Ancient DNA England: Iron age, Roman-Gladiator, and Anglo Saxon

[Greying Wanderer]

I meant that the process started 6-10 ky ago. That's what we see from ancient dna, that first alleles related to these processes show up in European genome at about this time. I hope you agree that it was a slow long process in both cases, which lasted till today, and that it was not a sudden revolution?

I think both processes were likely long but I'm not so sure about slow.

With skin lightening I think it was more likely a sequence of rapid changes with long gaps. So for example I think there was some extra skin lightening in the far north very early - multiple regional versions - and then a lull until people became more mobile and the different groups mixed (edit: and thus picked up multiple ones) and then maybe a second lull until agriculture.

#

On LP although intuitively it makes sense that it would increase slowly over time personally I don't think it did exactly.

I think the gene evolved wherever a long time ago but didn't expand much until it arrived at the atlantic coast because it was necessary there for permanent settlement (cos rainfall -> acid soils -> low wheat yield). Neolithic farmers settled but couldn't sustain their usual population density without the extra calorie boost from LP imo so the first people who arrived who had it expanded dramatically into both Britain and Ireland. I think later invasions from the continent reduced the level of LP in Britain from its Irish peak of 90%+ and then it slowly went up again from there.

One the reasons behind thinking this is it looks to me from Maciamo's maps like the "Irish" R1b was initially more widespread and was pushed back by the continental and north sea streams.

"Irish" http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif
"Alpine" http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif
"North Sea" https://thecampblogbymike.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/haplogroup-r1b-s21.gif

Obviously that's just a guess without much evidence yet but i think we'll find that Bronze Age samples with the "Irish" clade of R1b will have a substantially higher percentage of LP than the continental clades and the eventual pattern will be
- neolithic farmers: none
- Irish R1b: very high
- continental R1b and A-S: lower
- moderns: high again

#

nb if the conifer line was further south back then the same argument could apply to northern Europe as conifers make the soil acid as well so farmers coming up from the south might have hit a wall when they crossed the conifer line

#

edit

all speculation of course but easily disprovable if early Irish clade samples don't have much higher rates of LP than later mixed clades.

 

[Fire Haired14]

I meant that the process started 6-10 ky ago. That's what we see from ancient dna, that first alleles related to these processes show up in European genome at about this time. I hope you agree that it was a slow long process in both cases, which lasted till today, and that it was not a sudden revolution?

We don't have any sizable data-sets from before 8,000 years ago, so we don't know if it began 6-10k. We know that SHG/EHG/EEF had a decent amount of both skin-lightening mutations 8,000 years ago, and that nothing dramatic changed till 2800 BC. Of course there's lots of wholes in data. And because of this there's nothing suggesting a process began or didn't 6-10k.

 

[LeBrok]

I think you are trying to confuse us:

We don't have any sizable data-sets from before 8,000 years ago, so we don't know if it began 6-10k. and that nothing dramatic changed till 2800 BC. Of course there's lots of wholes in data. And because of this there's nothing suggesting a process began or didn't 6-10k.

We know that SHG/EHG/EEF had a decent amount of both skin-lightening mutations 8,000 years ago,

 

[LeBrok]

I think both processes were likely long but I'm not so sure about slow.

With skin lightening I think it was more likely a sequence of rapid changes with long gaps. So for example I think there was some extra skin lightening in the far north very early - multiple regional versions - and then a lull until people became more mobile and the different groups mixed and then maybe a second lull until agriculture.

Yes, different populations had input into this process. Lightening of skin is a combination multi ethnic genome, many mutations, coming in to the right place, the northern Europe. Once they were in the right place, the natural selection took over, forcing positive mutation to be more popular. The lighter skin more popular.

#

On LP although intuitively it makes sense that it would increase slowly over time personally I don't think it did exactly.

I think the gene evolved wherever a long time ago but didn't expand much until it arrived at the atlantic coast because it was necessary there for permanent settlement (cos rainfall -> acid soils -> low wheat yield). Neolithic farmers settled but couldn't sustain their usual population density without the extra calorie boost from LP imo so the first people who arrived who had it expanded dramatically into both Britain and Ireland. I think later invasions from the continent reduced the level of LP in Britain from its Irish peak of 90%+ and then it slowly went up again from there.

One the reasons behind thinking this is it looks to me from Maciamo's maps like the "Irish" R1b was initially more widespread and was pushed back by the continental and north sea streams.

"Irish" http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif
"Alpine" http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif
"North Sea" https://thecampblogbymike.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/haplogroup-r1b-s21.gif

Obviously that's just a guess without much evidence yet but i think we'll find that Bronze Age samples with the "Irish" clade of R1b will have a substantially higher percentage of LP than the continental clades and the eventual pattern will be
- neolithic farmers: none
- Irish R1b: very high
- continental R1b and A-S: lower
- moderns: high again

Maybe R1b herders brought the LP mutation to Northern Europe, why not? However once in the right place, this mutation flourished there in Northern Europe. It wasn't a linear evolution though. When the wheat crops were good the mutation wasn't important. But in times of cold weather and failed crops, milk calories became important and LP mutation was selected in greater numbers. That's why I think that during the Little Ice Age and Dark Ages, the LP was selected positively. LP selection wasn't linear but more like jumps to higher level in times of cold climate times.

#

nb if the conifer line was further south back then the same argument could apply to northern Europe as conifers make the soil acid as well so farmers coming up from the south might have hit a wall when they crossed the conifer line

#

I don't see it in terms of "depleted" soil, but more of a factor of cold climatic change.

all speculation of course but easily disprovable if early Irish clade samples don't have much higher rates of LP than later mixed clades.

That's because LP gene is not attached to Y chromosome, and can "infect" every human being. It just needs to be in the right place and right time, the Northern Europe during cold climate.

 

[Drac II]

Drac, I just noticed that you give a negative rating to virtually everything I post. Well, anything that at all hints that Spaniards might not be twins of Scandinavians or the Irish, anyway. Maybe when I have a chance I'll add them up and keep a running tally which I'll have posted instead of my quote.

My father always told me that someone's enemies say even more about them than their friends. I'm more than pleased with what mine say about me.

How strange, you taunting certain forum members again? Why am I not surprised?

You mean like you and your Italian friends around here giving negative ratings to all my posts addressing your little distortions, manipulations and innuendos about Spaniards while at the same time trying to portray Italians as the brothers of Scandinavians and Germans? Shouldn't you actually be doing your real job as an administrator and keeping the likes of real trouble-makers like "Joey" off of these forums? Unlike the very dubious "infractions" you keep giving me any chance you can, he has actually gotten banned a bunch of times and opened other accounts to bypass sanctions for his real infractions, and there is an actual written rule here that says you are not supposed to do that. Funny, somehow I feel that if I did that you would waste no time whatsoever closing down any of my other accounts.

 

[Drac II]

I shouldn't speak for him, but it's sarcasm. That's the meme about Italians on anthrofora. One of the usual suspects is already hinting it's a done deal for Italy, but then he's on record as saying we're, or at least southern and perhaps central Italians, aren't European and should be kicked out of the "club", so for now it's just wishful thinking. I always wonder why he reserves this for us and never mentions the Spaniards with their North African and SSA and the Balkanites with their West Asian. Perhaps, since he's not actually European, some Italian kid of the diaspora beat him up and took his lunch money, or stole his girlfriend? More likely it's tied to anti-Semitism. Ah well, the workings of unbalanced minds are always a mystery to some extent.

Immaterial to me but it gets under the skin of some Italians. They should know better, in my opinion.

Sorry for the off-topic comment. I apologize.

Maybe what bothers this person you keep disparaging is the unbalanced minds of certain Italian characters around anthro forums who go around posting nonsense about other Europeans instead of concerning themselves with all the North African, SSA and West Asian of Italians. Very ironic, really.

Sorry for the off-topic digression. I apologize.

 

[Sile]

deleted by poster

 

[MOESAN]

I meant that the process started 6-10 ky ago. That's what we see from ancient dna, that first alleles related to these processes show up in European genome at about this time. I hope you agree that it was a slow long process in both cases, which lasted till today, and that it was not a sudden revolution?

I think I've to check the data about the mutated alleles for light pigmentation OF ALL SORTS -
I don't argue about the date of first apparition of mutatons but about their rising to overwhelming majority in relatively few generations (60-80?) WITHOUT EVIDENT NATURAL PRESSURE for light pigmentation. LT is (at first sight) another thing, except could be linked to pigmentation by some process still unkown to me.
maybe I'll have to separate basic exclusive skin mutations from complentary hairs/eyes ones? If natural pressure for pigmentation of hairs and eyes produced always the same results, why other Northern populations (Inuit, Samoyedes and other Siberians...) don't present the same results? The crossings in East-Eurasia/West SIberia were sufficiant to permit to advantageous mutations to rise up if climate and way of life were then only cause...
just my present point. Can change but?

 

[MOESAN]

Concerning the "Brittons" 3DRIF-16 and 3DRIF-3 having if I red well Y-R1b-U106, they are shift a bit towards N-East Europe, supposedly Poland and Lithiania. Eurogenes Davidsky thinks Sweden population could make well the job too. It recall me the U106 of Bronze Scandinavia, centered arond Norway, as opposed to the Y-R1aZ645 shifted towards Volga region.
concerning the 2 "Brittons" the ground iis still open. THat said, Belgae apart, it recalls me other remnants and archeologic traces in East England at Iron time, evocating something Germanic ( they ware taken as Viking remnants at first time). I'll try to find data.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

@LeBrok

Maybe R1b herders brought the LP mutation to Northern Europe, why not?

Yes, could be. I am neutral on where it came from originally.

That's because LP gene is not attached to Y chromosome

Yes, I have a bet with myself that older "Irish" R1b clade samples in Britain and Ireland will have a higher frequency of LP than later continental samples. Just a guess, could be wrong.

 

[Alan]

edited by poster

 

[Alan]

Turns out the Gladiator of Middle Eastern origin belonged to J2b subclade, which is nowadays rare in Arabia and the Levant as far as I know.

 

[LeBrok]

Turns out the Gladiator of Middle Eastern origin belonged to J2b subclade, which is nowadays rare in Arabia and the Levant as far as I know.

He could have been Greek living in Near East or maybe Thracian?

 

[Fire Haired14]

He could have been Greek living in Near East or maybe Thracian?

J2b1 does exist in West Asia. There's 0% chance he was North African, European, Mesoptamian, or Caucasian. He was from the Levant or Arabia.

 

[Tomenable]

Someone even suggested that he was probably born behind "Limes Arabicus", outside of the Roman Empire - that's because he was like modern Palestinians and Jordanians, and it is unlikely that before Early Medieval Arab immigration to the region, people in Palestine and Jordan were already so similar to modern Palestinians and Jordanians - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Arabicus

He could be an ethnic Nabataean (Northern Arab) - they lived just next to the Roman border:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans

The Nabataeans, also Nabateans (/ˌnæbəˈtiːənz/; Arabic: الأنباط‎ al-ʾAnbāṭ , compare to Ancient Greek: Ναβαταίος, Latin: Nabatæus), were an Arabic[1] people who inhabited northern Arabia and the Southern Levant, and whose settlements, most prominently the assumed capital city of Petra,[1] in AD 37 – c. 100, gave the name of Nabatene to the borderland between Arabia and Syria, from the Euphrates to the Red Sea.

They could be like modern Palestinians, who are a mixture of Pre-Arab locals with Arabs (including Southern Arabs?).

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Someone even suggested that he was probably born behind "Limes Arabicus", outside of the Roman Empire - that's because he was like modern Palestinians and Jordanians, and it is unlikely that before Early Medieval Arab immigration to the region, people in Palestine and Jordan were already so similar to modern Palestinians and Jordanians - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Arabicus

He could be an ethnic Nabataean (Northern Arab) - they lived just next to the Roman border:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans



They could be like modern Palestinians, who are a mixture of Pre-Arab locals with Arabs (including Southern Arabs?).

someone on eurogenes mentioned these dudes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassanids

 

[Alan]

He could have been Greek living in Near East or maybe Thracian?

Very unlikely he looks most closely related to Samaritans. Maybe some sort of Samaritan south Levantine possibly close to some sort of "Proto Arab". I still suspect a Ghassanid.

 

[Alan]

Someone even suggested that he was probably born behind "Limes Arabicus", outside of the Roman Empire - that's because he was like modern Palestinians and Jordanians, and it is unlikely that before Early Medieval Arab immigration to the region, people in Palestine and Jordan were already so similar to modern Palestinians and Jordanians - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Arabicus

He could be an ethnic Nabataean (Northern Arab) - they lived just next to the Roman border:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans



They could be like modern Palestinians, who are a mixture of Pre-Arab locals with Arabs (including Southern Arabs?).

He could and was probably simply a Ghassanid. Those lived in Jordan and the Syrian desert of Southeast Syria. It's not like the Roman Empire did not stretch all the way into South Levant.

He was most akine to Samaritans and Saudis. He looks to have some origin in the Sinai Peninsula he most likely represents some sort of "Proto Arab". Therefore Ghassanids fit because they came from the Arabian Peninsula (where the Arab ethnicity probably evolved) and settled in Southern Levant.

 

[Sile]

Turns out the Gladiator of Middle Eastern origin belonged to J2b subclade, which is nowadays rare in Arabia and the Levant as far as I know.

This legionnaire was most likely recruited from the 22nd legion from Galatia Anatolia and his "regiment" was detached from the 22nd and sent to Britain to topup the 9th legion in Britain after the 9th had major losses in the campaigns of 64AD ( in Britain )

these burials are all legionnaire burials
- single burial instead of the typical gladiator mass burial
- buried with legionnaire marching sandals, every uncomfortable to wear unless on the march.
- all decapitated........most likely an execution of every 10th legionnaire due to some form of disgrace for the legion.
- all skeletons are same minimum height and build ............gladiators do not fit any of these

 

[LeBrok]

Very unlikely he looks most closely related to Samaritans. Maybe some sort of Samaritan south Levantine possibly close to some sort of "Proto Arab". I still suspect a Ghassanid.

Yes I see my mistake, I didn't know about his admixtures.