't realise, it is an example of a proces. Likewise your example is an example of a supposed process, and not real life scenario. As I mentioned before, and you conveniently, not addressing, is the fact that all today's and ancient mixes of Hgs came by way of various processes mentioned above.
Can you explain by way of numbers how the Neolithic Farmers, of Southern Europe, which genetic autosomal admixture is still dominant up to 90% in Sardinia, manage to lose dominance of their G2a haplogroup? By your game of numbers hypotheses, major haplogroups have bigger chance to become even more dominant. Once on a top it can't lose, right?
Unless there are other forces in the universe of population genetics.

[Fire Haired14]

Does anyone know if there was a lot of MCIR derived in Unetice or any other Central European Bronze Age groups that might have moved down into Italy? Maybe it came with them?

The main variants are in SNPs where derived alleles can be the result of DNA damage. RISE98 and RISE94 Sweden circa 2000 B, RISE395 and RISE386 Sintashta circa 1800 BC, RISE500 Andronovo circa 1400 BC. Those are the only confirmed by files provided by srkz online. He hasn't processed most though.

[Greying Wanderer]

Moesan

The hemachromatosismutations in cause are common in Brittany ; it seems Czechs haveat least one of them and another inherited from Slavs. So crossingsdon't always eliminate mutations which are letal at homozygoticstade. Genetics...

Milk has very low iron so hemachromatosis mutations that retain iron may have been beneficial and selected for if the diet was heavily dependent on milk.

[Alan]

the wheel was invented 3500 years ago in a place unknown

Most likely Kura_Araxes, who had even horses prior to Sintashta, or even the predating Leyla Tepe. It is also said that Maykop had some of the earliest wheels.

So somewhere around this Leyla Tepe, Kura-Araxes, Maykop, Mesopotamia, Yamna axis it must have been invented.

"Evidence of wheeled vehicles appears from the second half of the 4th millennium BC, near-simultaneously in Mesopotamia (Sumerian civilization), the Northern Caucasus (Maykop culture) and Central Europe, so that the question of which culture originally invented the wheeled vehicle is still unsolved."

If wheels are found almost simultaneously in these regions than it must come from an ancestral culture that unites them. This can only be farmers/herders.

[Alan]

sorry all, but i can't stay on the chair with the new data, so...

i think i got it all... [caution, monthy piton's mode]:

It was around 2923 BCE that there was a concile of indoeuropean herders of Yamnaya, someone said:

- ye! let's go to invade Poland!
- are you crazy? between future Berlin and Minsk there are 3 milion people and we are 200000, moreover they inhabit amist forests not very suitable for herding...
- shut up! you know how big breasts have Polish women?
- how are?
- like that!...
- oh!
- so let's go there!
- let's go!

so R1a and R1b came together to Poland

[seriously, it could be more the case that farmers in Europe were suffering plagues or a more provable starvation after years of bad crops, the same climatic difficulties would have pushed IE to the north?]

sometime around 2310 BCE the Corded Ware king said:

- i'm thristy of blood! i wish to anhilate everybody west of Elbe river in few years!
- we serve you king! let's go...
- no!, you can't! you are R1a bastards, sons of Polish who..., only pure R1b will follow me!
- oh! we will stay here, we don't like to follow d... sukaz!

David and Tomenable mode: "Thats exactly how it happened!" lol

Now seriously There is absolutely nothing that speaks for Bell Beaker R1b being descend of Corded Ware. I rather thing we are dealing here with two seperate waves of herding groups.

In fact there are rather signs that Corded Ware people were massacred by indigineous cultures of Central Germany. This might be the reason why actually almost non of the Corded Ware yDNA has survived. But this again is an important information the people will not mention.

[Angela]

Most likely Kura_Araxes, who had even horses prior to Sintashta, or even the predating Leyla Tepe. It is also said that Maykop had some of the earliest wheels.

So somewhere around this Leyla Tepe, Kura-Araxes, Maykop, Mesopotamia, Yamna axis it must have been invented.


If wheels are found almost simultaneously in these regions than it must come from an ancestral culture that unites them. This can only be farmers/herders.

By central Europe they mean TRB. That's where the first representation is found, and it's from the 4th millennium BC.

See:
http://archaeology.about.com/od/neol...d-Vehicles.htm

See:https://books.google.com/books?id=mXKGAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=first+ wheeled+carts+in+TRB+culture&source=bl&ots=mk46kw8 9W6&sig=zxXuMILqXVew66KMJebZXWN-CIE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1qs6svYnKAhVLXh4KHSNRBi 4Q6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=first%20wheeled%20carts%20i n%20TRB%20culture&f=false

[Tomenable]

Angela, that's a very interesting news that TRB had some of the earliest wheels.

TRB has mostly EEF+WHG genetics, but there could be some early Indo-European / Steppe penetration into that culture.

One part of TRB culture, was the so called Baalberge group: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalberge_group

Baalberge group includes one sample of R1 haplogroup (but probably it was just R1*, neither R1a nor R1b).

According to some sources, there was indeed some steppe influence in Baalberge:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...blog-page.html



The Baalberge sample of R1 is from the same period, as the controversial "R1b" sample from Atapuerca (ATP3):

(I've added Rathlin genomes to the table - 3 x R1b1a2, including 2 from 2750-1750 BC and 1 from 1750-750 BC):

Y-DNA Discontinuities (updated chart - Rathlin R1b added)

[Tomenable]

The sample of R1 haplogroup (most likely basal R1* ???) from Baalberge / TRB is:

Germany, Quedlinburg IX [I0559 / QLB 15], date 3645-3537 BC, Y-DNA - R1 (xR1b1a2, xR1a1a).

Sources (according to Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys):

Brandt 2013; Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015; Additional info on Y-DNA from Vince Tilroe

[LeBrok]

Most likely Kura_Araxes, who had even horses prior to Sintashta, or even the predating Leyla Tepe. It is also said that Maykop had some of the earliest wheels.

So somewhere around this Leyla Tepe, Kura-Araxes, Maykop, Mesopotamia, Yamna axis it must have been invented.





If wheels are found almost simultaneously in these regions than it must come from an ancestral culture that unites them. This can only be farmers/herders.

Wagon was an amazing invention. Paradigm shift type invention. I'm sure it has spread very fast through all the regions in one generation or two. It will be hard to determine who invented it first, ever.

[Tomenable]

A heavy four-wheeled wagon was probably invented somewhere between the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea, because this is roughly half-way from Sumer to Central Europe, so the most reasonable assumption is that - if it spread so quickly over such a vast area - then it must have been invented somewhere in the middle between the two regions.

A lighter and swifter, two-wheeled chariot, was invented much later to the north of the Aral Sea in the Ural Steppes, and it was also spreading in all directions at a similar pace - as this map below shows:

[Tomenable]

If wheels are found almost simultaneously in these regions than it must come from an ancestral culture that unites them

Really ???

If we apply this logic to all inventions, then it would mean that Gunpowder was invented already before 36,200-45,000 years ago, because that was the last time when an ancestral culture that united both the Chinese and the Europeans existed:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/...st-Asians.html

Gunpowder was found almost simultaneously (only a gap of up to several centuries) in China and in Europe.

[Angela]

Wagon was an amazing invention. Paradigm shift type invention. I'm sure it has spread very fast through all the regions in one generation or two. It will be hard to determine who invented it first, ever.

Exactly. Look at all these dates:

According to the University of Chicago:
"The wheel: The ancient Mesopotamians were using the wheel by about 3,500 B.C. They used the potter’s wheel to throw pots and wheels on carts to transport both people and goods. "
http://www-news.uchicago.edu/release...i-firsts.shtml

There's also statements to the effect that the first actual wheel was found in Mesopotamia.

From this link:
http://archaeology.about.com/od/neol...Vehicles_2.htm

"Although long-standing tradition credits the southern Mesopotamian civilization with invention of wheeled vehicles, today scholars are less certain, as there appears to be a nearly simultaneous record of use throughout the Mediterranean basin."

"In technological terms, the earliest wheeled vehicles appear to been four-wheeled, as determined from models identified at Uruk (Iraq) and Bronocice (Poland-3500BC). A two-wheeled cart is illustrated at the end of the fourth millennium BC, at Lohne-Engelshecke, Germany (~3402-2800 cal BC [cal BC])"

"The oldest known evidence of wheeled vehicles in Europe comes from the Flintbek site, a Funnel Beaker culture near Kiel, Germany, dated to 3420-3385 cal BC. A series of cart tracks was identified beneath the northwestern half of the long barrow, measuring just over 20 m long and consisting of two parallel bundles of wheel ruts, up to 60 cm wide. Each single wheel rut was 5-6 cm wide, and the gauge of the wagons has been estimated at 1.1 to 1.2 m wide."
(Flintbek is near the Baltic Sea.)

"Reliable dates indicate that two- and four-wheeled vehicles were known from the mid-fourth millennium BC throughout most of Europe. "

The earliest one on the steppe mentioned in this article is in a Catacomb Culture Kurgan:
"In 2014, Shishlina and colleagues reported the recovery of a dismantled four-wheeled full-sized wagon, direct-dated to between 2398-2141 cal BC. This Early Bronze Age Steppe Society (specifically East Manych Catacomb culture) site in Russia contained the interment of an elderly man, whose grave goods also included a bronze knife and rod, and a turnip-shaped pot.The rectangular wagon frame measured 1.65x0.7 meters (5.4x2.3 ft) and the wheels, supported by horizonal axles, were .48 m (1.6 ft) in diameter. Side panels were constructed of horizontally placed planks; and the interior was probably covered with reed, felt, or woollen mat. Curiously, the different parts of the wagon were made of a variety of wood, including elm, ash, maple and oak."


I did find earlier evidence of wheels on the steppe in this paper, but it's 2900BC.
https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/in...File/16087/pdf

[LeBrok]

There is also evidence of wheeled toys in Cucuteni culture:

Wheels[edit]

Very few researchers, e.g., Asko Parpola, an Indologist at the University of Helsinki in Finland, believe that the CT-culture used the wheel with wagons. However, only miniature models of animals on 4 wheels have been found, and they date to the first half of the fourth millennium BC.^[51] Such models are often thought to have been children's toys; nevertheless, the do convey the idea that objects could be pulled on wheels. Up to now there is no whatever evidence for wheels used with real wagons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucute...ture#Geography
No real wagons were found yet there of that age, but at least these toy wagons proof that they understood the concept, and most likely toys were based on real things. It seems that wagons spread very fast through all farming societies.

[Drac II]

Really ???

If we apply this logic to all inventions, then it would mean that Gunpowder was invented already before 36,200-45,000 years ago, because that was the last time when an ancestral culture that united both the Chinese and the Europeans existed:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/...st-Asians.html

Gunpowder was found almost simultaneously (only a gap of up to several centuries) in China and in Europe.

Not disputing your main argument, but just point out that the gap between the appearance of gunpowder in China and in Europe is big enough to grant the Chinese the priority in its invention. Of course, as your line of argumentation well implies, it is perfectly possible that Europeans discovered it by other means, like coming in contact with an intermediary between China and Europe (for example, Arabs, Persians, Turks), or independently on their own. Direct contact with the first inventor or having an ancestral culture in common is neither implied nor necessary for two separate populations to be able to discover the same thing, either simultaneously or at a later period. Same thing, therefore, with the wheel or any other invention/discovery.

[Tomenable]

Drac II - my point was not to dispute that the Chinese invented gunpowder (this is beyond any doubts, in fact), but to show that inventions can spread very fast. Angela wrote that wagons were known in 3 different places in the second half of the 4th millennium BC. That's an interval of 500 years. Gunpowder also spread from China to Europe during no more than 500 years since its invention. Of course Europeans acquired gunpowder either via the Mongols or via the Arabs and Turks (it is not certain from which of the two groups), who in turn had acquired it from the Chinese before.

And yes, the same invention can be invented in more than one place independently. But gunpowder wasn't - it just spread very fast.

As for wheels:

We know that wheel was known also in Pre-Columbian America, but they didn't figure out that it could be used for transportation:

Mayan wheels:





They used them for games:

[Alan]

Really ???

If we apply this logic to all inventions, then it would mean that Gunpowder was invented already before 36,200-45,000 years ago, because that was the last time when an ancestral culture that united both the Chinese and the Europeans existed:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/...st-Asians.html

Gunpowder was found almost simultaneously (only a gap of up to several centuries) in China and in Europe.

you have a 4000 BC case of wheels simultenously in Mesopotamia and the Caucasus. just slightly later in Yamna. Also take in mind in the links provided by Angela th archeoligcal evidences show that even two wheeled wagons were known to some cultures prior to Sintashta. What if not farming/Herding cultures do connect 4000 BC Central Europe with the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and the Steppes?

To me it is an obvious thing it was invented somewhere between Mesopotamia, Kura Araxes, Maykop, Leyla Tepe and Yamna.

Is it too obvious to be true? Also wagons make completely sense in farming/herding societies. What kind of role would they play in other societies? Or are you implying that also wagons were invented by Easern Hunters and Gatherers? For what usage?

[Alan]

There is also evidence of wheeled toys in Cucuteni culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucute...ture#Geography
No real wagons were found yet there of that age, but at least these toy wagons proof that they understood the concept, and most likely toys were based on real things. It seems that wagons spread very fast through all farming societies.

As mentioned above the invention of wheels obviously is in connection to agricultural lifestyle.

[Angela]

It's unwise, in my opinion, to rely only on one or a few perhaps dated studies. Nor do I think that the fact that wheels were used in games by the Maya but they never created a cart is really on point given that the representations we're talking about in TRB, for example, is of an actual cart, wheels, axle and all.

Anyway, here you go...a 2012 paper specifically and only on wagons.
http://www.academia.edu/1817159/Preh...ries_Minor_32_

She reviews all the prior papers and shows where recent discoveries and re-dating changes the conclusions that should be drawn.

There is actual evidence of wheel ruts, planked road sections etc. and other indisputable marks of actual wagon use from the mid 4th century all the way in Switzerland and on the coast of the Baltic in farming communities.

I don't understand why, when specialists in the field are tentative in assigning the "credit" to a specific group, we see such certainty here on this Board.

[MOESAN]

Moesan



Milk has very low iron so hemachromatosis mutations that retain iron may have been beneficial and selected for if the diet was heavily dependent on milk.

exactly what I red and ment: just to recall that selection is not straighforwards sometimes: balance between homozygoty and heterozygoty for some diseases. How explain so numerous letal genes survived so long times among diverse populations...

[MOESAN]

It's presence in North-West France can be from much later times, when Britons from Britain settled there (hence the name Bretagne).

Spite real and effective, the Brittons migration into Brittany (and at some lower level into North France) cannot explain by itself the XX°Century genetic situation of Brittany. Some of the links between Brittany and the Isles are older and the stream direction was the opposite at first. The Britton migration (in fact more than a settlement period) has only reinforced the similarities which are far from an identity.

[LeBrok]

you have a 4000 BC case of wheels simultenously in Mesopotamia and the Caucasus. just slightly later in Yamna. Also take in mind in the links provided by Angela th archeoligcal evidences show that even two wheeled wagons were known to some cultures prior to Sintashta. What if not farming/Herding cultures do connect 4000 BC Central Europe with the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and the Steppes?

To me it is an obvious thing it was invented somewhere between Mesopotamia, Kura Araxes, Maykop, Leyla Tepe and Yamna.

Why obvious? Did they find a wheel with inscription "This is the first wheel in the world"? ;) European finds are as old as from Near East, so who knows.

Is it too obvious to be true? Also wagons make completely sense in farming/herding societies. What kind of role would they play in other societies? Or are you implying that also wagons were invented by Easern Hunters and Gatherers? For what usage?

It makes a perfect sense for seasonal hunters who travel hundreds or thousands miles after migratory animals. In these setting a wagon is a house on wheels, perfect for grasslands of the Steppe. Having said that, hunters didn't have tools to carve nice big wheels from big logs, not mentioning the rest of a wagon. In some way copper and bronze tools were essential. Prerequisite to get to the wagon technology. Only copper age farmers could to this.

[MOESAN]

I beg your pardon concerning some of my posts very uneasy to read: it occurs (helas) for long posts I copy and paste since I've changed my Windows 7 into Windows 10. I 'll try to find a solution in future.
Please, don't think this is caused by too much drinking!!!

[Tomenable]

Alan,

Is it too obvious to be true? Also wagons make completely sense in farming/herding societies. What kind of role would they play in other societies?

Wagons make most sense in highly mobile societies of nomadic herders, because they allow them to transport more stuff with them. And of course a society which invented wagons had to have draught animals (such as horses or oxen) first, before wagons, unless we are talking about such types of wagons as: a small cart, a wheelbarrow, a mandrawn wagon, or a tipcart. The Mayas or the Incas apparently did not come up with an idea that wheels could be used for transportation, because they did not have draught animals (except for llamas and alpacas among the Incas - but these are more like pack animals, they are too small and weak to be draught animals).

LeBrok,

It makes a perfect sense for seasonal hunters who travel hundreds or thousands miles after migratory animals.

Not if they don't have draught animals. So domestication of horse (or another draught animal) had to happen first.