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Thread: The Coming of the Anglo-Saxons to Britain

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    What does it matter at the end of the day? One person with African ancestry of any kind is not significant in terms of the ethnogenesis of the British people. That's why it's not a big whoops.

    As to whether 3% coverage is enough, I'm not sure. I do know that African ancestry is so divergent from that of Europeans that it's usually very obvious.

    Egyptians, Saudis, Levantines, definitely tend to have East African ancestry, not West African. However, Moroccans are a different story. There are Moroccans with up to 60% SSA. Could one of them have made his way to England? Why not? There was still some trade even if nothing like before the fall. In the 10th century Ahmad Ibn Fadlan wound up among the Volga Bulgars and the Vikings. Would I be surprised if he left some offspring? No, I wouldn't. Fun, fictionalized movie about an Arab traveler among Vikings is called The 13th Warrior. :)


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    EAS003 - Female - England_Saxon_o_Africa - 400-1100 CE - England, Kent, Eastry - UK - (GretzingerNature2022)

    Coverage - Genotype-Ratio 63%




  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What does it matter at the end of the day? One person with African ancestry of any kind is not significant in terms of the ethnogenesis of the British people. That's why it's not a big whoops.

    As to whether 3% coverage is enough, I'm not sure. I do know that African ancestry is so divergent from that of Europeans that it's usually very obvious.

    Egyptians, Saudis, Levantines, definitely tend to have East African ancestry, not West African. However, Moroccans are a different story. There are Moroccans with up to 60% SSA. Could one of them have made his way to England? Why not? There was still some trade even if nothing like before the fall. In the 10th century Ahmad Ibn Fadlan wound up among the Volga Bulgars and the Vikings. Would I be surprised if he left some offspring? No, I wouldn't. Fun, fictionalized movie about an Arab traveler among Vikings is called The 13th Warrior. :)
    As I already told you, if the admixture was legit, the sample was most certainly incorrectly dated and not from the Anglo-Saxon era. Anyway, for the Daily Mail and the scholars involved, this one odd sample is enough to draw the conclusion that the Anglo-Saxons were diverse. Besides, pointing out modern Moroccans with 60% SSA admixture makes no sense here. The truth of the matter is that the girl was NOT admixed with North African DNA. She was not 33% Moroccan, her admixture was of West African kind. So, my point stands, it's implausible that West Africans were running around in 7th-century England. And tell me why didn't the scientists detect 33% West African admixed Romans, Greeks, Levantines, Etruscans, or Egyptians, but only among the most unlikely candidate the Anglo-Saxons? The Romans, Greeks, and Etruscans had big times more contact with Moroccans than Anglo-Saxons did. Besides, I'm sure it would be a big surprise or whoops if we got a Roman or Etruscan sample with 33% West African mix. To further illustrate my point, you believed, for instance, that the Roman York woman, actually a Northern African was SSA because you trusted the information. And a Southern European woman from Roman Sussex was mislabeled as "the first know black person" in Britain. Of course, one can brush this constant misinformation aside but to me, it's an issue. Nonetheless, thanks for explaining your take on this.

    “If anyone can refute me—show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after, and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance.” – Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book VI, 21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    EAS003 - Female - England_Saxon_o_Africa - 400-1100 CE - England, Kent, Eastry - UK - (GretzingerNature2022)
    Coverage - Genotype-Ratio 63%

    Thanks
    63% genotype ratio is not that bad
    This might be real
    She was mixed either way
    She carry also european elements
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
    e-fgc7391
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

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    She doesn’t match any modern or ancient populations, she’s mixed. The results show she is mostly of European and Sub-Saharan descent. Her coverage is about 63% meaning the results are believable.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    She doesn’t match any modern or ancient populations, she’s mixed. The results show she is mostly of European and Sub-Saharan descent. Her coverage is about 63% meaning the results are believable.
    Thanks for bringing some clarity to the matter, Salento.

    It's obviously a big conspiracy to find 33% West African in a person in Anglo-Saxon Britain, but NOT in the Italians, Spaniards etc. where it belongs.

    He's definitely going on ignore.

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    … you’re welcome Angela :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for bringing some clarity to the matter, Salento.

    It's obviously a big conspiracy to find 33% West African in a person in Anglo-Saxon Britain, but NOT in the Italians, Spaniards etc. where it belongs.

    He's definitely going on ignore.

    Yes, I don't believe for a second that this girl was from the Anglo-Saxon era, but from a long shot later period. Seriously, I don't get your hostile attitude. You really seem to hate Germans. At any given opportunity, you try to make me look bad or anti-Southern European and whatnot. To make one thing clear, I never said anything negative or disrespectful about Southern Europeans since day 1. Moreover, I never argued that 33% West African admixture belongs in Italians, Spaniards, or for that matter, in the Romans, Iberians, or Greeks. What I rather wanted to make was a point and contextualize the finding. The irony is, that I debunk stupid Americans and Afro- centrists on regularly basis who think that Italians and Spaniards are 25% SSA because of the Moors or that the Etruscans were black.

    It appears that you're conflating me with the Italians from Italic Roots or the Spaniards from The apricity who fight each over who is 50%North African or has more black blood. Leave me out of this. Stupid me, I thought I would have a cool discussion with you, instead you're turning on me.

    Plus, your blind faith in scientists in these days and age, shows that you're not really aware of what's going on behind the scene. You must have blacked out all the crappy and misleading studies to date. Since I don't believe the worst in people, I never accused you to believe in a big conspiracy after you got upset with how Moots makes Sicilians in her study appear to be 50% North African-like.

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    @Angela,

    After reading your comment and my answer again, I realized that I've probably overreacted a bit and took your remarks too personally. The thing is, you come off across as very dismissive of my objection and arguments, as if I was talking out of my head. Besides, you better believe that BLM supporter Manx Planck Institute, the scholars who are mass migration and diversity apologists would be more than thrilled and eager to find SSA admixture in ancient Europeans, in particular in Anglo-Saxons & the Vikings, and the more, the better. If you consider me a conspiracy fruitcake just because I don't have the idealized view of scientists, then you must look at Razib Khan as a conspiracist, too. He says the following: "In the subjects I know most about, I am very skeptical of academics."......... "We know for a fact that academia is highly skewed politically, heavily left-of-center. The difference between academic fields is merely in the degree of the skew." When you read interviews and articles where the authors reveal that the genetic papers have a purpose to fight nationalism and to make people more accepting of immigration and diversity, etc. it makes you question their work.To me, genetic papers should be a source to inform and educate, and not to indoctrinate.

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    [QUOTE=Salento;662312...... Her coverage is about 63% meaning the results are believable.[/QUOTE]


    Could be! But dating her to the Anglo-Saxon time isn't credible. Anglo-Saxons had no historical ties to Yoruba or Easan people, Nigeria.



    Findings reveal 33 per cent of Updown Girl's DNA points to West African ancestry, most closely resembling Esan or Yoruba groups.“

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    She doesn’t match any modern or ancient populations, she’s mixed. The results show she is mostly of European and Sub-Saharan descent. Her coverage is about 63% meaning the results are believable.
    dear salento ,
    i can't find her there is no EAS003 individual here in the bam files link
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...899?show=reads
    where is she in the ena site ?

    p.s
    i do see though EAS001, EAS002,EAS004,EAS005,EAS006
    by the waythis site in kent and is dated to 600-750 Ad

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    dear salento ,
    i can't find her there is no EAS003 individual here in the bam files link
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...899?show=reads
    where is she in the ena site ?

    p.s
    i do see though EAS001, EAS002,EAS004,EAS005,EAS006
    by the waythis site in kent and is dated to 600-750 Ad
    I got EAS003 from ReichLab

    (V54.1: Data release: Nov 16 2022)

    ... EAS003 GretzingerNature2022 Context: Archaeological - Period 1200 202 400-1100 CE .. England_Saxon_oAfrica.SG England, Kent, Eastry United Kingdom ....................

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/allen-...cient-dna-data

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I got EAS003 from ReichLab

    (V54.1: Data release: Nov 16 2022)

    ... EAS003 GretzingerNature2022 Context: Archaeological - Period 1200 202 400-1100 CE .. England_Saxon_oAfrica.SG England, Kent, Eastry United Kingdom ....................

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/allen-...cient-dna-data

    thanks
    i see
    thats cool
    all the other individuals from this site are dated from 600-700 AD
    so it is extremely likely EAS003 is also dated to this period
    very interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks
    i see
    thats cool
    all the other individuals from this site are dated from 600-700 AD
    so it is extremely likely EAS003 is also dated to this period
    very interesting
    Yep, it‘s extremely realistic that a Nigerian man found his way to Anglo-Saxon Britain and became part of the affluent people there. What did a Nigerian man want in cold and rainy Britain that after the Romans left was not exactly a flourishing place or the place to be? I‘m well-informed about African cultures. The Yoruba or Esan culture was an agriculturalist culture, thus a simple culture and not a sophisticated one. These Nigerian tribes were no maritime or seafaring people. Hence they weren't that mobile to go all the way up to Northern Europe. The point is that Yoruba-like DNA that is found in Muslim Arabs/Levantines is mostly from slavery. Arab slavers deported them to the Middle East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Yep, it‘s extremely realistic that a Nigerian man found his way to Anglo-Saxon Britain and became part of the affluent people there. What did a Nigerian man want in cold and rainy Britain that after the Romans left was not exactly a flourishing place or the place to be? I‘m well-informed about African cultures. The Yoruba or Esan culture was an agriculturalist culture, thus a simple culture and not a sophisticated one. These Nigerian tribes were no maritime or seafaring people. Hence they weren't that mobile to go all the way up to Northern Europe. The point is that Yoruba-like DNA that is found in Muslim Arabs/Levantines is mostly from slavery. Arab slavers deported them to the Middle East.
    so what do you think that reich lab is lying ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    so what do you think that reich lab is lying ?
    Well, I believe their dating is incorrect. Remember kinjohn you said scholars can make mistake when it was predicted that BA Greeks were dark to black. Anyway, I answered your inquisitorial-sounding question. So can you please answer my questions too? How realistic or plausible is it, that a West African individual from a tribal people that were not like the Phoenicians, traders, and maritime folks, went to Britain to live there? What trading networks did Anglo-Saxons have with Nigeria? Show me a historical record of Anglo-Saxons trading with SSAs from West Africa? Keep also in mind that the Romans brought the Syrians, North Africans, and other Non-Europeans, etc. with them to Britain. The handful of Africans that were present in Elizabethan England were BROUGHT there as exotic eye-catchers and status symbols in noble courts. Moreover, a discussion about and questioning of the conclusion made by the authors didn't start with me. It's normal that in an archaeogenetic forum you discuss and question DNA studies especially when the finding is totally unexpected. If let's say Baltic DNA was found in a Dynastic Ancient Egyptian sample or in King Tut, etc. we all here including you would start to scratch our heads and question the results and try to make sense of it.

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    Agree there are no historical connection
    Between anglo-saxon england and nigeria
    EAS003 results is indeed surprise
    David reich lab can be wrong small
    Chance but they can

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    I guess that we can all choose to disregard findings we don’t like and to emphasize findings we like.

    I detest bias, even mine.

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    There are some strange similarities between Yoruba religion and Germanic paganism. Their god Shango is basically identical to Thor, and also has similarities to Odin. Another god, Eshu, is the equivalent of Loki. And they also have a Jupiter, called Jakuta. The similarities with Thor in particular are so specific and in some cases bizarre it seems impossible that they aren't related. I thought it might have had something to do with the Vandals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Agree there are no historical connection
    Between anglo-saxon england and nigeria
    EAS003 results is indeed surprise
    David reich lab can be wrong small
    Chance but they can

    kingjoh, remember the Qatari genome study? This paper was shredded into pieces here since it showed that Finns have Jewish and North African ancestry. Even the state of the scientific world was questioned not only by me but by others too. Besides, this Qatari paper was never corrected. But suddenly I lost my mind because I don‘t believe that Anglo-Saxons had an odd 30% Nigerian admixture that historically doesn't make sense and thus is very implausible. If the girl was dated to Elizabatian or Tudor England that would be surprising but plausible because Africans due to their rarity and exoticism were purchased by the nobles of that period in England.

    Here's the thing, if it‘s believable that Nigerians had genetic input on Anglo-Saxons because a study says so then it should be also credible that Finnish folks are North African/Jewish admixed/Europeans have recent Qatari ancestry because a study says so, too.

    Furthermore, please explain to me kingjohn. The Levant is basically next door to Africa and yet all the Ancient samples from there have zero Nigerian ancestry.
    As a rule Copts, Christian Levantines, and Assyrian Christians totally lack this Yoruba component whereas the Muslims have minor Yoruba ancestry because they owned African slaves. Keep in mind, that Ethiopians and Somalis also usually lack this Yoruba/West African component too.

    So, Nigerians avoid the Horn of Africa, Egypt, the Levant, Greece, and Rome only to go straight to Britain to live among the Anglo- Saxons there? Sorry, I don't buy it.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I guess that we can all choose to disregard findings we don’t like and to emphasize findings we like.

    I detest bias, even mine.

    Salento, you missed the point here, honestly. It‘s not about dislike or personal bias but simply following logic and common sense and plausibility. For instance, I didn't believe a genetic study that "proved" that Tutsis and Hutus were basically the same people because it didn't make sense. Back then folks threw DNA/ science doesn't lie at me to shut down my arguments. Anyway, Razib Khan's aDNA results confirmed what was KNOWN by anthropologists and people with common sense that Tutsis and Hutus were two distinct ethnicities. The Tutsis cluster with Masai and to a lesser degree with Cushitic speakers. In fact, the genetic study on Tutsis was flawed and wrong. It feels to me like a deja vu.

    Anyway, historically viewed, Nigerians going to Anglo-Saxon England makes as much sense as an Eskimo migrating to medieval Nigeria. Most SSA in Iberia or Sicily for instance was North African-mediate and not significant. Furthermore, when going by your logic dismissing a genetic paper that shows Finns have recent Jewish and North African admixture, and Europeans recent Qatari ancestry is because of bias and personal dislike and not because of the result being BS. No disrespect intended, but Salento, you appear to have blind trust in scientists. The academic world isn't as perfect and beyond reproach as many here think.

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    @real expert … if they weren't sure, they would have added: _possible at the end of the label, for example:
    Roman_Medieval_ possible:R1291

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    There are some strange similarities between Yoruba religion and Germanic paganism. Their god Shango is basically identical to Thor, and also has similarities to Odin. Another god, Eshu, is the equivalent of Loki. And they also have a Jupiter, called Jakuta. The similarities with Thor in particular are so specific and in some cases bizarre it seems impossible that they aren't related. I thought it might have had something to do with the Vandals.

    The Vandals conquered and ruled Tunisia and not Nigeria. Plus, Tunisians were and are not Yoruba people. In case you don't know, there are specific similarities between the Igbo religion/culture and Judaism. Therefore, Afro-centrists and so-called Black Hebrew Israelites argue that the original Jews/Israelites were black. Here are some historical facts. European colonisation of Africa only really picked up steam in the 1880s, when newer forms of transportation, better medicine, and industrial technology, made penetration of Sub-Saharan Africa possible. Tropical diseases killed off very high numbers of Europeans who visited West or Central Africa. Hence it was difficult for Europeans to colonize interior Africa in modern times for a long time, but you think Germanic folks in ancient or medieval times could just go to Africa and interact with the Yoruba folks as they please. On top of that, the Yoruba didn't build ships to travel over the world, they were farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @real expert … if they weren't sure, they would have added: _possible at the end of the label, for example:
    Roman_Medieval_ possible:R1292
    The authors of the Qatari study were also sure that Finnish folks are part Jewish and North African and Europeans have recent Qatari admixture, their paper past the peer review.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    The authors of the Qatari study were also sure that Finnish folks are part Jewish and North African and Europeans have recent Qatari admixture, their paper past the peer review.
    About EAS003, you could kindly contact the authors of the paper, some of them may answer your questions.

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