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Thread: Y-DNA descendants / relatives of La Braña (C1a2) in modern Europe

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Y-DNA descendants / relatives of La Braña (C1a2) in modern Europe

    Haplogroup C1a appears in ancient DNA from Upper Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic Europe.

    After that it was marginalized but it has not disappeared entirely, some people carrying it can still be found in Europe.

    "C Haplogroup Y-DNA" Project on Family Tree DNA includes the following samples from Europe (broken down by regions):

    C1a2 (as we know from ancient DNA, this is the "Old European" subclade of C) - in total 15 samples:

    C1a2-V20:

    Ireland - 2
    Upper Lusatia (Leipzig) - 1

    C1a2a-V222:

    Scotland - 1
    Ireland - 1
    England - 1
    Calabria - 1
    Subcarpathia (Komarnyky, near Lviv) - 1
    Ithaca Island - 1
    Hungary - 1
    Ulster - 2

    C1a2a2-Z29329:

    Subcarpathia (Stare Miasto, near Rzeszów) - 1
    Valencian Country (Soneja) - 1
    Aragon - 1

    ==============================

    But this Y-DNA Project has also other subclades, which have not yet been found in ancient DNA.

    In particular C2b1a1b looks like it could also be present in Europe for a long time (what do you think?):

    C2b1-F1699:

    Rhineland - 1
    Thuringia - 1
    Upper Spiš (Slovenská Ves) - 1

    C2b1a1b-F3985:

    Vorarlberg - 1
    Českobudějovická Pánev - 1
    Mazovia - 2

    ===========================

    As well as:

    C2e-Z1338 (East Asian?):

    Ireland - 1

    C2b1c-F4002 (Mongolian?):

    Russia (Sudzha, Kursk Oblast) - 1
    Ukraine (Poltava) - 1
    Bukovina (Rădăuţi) - 1

    ===========================

    And samples of C in case of which exact subclade has not yet been tested:

    Cornwall - 1
    Rhineland - 1
    Sicily - 1
    Campania - 1

    ===========================

    Also in: "Y chromosome polymorphisms and haplotypes in South Saxony-Anhalt (Germany)":

    http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0...05)00021-6/pdf

    Authors found 1 sample (frequency 0.43%) of C among 234 Germans from Halle an der Saale.

    This sample is not included in the list of FTDNA samples posted above.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Very Interesting. I2(xDinaric) and G2a are at 1-5% in Europe. C1a was much less popular than those two, probably being at 1-5% at most in any EEF/WHG populations. Most Y DNA that isn't LNBA mega-lineages(R1a/b, I1) are post-4000 BC introductions from West Asia(J, E1b) or I2a1b-Dinaric which is an Iron age mega lineage. This is why EEF/WHG Y DNA is so rare.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What strikes me is that even of these few samples of C1a2 and C2b1a which have been identified in modern Europe, most are carried by people who live in (or whose earliest known paternal ancestors come from) either mountainous, surrounded by mountains (basins / valleys) or water from most sides (islands / peninsulas), as well as otherwise remote regions. I don't think that it is just a coincidence.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    G2a also tends to be most frequent in modern Europe in mountainous refuges and around major mountains.

    Ötzi the Iceman was killed by his perpetrators (whoever they were) while trying to escape across mountains.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    IMO there is no connection whatsoever between C1a2 and C2.
    C2 is Chinese and C2b is Mongolian. I don't expect any anciant DNA C2 will be found in Europe.

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    Surely not all of C2b is Mongolian. For example - C2b1a1a-P39 is Native American (link):

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    There are some European-Amerindian genetic connections as we have learned by now.

    Just to mention, that one of Karelian hunters carried "typically Amerindian" C1g or C1f mtDNA:

    "Yuzhnyi Olenii Ostrov: Ancient mtDNA evidence for Amerindian admixture [back-migration from Alaska?] in Europe?":

    http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudie...ure-in-europe/

    The link above describes that Karelian sample as C1f, but I've seen other sources calling it C1g.

    Of course at the moment we are talking about mtDNA C, not Y-DNA C.

    ===================

    BTW - that link could be due to common origin as well, and not due to any prehistoric back-migration.

    Another example is mtDNA X, which is found both in Western Eurasia and in Native Americans.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    La Brana 1 probably has no particularly close modern paternal relatives. Remember that La Brana 1's Y-DNA was C V20+ V86-. ISOGG lists V20 and V86 as phyloequivalent in modern populations, and yfull lists La Brana 1 as the only known C V20+ V86-. The TMRCA of V86 is ~17,300 YBP, older than La Brana 1 himself, meaning that he doesn't have any known potential decendants.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Surely not all of C2b is Mongolian. For example - C2b1a1a-P39 is Native American (link):

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    There are some European-Amerindian genetic connections as we have learned by now.

    Just to mention, that one of Karelian hunters carried "typically Amerindian" C1g or C1f mtDNA:

    "Yuzhnyi Olenii Ostrov: Ancient mtDNA evidence for Amerindian admixture [back-migration from Alaska?] in Europe?":

    http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudie...ure-in-europe/

    The link above describes that Karelian sample as C1f, but I've seen other sources calling it C1g.

    Of course at the moment we are talking about mtDNA C, not Y-DNA C.

    ===================

    BTW - that link could be due to common origin as well, and not due to any prehistoric back-migration.

    Another example is mtDNA X, which is found both in Western Eurasia and in Native Americans.
    C2 is Chinese, and C2b probably moved north to Manchuria before expanding in eastern Siberia.
    C2b1a1a-P39 is one of its branches.
    Maybe there were also C2b among Xiongnu and Huns.
    But the main branch is Mongolian.

    A,B,C,D,Z are Siberian mtDNA. IMO they brought pottery into the Pontic Steppe and to Narva culture. Their origin is together with Y-DNA haplo N, but wives were swapped with other tribes.
    There is haplo N anciant DNA, but it is younger than some of the mtDNA mentioned. No C2 anciant DNA yet, though it could be possible some of it accompanied the haplo N anciant DNA in small amount.

    Eurasian and Native Americans mtDNA X are not the same subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    La Brana 1 probably has no particularly close modern paternal relatives. Remember that La Brana 1's Y-DNA was C V20+ V86-. ISOGG lists V20 and V86 as phyloequivalent in modern populations, and yfull lists La Brana 1 as the only known C V20+ V86-. The TMRCA of V86 is ~17,300 YBP, older than La Brana 1 himself, meaning that he doesn't have any known potential decendants.
    Indeed, there is mesolithic (La Brana) C1a2 and neolithic C1a2. I think the origin of the neolithic C1a2 is SW Asia.
    It looks like the mesolithic (La Brana) C1a2 is extinct.

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    I think the origin of the neolithic C1a2 is SW Asia.
    But on what basis do you think so ??? Are there any survivors / remnants of C1a2 in SW Asia today ???

    C1a2 was a minority lineage of Mesolithic WHG, while the majority haplogroup among them was I. Considering that I survived Neolithic onslaught, why should we assume that C1a2 did not - especially when the evidence suggests that it did, because we find haplogroup C1 in Europe all the way from Upper Paleolithic (Kostenki 14), through Mesolithic (La Brana), until Middle Neolithic.

    As for the origin of WHG type hunters - I am fairly certain that they ultimately originated from the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge during the LGM (possibly they also lived in Italy during the LGM, but there is no evidence for this so far). This genome-wide signature called WHG emerged during the LGM refuges in Southern Europe as the result of isolation from other groups and endogamy - after the LGM that population migrated north and east, through Switzerland and Luxembourg all the way to Sweden; another group migrated all the way to Western Anatolia - where WHG were undubtedly present before the expansion of First Farmers there from farther east.

    What made me think so, is the fact that CHG genome-wide signature also emerged only during the LGM, from the moment when their ancestors stopped interbreeding on a large scale with other groups - around 25,000 years ago - until the end of the LGM. However, CHG did not emerge in the Caucasus because Georgia was uninhabited during the LGM. They settled Caucasus shortly after the LGM, but their origins were perhaps either in the Northern Iranian LGM Refuge, at the southern coast of the Caspian Sea (soon samples from Huto and Kamarband caves at the Caspian Sea will tell us), or in the Crimean LGM Refuge, which is also very probable:

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/15...comms9912.html

    http://m.phys.org/news/2015-11-fourt...gatherers.html

    The Caucasus hunter-gatherer genome showed a continued mixture with the ancestors of the early farmers in the Levant area, which Manica says makes sense given the relative proximity. This ends, however, around 25,000 years ago - just before the time of the last glacial maximum, or peak Ice Age.

    At this point, Caucasus hunter-gatherer populations shrink as the genes homogenise, a sign of breeding between those with increasingly similar DNA. This doesn't change for thousands of years as these populations remain in apparent isolation in the shelter of the mountains - possibly cut off from other major ancestral populations for as long as 15,000 years - until migrations began again as the Glacial Maximum recedes
    EHG also emerged in some LGM Refuge, but I have no idea in which (though Crimean or North Iranian also come to mind).

    SHG in Sweden on the other hand were not one of those "LGM races" (so to speak), but emerged after the LGM from mixing of two groups. They plot in PCA charts between WHG and EHG, but closer to WHG. They emerged during the 9th - 8th millennia BC when EHG type hunters migrated from Russia to Scandinavia, encountering WHG who had already arrived there before, and mixing with them:

    "The First Eastern Migrations of People and Knowledge into Scandinavia: Evidence from Studies of Mesolithic Technology, 9th-8th Millennium BC":

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...0#.Vo952leTngA

    In this paper a team of Scandinavian researchers identifies and describes a Mesolithic technological concept, referred to as ‘the conical core pressure blade’ concept, and investigates how this concept spread into Fennoscandia and across Scandinavia. Using lithic technological, contextual archaeological and radiocarbon analyses, it is demonstrated that this blade concept arrived with ‘post-Swiderian’ hunter-gatherer groups from the Russian plain into northern Fennoscandia and the eastern Baltic during the 9th millennium BC. From there it was spread by migrating people and/or as transmitted knowledge through culture contacts into interior central Sweden, Norway and down along the Norwegian coast. However it was also spread into southern Scandinavia, where it was formerly identified as the Maglemosian technogroup 3 (or the ‘Sværdborg phase’). In this paper it is argued that the identification and spread of the conical core pressure blade concept represents the first migration of people, technologyand ideas into Scandinavia from the south-eastern Baltic region and the Russian plain.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    All of these clear-cut Mesolithic autosomal groups such as WHG, EHG, CHG, SHG most certainly did not exist before the LGM. They emerged as a result of decimation, fragmentation, isolation and endogamy of human groups caused by advancing ice and cooling climate.

    As for the evolution of light skin - assuming that mutations causing light skin (two major ones have been identified as we know) emerged in a male individual (or in two different male individuals), then I suppose that they (or at least one of them - the one more common among ENF farmers) emerged in a person carrying Y-DNA haplogroup J - and that it was before the LGM.

    During the LGM - as the result of random genetic drift and selection - some groups became light-skinned, while others (such as WHG from the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge) remained dark-skinned. After the LGM ended, light-skinned and likewise dark-skinned ones started to migrate and mix. One of relatively lighter-skinned groups invented agriculture, while another one - even lighter - did not (EHG).

    So what appears to be a causation (e.g. farming = light skin) is in fact merely a correlation without causation.

    By the way - considering that WHG hunters with I haplogroup were essentially dark-skinned (with the exception of SHG, who were - however - admixed by EHG as explained in my post above; and they probably acquired those mutations with EHG admixture), I suppose that light skin mutations did not emerge before the split of IJ into I and J.

    And why do I think that a prehistoric male with haplogroup J is a good candidate for being the first "mutant" with light skin (assuming that the first "mutant" was a male) ??? Because - when it comes to Y-DNA - J is the only connection between EHG and Anatolian ENF.

    Haplogroup J was found in Mesolithic Karelia, in 1 out of 3 male EHG hunters.

    Haplogroup J2a was also foudn in 1 out of 16 male Anatolian ENF farmers.

    ==============================

    However - more likely some mtDNA haplogroup correlates better with the spread of light skin, than any Y-DNA.

    That's because 1) light skin could first emerge in a female "mutant" and 2) males also carry mtDNA.

    But I was (so far) being too lazy to check which mtDNA haplogroups are shared in common by all those early light-pigmented groups.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But on what basis do you think so ??? Are there any survivors / remnants of C1a2 in SW Asia today ???
    As I mentioned, that is my opinion for 2 reasons :

    Like Sparkey said : La Brana 1 probably has no particularly close modern paternal relatives. Remember that La Brana 1's Y-DNA was C V20+ V86-. ISOGG lists V20 and V86 as phyloequivalent in modern populations, and yfull lists La Brana 1 as the only known C V20+ V86-. The TMRCA of V86 is ~17,300 YBP, older than La Brana 1 himself, meaning that he doesn't have any known potential decendants.

    And there is anciant C1a2 in Neolithic Anatolia and in LBK and late ALP. But apart from La Brana there is no C V20+ V86- afaik.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    What made me think so, is the fact that CHG genome-wide signature also emerged only during the LGM, from the moment when their ancestors stopped interbreeding on a large scale with other groups - around 25,000 years ago - until the end of the LGM. However, CHG did not emerge in the Caucasus because Georgia was uninhabited during the LGM. They settled Caucasus shortly after the LGM, but their origins were perhaps either in the Northern Iranian LGM Refuge, at the southern coast of the Caspian Sea (soon samples from Huto and Kamarband caves at the Caspian Sea will tell us), or in the Crimean LGM Refuge, which is also very probable:

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/15...comms9912.html

    http://m.phys.org/news/2015-11-fourt...gatherers.html
    Georgia Satsurblia cave M 13,132–13,380 cal. BP J1(b) Low coverage. L255+, CTS426/PF4641/YSC307+, CTS10759+, CTS11188/PF4784+, CTS11636/PF4785+, CTS6101/PF3543+, F4306+, FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624+, FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620+, CTS3219/ZS80-. So has some, but not all of the SNPs for J1b. K3 Jones 2015; additional info on Y-SNA SNPs from Chris Rоttеnѕtеіnеr
    Georgia Kotias Klde M 9,529–9,895 cal. BP J2a M410> PF4610> Z6049> SK1321(xSK1314), Y12630+, Y12628+, SK1314/Y12595-, Y12624-, CTS3089- H13c Jones 2015; additional information on SNPs fromChris Rоttеnѕtеіnеr

    the Satsurblia was epi-Gravettian which suggests the Crimea refuge
    the Kotias Klde was related to the Satsurblia which suggests continuity in Georgia for that period (13.3 - 9.6 ka)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    EHG also emerged in some LGM Refuge, but I have no idea in which (though Crimean or North Iranian also come to mind).

    SHG in Sweden on the other hand were not one of those "LGM races" (so to speak), but emerged after the LGM from mixing of two groups. They plot in PCA charts between WHG and EHG, but closer to WHG. They emerged during the 9th - 8th millennia BC when EHG type hunters migrated from Russia to Scandinavia, encountering WHG who had already arrived there before, and mixing with them:

    "The First Eastern Migrations of People and Knowledge into Scandinavia: Evidence from Studies of Mesolithic Technology, 9th-8th Millennium BC":

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...0#.Vo952leTngA
    IMO Swiderian were coming from Franco-Iberian refuge, so haplogroup I but after youngest dryas they were replaced by R1 who had crossed the Caucasus or came along the western shore of the Caspian Sea and spread along the rivers of eastern Europe. Als some eastern epigravettian J joined them.

    Russia Sok River, Samara [I0124/SVP 44] M 5650-5555 BC R1b1a M343+, L278+, [P297 equivalent PF6513+], M478-, [M478 equivalent Y13872+, Y13866- (The presence of positive and negative markers in the M478 node can reflect an intermediate stage of its formation.)], M478-, M269- U5a1d Haak 2015;Sergey Malyshev; Mathieson 2015
    Russia Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [I0061/UzOO 74] M 5500-5000 BC R1a1* M459+, Page65.2+, M515-, M198-, M512-, M514-, L449- C1g Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013; Der Sarkissian 2014; Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015
    Russia Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [I0211/UzOO 40] M 5500-5000 BC J PF4521, F2114, CTS5934, CTS7028, CTS7229, FGC1599, YSC0000228, CTS11291 U4a Mathieson 2015
    Russia Serteya (Smolenskaya oblast) VIII [А3] M 4000 BC R1a1
    ? Chekunova 2014


    Furthermore there was some more ANE admixture.
    That was through intermarriage with women from Siberia. That is how cooking pottery arrived in the Pontic Steppe and into Kunda culture.

    Remember Samara eneolithic (Khvalynsk) allready had some CHG admixture.
    The mystery is how Yamnaya got that extra amount of CHG admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    As for the evolution of light skin - assuming that mutations causing light skin (two major ones have been identified as we know) emerged in a male individual (or in two different male individuals), then I suppose that they (or at least one of them - the one more common among ENF farmers) emerged in a person carrying Y-DNA haplogroup J - and that it was before the LGM.

    During the LGM - as the result of random genetic drift and selection - some groups became light-skinned, while others (such as WHG from the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge) remained dark-skinned. After the LGM ended, light-skinned and likewise dark-skinned ones started to migrate and mix. One of relatively lighter-skinned groups invented agriculture, while another one - even lighter - did not (EHG).

    So what appears to be a causation (e.g. farming = light skin) is in fact merely a correlation without causation.
    I can imagine living in caves during LGM may alter skin.
    But also change from HG to neolithic diet may.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But I was (so far) being too lazy to check which mtDNA haplogroups are shared in common by all those early light-pigmented groups.
    It's a lot of work.

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    And there is anciant C1a2 in Neolithic Anatolia
    There is also I2c and 10%-15% WHG admixture there. So this is all consistent with WHG presence in Anatolia.

    WHG expanded into Anatolia from Western Europe. Bosphorus was not an obstacle hard enough to stop them.

    C1a2 came to Anatolia from the west with WHG hunters, and was absorbed by Early Farmers coming from farther east.

    There is no doubt on this considering that already ENF in Anatolia were just 85-90% Near Eastern and 15-10% WHG.

    In other words - Y-DNA related to La Brana 1 migrated from Europe to West Anatolia, and then back-migrated to Europe.

    Like Sparkey said : La Brana 1 probably has no particularly close modern paternal relatives.
    Most of WHG males with I2 also do not have any particularly close modern paternal relatives. But some do.

    It is not a proof that all of C1a2 from WHG died out, because La Brana 1 was not the only WHG with C1a2.

    But also change from HG to neolithic diet may.
    The problem is that Russian and Swedish HG were also light (Russian HG more so than ENF), despite no neolithic diet.

    Another problem is that estimated time of emergence of mutations for light skin seems to be older than farming:

    http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early...7.figures-only

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Frost
    I agree that Europeans became light-skinned relatively late in time. Beleza et al. (2013) estimate that the derived alleles at SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 originated between 19,000 and 11,000 years ago. Canfield et al. (2014) suggest a time range of 19,200 to 7,600 years ago for the derived allele at SLC24A5. These are estimates, and the exact dates will remain unknown until we can retrieve ancient DNA from the late Upper Paleolithic / early Holocene. Most likely this change took place during the second half of the last ice age.

    I disagree with the conclusion that these derived alleles originated among early European farmers. Yes, these alleles are absent from late hunter-gatherers in Spain, Luxembourg, and Hungary, but they are present in late hunter-gatherers from Sweden (Motala), Karelia, and Russia (Samara)
    (see discussion at: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive...p/t-30957.html)

    The authors acknowledge this point towards the end of their text:

    "We find a surprise in six Scandinavian hunter-gatherers (SHG) from the Motala site in southern Sweden. […] A second surprise is that, unlike closely related western hunter-gatherers, the Motala samples have predominantly derived pigmentation alleles at SLC45A2 and SLC24A5."

    This seems to undermine the argument that light European skin originated in Neolithic farmers from Anatolia, and then spread into Europe through migration. Such an argument fails to account for the presence of the same alleles in northern and eastern Europeans at the same time, if not earlier. Again, we won’t be able to resolve this problem until we can retrieve earlier ancient DNA, particularly from the hunter-gatherers of northern and eastern Europe.

    References

    Beleza, S., Murias dos Santos, A., McEvoy, B., Alves, I., Martinho, C., Cameron, E., Shriver, M.D., Parra E.J., & Rocha, J. (2013). The timing of pigmentation lightening in Europeans. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 30, 24-35.

    Canfield, V.A., Berg, A., Peckins, S., Wentzel, S.M., Ang, K.C., Oppenheimer, S., & Cheng, K.C. (2014). Molecular phylogeography of a human autosomal skin color locus under natural selection, G3, 3, 2059-2067.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    There is also I2c and 10%-15% WHG admixture there. So this is all consistent with WHG presence in Anatolia.

    WHG expanded into Anatolia from Western Europe. Bosphorus was not an obstacle hard enough to stop them.

    C1a2 came to Anatolia from the west with WHG hunters, and was absorbed by Early Farmers coming from farther east.

    There is no doubt on this considering that already ENF in Anatolia were just 85-90% Near Eastern and 15-10% WHG.
    Black Sea was a lake most of the time, smaller than today's Black Sea and Bosphorus was mostly dry during Ice Age. The only time it was full when Glaciers melted quickly at the end of Ice Age. I'm sure WHG traveled easily from Balkans to Anatolia and vice versa.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Tomenable this was the conclusion on the the thread bellow too, relict area's in the mountains or surrounded by water. But my doubt lays in the opinion that we now consider remote could be in earlier days be advanced. Waterways were the 'high ways' of earlier times, so in advantage of areas surrounded by water? But it's stays striking that obviously Neolithic lines are more preserved in such areas....

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...western-Europe

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    @Tomenable this was the conclusion on the the thread bellow too, relict area's in the mountains or surrounded by water. But my doubt lays in the opinion that we now consider remote could be in earlier days be advanced. Waterways were the 'high ways' of earlier times, so in advantage of areas surrounded by water? But it's stays striking that obviously Neolithic lines are more preserved in such areas....

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...western-Europe
    Have you seen the film "Southern Comfort?" It's not so much that geographical barriers are physical barriers in themselves it's because they help defenders.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    C1a2a2-Z29329:

    Subcarpathia (Stare Miasto, near Rzeszów) - 1
    Valencian Country (Soneja) - 1
    Aragon - 1

    Kit nº // Ancestor // Birth date // Location // Haplogroup
    170937 // Miguel Rivas Chivas // before 1800 // Soneixa, Alt Palància, Castellón // C1a2

    None here noted that Soneixa is found in "Alt Palància" where previously have been found mtDNA haplogroup D in the Malpaso Cave.

    Sample // Arch. site // Period // mtDNA Haplogroup
    1MP1 // Malpaso cave (Castellnou, Alt, Palància, Castellón) // Chalcolithic
    5500-3200 ybp // D*

    Haplogroup D* is descended from M*. mtDNA M* is found in Upper Paleolithic Europe together Y-DNA C1a2.

    I don't think this is simply coincidence. Alt Palancia could be populated by C1a2 / D descendants since Paleolithic period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The problem is that Russian and Swedish HG were also light (Russian HG more so than ENF), despite no neolithic diet.
    The gradual lightening would have happened with HG as well, only the need for lighter skin is not as high. San are the lightest SS-African, and Tasmanian Aboriginals were reputed to be lighter. So the coming of the neolithic simply brought the necessity for lighter skin south.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Another problem is that estimated time of emergence of mutations for light skin seems to be older than farming:

    http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early...7.figures-only
    But is the time of the selection for these mutations older than farming?

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    The gradual lightening would have happened with HG as well, only the need for lighter skin is not as high. San are the lightest SS-African, and Tasmanian Aboriginals were reputed to be lighter. So the coming of the neolithic simply brought the necessity for lighter skin south.
    Exactly, and we can see skin lightening gradience in American HGs from equator to Inuit in north.

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    The C1a2 people in the paleolitic likely carried more useful neaderthal DNA and probably just more Neaderthal dna in general because they had lived during in the ice age ones c1a2 without helpful neaderthal genes would have died out Neaderthals were better adapted for high altiude and cold because of the shorter and muscular stature C1a2 still barely survived the The ice age plus migrants that had came in way larger numbers with much better technology

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    I have a theory for this it seems that the G2a were mostly crop farmers and did not have cattle Otzi the iceman was lactose intolerant and had no traces of dairy products. so G2a built their farms under mountains where freshwaters would come down from the mountains to help the crops grow but when winter came or if their crops were not doing well they may have gone up into the mountains to hunt in search of food because they did not have cattle that could support them year round like other Neolithic farmers in Europe when Otzi died it he was wearing lots cloths and had frostbite on his toe which suggest it may have been winter. Basically it seems like they used hunting in the mountains as a backbone when there were no crops to feed on

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