Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26

Thread: Possible Post-Neolithic Immigration Flow From the Fertile Crescent

  1. #1
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    2 members found this post helpful.

    Lightbulb Possible Post-Neolithic Immigration Flow From the Fertile Crescent

    After Anatolian farmers, there could be yet another migration flow from the Middle East, which affected Southern Europe:

    It seems that the majority of Maltese ancestry is from those immigrants:

    LINK:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...n-South-Europe

    Chart (interesting is this breakdown for Yamna West and East - I guess it's Yamna_Samara and Yamna_Kalmykia ???):





    MAP:



    Who was that and what haplogroups could they bring with them ???

  2. #2
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    ​See these differences:

    Bell Beaker:


    Yamna_West = 18,6%; Yamna_East = 14,1%; Kotias (Teal / CHG ???) = 9%

    Corded Ware:

    Yamna_West = 9,7%; Yamna_East = 24,2%; Kotias (Teal / CHG ???) = 25,8%

    Does this show, that R1a is from "Teal people" (from Iran?), or perhaps R1a was present in Eastern Yamna?

    Maybe this explains where did R1a Xiaohe mummies buried in the Tarim Basin come from ???

  3. #3
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    After Anatolian farmers, there could be yet another migration flow from the Middle East, which affected Southern Europe:

    It seems that the majority of Maltese ancestry is from those immigrants:

    LINK:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...n-South-Europe

    Chart (interesting is this breakdown for Yamna West and East - I guess it's Yamna_Samara and Yamna_Kalmykia ???):





    MAP:



    Who was that and what haplogroups could they bring with them ???

    Why does every amateur EXCLUDE the early Neolithic from 4000BC or older from these calculations ?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  4. #4
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Do we have West Yamnaya DNA finally?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  5. #5
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    There is. According to Eurogene's CHG_K8, there's post-Neolithic West Asian ancestry in all of Europe. It must have brought most of the J and E1b in Europe. The EEF+WHG+Steppe doesn't perfectly explain European genetics. The fourth ancestor is "Mysterious West Asians".




  6. #6
    Regular Member Promenade's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-01-16
    Posts
    288

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U106 R-L1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1e

    Country: USA - New York



    Which J2 subclades would the "Fertile crescent" admixture be associated with in your opinion? I wonder how it would compare to the J2 of the CHG in Europe since it seems so absent in Europe despite R1 being so common. The spread of J2 in Europe does seem to point to more of a southeast entry rather than one through the steppe.

    I remember reading that there were two separate waves of farmers into Europe. Perhaps this "Fertile crescent" admixture is the other wave? Is there archaeological evidence of another type of farming culture in neolithic Europe other than the one associated with the EEF?

  7. #7
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,455


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 members found this post helpful.
    The West Asian admixture in South Italy and the Balkans is linked to haplogroup J2, E-M123 and T (and probably also R1b-L23). It probably came through a late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age migration from Anatolia, around the time of the great upheavals c. 1200 BCE and the Sea Peoples. The development of the Iron Age would have allowed a mass of commoners to literally take up arms and start armies of their own, rising against the ruling elite of the Bronze Age (essentially Indo-Europeans). It's not impossible that this new wave of Iron Age warriors originated in Mesopotamia and spread across Anatolia until southern and central Italy.

    Around the same period the Phoenicians also started colonising Malta, parts of Sicily and Sardinia, the Maghreb and southern Iberia, bring also lots of J2 and E-M123, but also some R1a-Z93, Q1b and J1-P58.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  8. #8
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,731


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    could this 'fertile crescent' component simply be the consequence of Arabic-Islamic rule during the middle ages in Malta and southern Italy ?

  9. #9
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    could this 'fertile crescent' component simply be the consequence of Arabic-Islamic rule during the middle ages in Malta and southern Italy ?
    The impact is way to large to be Arabic. Plus only West Iberians and South Italians have any African ancestry, and it comes from North Africa not Arabia.

  10. #10
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,731


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The impact is way to large to be Arabic. Plus only West Iberians and South Italians have any African ancestry, and it comes from North Africa not Arabia.
    Malta has been Arabic too, the language is even Arabic

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language

    and northern Africans are Berbers and Arabs who arrived with Islamic conquerors

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-08-13
    Location
    Sassari, Sardinia
    Posts
    46

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-S17721 (U-106)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2j

    Ethnic group
    Italo-Celto-Germanic
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    could this 'fertile crescent' component simply be the consequence of Arabic-Islamic rule during the middle ages in Malta and southern Italy ?
    Only Sicily had long lasting Islamic rule with the mainland receiving raids by the Saracens. Sardinia also received raids but their numbers are low. It could be the Sea Peoples but I've read, though this is not proven, that Sardinia and Sicily might be Sherden and Shekelesh that the Egyptians refer to. Then again that could have been multi-ethnic. Maybe it was brought by Greek colonizers to southern Italy and later moved around by Romans? There was a lot of movement between the Levant and Greece in the time of the Greek dark ages. Then the Phoenicians could have spread it farther. I dunno...

  12. #12
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Malta has been Arabic too, the language is even Arabic

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language

    and northern Africans are Berbers and Arabs who arrived with Islamic conquerors
    between the sea peoples in malta and islam there is nearly 2000 years difference.

    the first known inhabitants that i recall are the phoenicians.............and phoenicians are not arabs

  13. #13
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    Which J2 subclades would the "Fertile crescent" admixture be associated with in your opinion? I wonder how it would compare to the J2 of the CHG in Europe since it seems so absent in Europe despite R1 being so common. The spread of J2 in Europe does seem to point to more of a southeast entry rather than one through the steppe.

    I remember reading that there were two separate waves of farmers into Europe. Perhaps this "Fertile crescent" admixture is the other wave? Is there archaeological evidence of another type of farming culture in neolithic Europe other than the one associated with the EEF?
    Judging by distribution of haplogroups of first farmers who reached Europe, the EEF guys, the first farmers of the Fertile Crescent were most likely G2a.

  14. #14
    Elite member
    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,508

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    could this 'fertile crescent' component simply be the consequence of Arabic-Islamic rule during the middle ages in Malta and southern Italy ?
    If they have used modern Iraqis, Syrian and Lebanese as proxy for this "Fertile Crescent" component obviously a good portion of it will be due to Arabic admixture but not all.

  15. #15
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,261


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    The question is a valid one; however, I am getting very tired of these increasingly bizarre and badly created amateur "maps" and "calculators". "Kurd" over at anthrogenica seems to know what he is doing, and his methodology is absolutely transparent. He also is clearly aware of the problems involved and how easy it is either wittingly or unwittingly to create "biased" or just incorrect results. However, even in his case, I question whether an analysis of IBS with ancient samples can really be reliable, especially given the quality of these ancient samples. IBD analysis is even more problematical. I took a look at the results by country at the analysis over at eurogenes. In many cases, out of a sample set of, say, twelve, often 10 can show no sharing whatsoever, but an "average" is computed using the remaining two. I'm not at all convinced by this kind of methodology. If anyone wants to look at the mathematics and the algorithms necessary to come to any meaningful conclusions about IBD, even using high quality modern genomes, I would suggest going to the methodology section of the Ralph and Coop paper:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

    I highly doubt this has much to do with North African domination, as anyone who has paid any attention to y Dna and IBD analysis of Europe in general or of Italy in comparison to countries like Spain or Portugal would know.

    The yDna analyses have been discussed endlessly on this site, particularly in reference to North African specific subclades of both yDna and mtDna, and people should be aware of them.

    As to IBD analyses there is the much criticized, by some, Botigue et al. Still, with the usual caveats as to direction and timing of gene flow, and the small percentages involved, it still indicates the general trends, in my opinion, and the fact that it is doubtful this has any major part to play.
    http://www.pnas.org/content/110/29/11791.abstract

    As discussed on the Dienekes site:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/06...and-north.html

    In terms of autosomal analyses there are also the results at 23andme to consider for both Iberians and southern Italians. I've never seen anything greater than 2-3% for any southern Italians. Neither do North African populations show up on oracle results in calculators, at least not for Italians, in any meaningful way.

    Speaking of calculators, someone ran some of the ancient Anatolian farmers through Gedmatch.

    "Gedmatch results of an Early Farmer from Anatolia

    M897077 I0707 Anatolian EF

    EUtest Oracle results:

    Kit M897077

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 WEST_MED 46.98
    2 EAST_MED 32.62
    3 MIDDLE_EASTERN 10.57
    4 ATLANTIC 9.59
    5 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 0.21
    6 EAST_AFRICAN 0.03

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sardinian 19.83
    2 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 30.51
    3 Tuscan 31.43
    4 GR 31.65
    5 North_Italian 33.52
    6 Moroccan 33.96
    7 AJ 34.13
    8 PT 36.5
    9 ES 36.7
    10 Algerian 38.39
    11 Samaritan 39.07
    12 Mozabite_Berber 40.98
    13 RO 41.39
    14 FR 43.19
    15 Druze 43.37
    16 Serbian 44.14
    17 TR 44.62
    18 French_Basque 45.13
    19 Armenian 45.38
    20 Assyrian 45.63"

    The FST values are high, of course.

    Here are the much better (lower FST) values from Dodecad K=12b:
    Dodecad K12b Oracle results:
    "Kit M897077

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Atlantic_Med 48.5
    2 Caucasus 37.07
    3 Southwest_Asian 12.16
    4 Northwest_African 2.24
    5 Southeast_Asian 0.03

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 20.91
    2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 21.09
    3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 21.4
    4 Tuscan (HGDP) 21.73
    5 TSI30 (Metspalu) 22.27
    6 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 22.5
    7 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 22.58
    8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 24.51
    9 North_Italian (HGDP) 25.24
    10 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 25.26
    11 Sardinian (HGDP) 25.79
    12 O_Italian (Dodecad) 26.53
    13 Greek (Dodecad) 26.91
    14 N_Italian (Dodecad) 27.31
    15 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 29.51
    16 Cypriots (Behar) 29.54
    17 Baleares (1000Genomes) 30.29
    18 Murcia (1000Genomes) 30.41
    19 Canarias (1000Genomes) 31
    20 Galicia (1000Genomes) 32.55"

    Still not really low FST values, but a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then. So, how much of this is just because Italy harbors the most ancient Anatolian farmer ancestry, much more than do Middle Easterners or North Africans? I don't know, but I think it does have a role to play, as even some IBD analyses have shown which use the ancient samples from the Neolithic in both Anatolia and Europe and compare them to European populations. Either Tuscany or northern Italy show the highest percentages in those studies, although so far as I know southern Italian samples weren't used in the ones I saw. Indeed, as I've pointed out a number of times, when the first analysis of the Gok sample came out, the similarity to Sicilians was pointed out (after Sardinians, of course)

    That's not to say that other, later migrations might not have a part to play as well. There are the Bronze Age migrations, some of which may have come from Anatolia (let's see if Drews was correct), early Iron Age migrations, as has been mentioned, and late first millennium BC colonizations from Greek city states from mainland Greece, the islands, and the western coast of Anatolia. The Phoenicians may have had some small role to play. Perhaps Byzantine era migrations also had a minor impact.

    Certainly, there were no "Arabic" migrations into Tuscany and northern Italy; indeed, the vast majority of any settlements in the two hundred year occupation of Sicily was by Berbers, not Arabs, who only constituted the elite. Southern Italy was occupied only for a few decades.

    In this regard I'd point out that while southern Italians and Sicilians at 23andme get some percentage of "Middle East", Middle East there is defined as Anatolia, Iran, Armenia, the Caucasus etc., not the Levant and certainly not Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia and other Arabian peninsula populations form part of the North Africa cluster, which has already been discussed.

    I honestly don't know the explanation, and I don't think anyone else does either. Most particularly I don't think the "map" posted is either reliable or informative, in my opinion. The answer is only going to come from ancient dna.
    Last edited by Angela; 12-01-16 at 02:43.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  16. #16
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,455


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    could this 'fertile crescent' component simply be the consequence of Arabic-Islamic rule during the middle ages in Malta and southern Italy ?
    No. We are talking about mostly West Asian admixture rather than Southwest Asian. Then, it encompasses all southern Italy, whereas the Arabs only settled in Sicily. Additionally, the Y-DNA haplogroups in southern Italy only have a tiny minority of J1-P58, and most of it outside Sicily could be of Jewish origin.

    Malta has more Southwest Asian ancestry, but since it was a Phoenician colony it's hard to tell the Phoenician from the later Arabic DNA apart.

    Compare the West Asian vs Southwest Asian admixtures. Aegean/Mediterranean Anatolia has essentially the same proportions as Greece and southern/central Italy, and the haplogroup mix is very similar as well. The Greek (+ Etruscan) colonisation is still the best explanation for the West Asian admixture in Italy. The real question is when did those West Asian genes and Y-haplogroup J2 get into Greece, when we now know that Neolithic Greeks were just like other European Neolithic farmers ? I have always said that the first J2 wave came in the Late Bronze Age with the Minoans. But a second wave would have been around 1200 BCE as I have explained above.




  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    03-06-15
    Posts
    112


    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.
    The plot looks totally amateurish and is not supported by any peer reviewed paper. Moreover we don't have any ancient sample from the fertile crescent yet, so the calculator is totally wrong.In Europe Greeks have the most post Neolitich West Asian ancestry (40%), followed by Albanians, Italians and South Slavs, in this order, according to the last Eurogenes calculator which used the recent published CHG samples from Georgia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The impact is way to large to be Arabic. Plus only West Iberians and South Italians have any African ancestry, and it comes from North Africa not Arabia.
    All Iberians (not just western ones) and only Sicilians have some SSA in Europe, my Puerto Rican friend.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    03-06-15
    Posts
    112


    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The West Asian admixture in South Italy and the Balkans is linked to haplogroup J2, E-M123 and T (and probably also R1b-L23). It probably came through a late Bronze Age or Early Iron Age migration from Anatolia, around the time of the great upheavals c. 1200 BCE and the Sea Peoples. The development of the Iron Age would have allowed a mass of commoners to literally take up arms and start armies of their own, rising against the ruling elite of the Bronze Age (essentially Indo-Europeans). It's not impossible that this new wave of Iron Age warriors originated in Mesopotamia and spread across Anatolia until southern and central Italy.

    Around the same period the Phoenicians also started colonising Malta, parts of Sicily and Sardinia, the Maghreb and southern Iberia, bring also lots of J2 and E-M123, but also some R1a-Z93, Q1b and J1-P58.
    You have no idea about what you are talking about. South Italians and Sardinians have 2-3 times more Anatolian Neolitich farmer admixture than modern Turks.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Milan's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-15
    Posts
    358


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Maciamo,you make good point that J2 could have come in Southern Europe 1200 B.C around the time of the sea peoples,if we assume that during this time was really a migration or as you explained the subjected could have took arms against their overlords,it seems that there were two migrations in what is today Greece or Southern Europe and probably spread more north?if we even take the Greek mythology and myth,their claim of ancestry on Danaus(Daanans or Achaeans) that were part of the Mycenaean Greece they trace their ancestry in Egypt with some myths further to Hyksos people,which were expelled around 1580 to 1550 BC reign of Ahmose in Egypt,Mycenaean civilization lasted from 1600–1100 BCE the years match,Hyksos origin is difficult to explain but they were prevalent Semitic ancestry with maybe some Hurrian but Indo-European component is difficult to explain,however this go against Indo-European language hypothesis in Greece and the previous inhabitants,Semitic component in Minoans is easier to explain their language is not Indo-European,but can they spread this haplogroup from one island? the question however remain open for this as well the language hypothesis,origin of the Greeks and previous inhabitants there.
    Last edited by Milan; 13-01-16 at 00:42.

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    12-10-11
    Posts
    713


    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vukodav View Post
    All Iberians (not just western ones) and only Sicilians have some SSA in Europe, my Puerto Rican friend.
    That's not what many studies show, continental Italians have it too (not "just Sicilians"), "Joey".

  21. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    12-10-11
    Posts
    713


    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    could this 'fertile crescent' component simply be the consequence of Arabic-Islamic rule during the middle ages in Malta and southern Italy ?
    Not likely, except if you go by the results suggested by studies like Fiorito et al. for southern Italy, which imply that the admixture there is from medieval times, while for the rest of Italy is closer to Etruscan as well as during Roman times.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Maciamo,you make good point that J2 could have come in Southern Europe 1200 B.C around the time of the sea peoples,if we asume that during this time was really a migration or as you explained the subjected could have took arms against their overlords,it seems that there were two migrations in what is today Greece or Southern Europe and probably spread more north?if we even take the Greek mythology and myth,their claim of ancestry on Danaus(Daanans or Achaeans) that were part of the Mycenaean Greece they trace their ancestry in Egypt with some myths further to Hyksos people,which were expelled around 1580 to 1550 BC reign of Ahmose in Egypt,Mycenaean civilization is asumed to have lasted from 1600–1100 BCE the years match,Hyksos origin is difficult to explain but they were prevalent Semitic ancestry with maybe some Hurrian but Indo-European component is difficult to explain,however this go against Indo-European language hypothesis in Greece and the previous inhabitants,Semitic component in Minoans is easier to explain their language is not Indo-European either,but can they spread this haplogroup from one island? the question however remain open for this as well the language hypothesis,origin of the Greeks and previous inhabitants there.
    there was no semetic language in anatolia..............the languages of the Hittites, Hatti and Hurrians and their thousands upon thousands of clay text tablets have been studied by countless numbers of linguists and no semetic has been found in these anatolian writings

    If as you say, minoans where semetic , then their origin as per recent historical studies would via Iraq ( elamite/sumer?) and originally south-asia ( india-pakistan ) and not from anatolia.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Milan's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-15
    Posts
    358


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    there was no semetic language in anatolia..............the languages of the Hittites, Hatti and Hurrians and their thousands upon thousands of clay text tablets have been studied by countless numbers of linguists and no semetic has been found in these anatolian writings

    If as you say, minoans where semetic , then their origin as per recent historical studies would via Iraq ( elamite/sumer?) and originally south-asia ( india-pakistan ) and not from anatolia.
    Minoan is unclassified language,Minoans were on Crete haven't said is Semitic only guessing of the prevalent haplogroups and their flow in the period discussed above,it is neither Semitic or Indo-European,they were traders mostly with East Mediterranean cultures they must have had some "lingua franca" for communication among them,later came new people this culture start from 3650 to 1400 BCE,they were overthrown by Mycenaean Greeks.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Minoan is unclassified language,Minoans were on Crete haven't said is Semitic only guessing of the prevalent haplogroups and their flow in the period discussed above,it is neither Semitic or Indo-European,they were traders mostly with East Mediterranean cultures they must have had some "lingua franca" for communication among them,later came new people this culture start from 3650 to 1400 BCE,they were overthrown by Mycenaean Greeks.
    The 2014 israeli digs at Tell es-Safi and Megiddo on the philistine people shows they have minoan pottery and spoke a cypro-minoan language called Ashkelon . they also stated these philistines are originally eastern minoan people who settled in the southern levant after the collapse of minoa/crete. Clearly this is also non-semetic language .
    They also assume that because they found no evidence of cremations or graves, that the philistines buried their dead at sea, like the minoans
    Last edited by Sile; 13-01-16 at 02:17.

  25. #25
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Minoan is unclassified language,Minoans were on Crete haven't said is Semitic only guessing of the prevalent haplogroups and their flow in the period discussed above,it is neither Semitic or Indo-European,they were traders mostly with East Mediterranean cultures they must have had some "lingua franca" for communication among them,later came new people this culture start from 3650 to 1400 BCE,they were overthrown by Mycenaean Greeks.
    Minoan itself was for sure not a Semitic language. Semitic languages have the distinct feature of having consonantal roots (which is why you can write the consonants alone and the meaning of a word isn't lost - which is a feature of the original Phoenician alphabet). I'm not ruling out that one of the other "pre-Greek" languages spoken elsewhere in "Greece" at the time were in fact Semitic, as Greek has a good number of early Semitic loans to it. As an example, the words for 'wine' ((ϝ)οινος) and 'gold' (χρυσος) are likely borrowed from a Semitic source. Alternatively, these are borrowings from (Bronze Age) contact with Semitic-speaking peoples (which is also plausible).
    Last edited by Taranis; 13-01-16 at 21:30. Reason: fixing typos

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •