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Thread: World's oldest founder effect in Nubia!?

  1. #1
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    World's oldest founder effect in Nubia!?

    Please contribute! The oldest founder effect in the world in Nubia (Ta Seti/Kush)?!?
    Ta Seti Archer.jpg
    Wim Penninx and I (L eon Boer) both from the Netherlands are researching with full gnome data of the so called haplotype E-V22. Wim does the technical/statistic side of Y-DNA and I’am the historian. I also carry the E-V22 gene. We both moderate a page on the yfull.com site about E-V22.
    Please participate!

    We ask you to contribute tot he following thesis. Any input is welcome!
    If you have expertise in ancient history or in DNA matters (or better both ;)
    Please draw a line! And/or make contact with us.

    The thesis:
    The founder effect of E-V22 is to be placed in ancient Nubia (Ta Seti/Kush).

    Oldest founder effect in the world?
    We are convinced that we ‘ve made a mayor break through in our research regarding E-V22. On basis of the E-V22 data within the Y-full group E-V22 we can detect a very clear founder effect. The formation of E-V22 was 8500 years ago. Within a relative short time, a few hundreds of years there where 7 mutations, subbranches, within the E-V22 markers (Y2530_2 and PH2818). This is probably one of the earliest known founder effects in the world. We only recently found this out.
    See also this y-tree form y-full:
    http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V22/

    E-V22 Y-DNA of the Ta Seti !?
    Although it’s not easy to pinpoint, but Ta Seti (Kush/Nubia) has the very best cards to be the place of origin of the E-V22 Y-DNA. Further research could mean a mayor break through!
    A short review why Nubia has the best cards fort he E-V22 founder effect:
    Y-Dna review which leads too Ta Seti/Kush/Nubia….
    - In the haplogroup tree haplogroup E-M78, originated about 14.000 years ago (y-full), is the forefather of E-V22. In 2007 Prof. Cruciani stated that the origins of E-M78 was the Western Desert (Egypt/Libya). Recently this is confirmed by prof. Trombetta e.a. (2015) they claimed: "a northern African location is favoured for the node defining the M78 sub-clade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007).” Up until now no scientist proved otherwise.
    - Battaglia e.a (2009) wrote: ‘A recent archaeological study reveals that during a desiccation period in North Africa, while the eastern Sahara was depopulated, a refugium existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC (radiocarbon-calibrated date). The rapid arrival of wet conditions during this Early Holocene period provided an impetus for population movement into habitat that was quickly settled afterwards';
    - Changing weather conditions about 8500 years ago corresponds with the Neolithization of Egypt at that time: ‘In the Nile Valley, the Saharian met and mixed with the descendants of the South Western Asian Neolithic population responsible for the introduction of the Southwest Asian agricultural tradition into the Nile Valley....’ (Peter Bellwood 2005);
    - Allison Smith (2009) ‘ The prime Northeast African haplogroup E candidate related to the arrival of farmers and/or pastoralists from the Levant is undated E-M34. E-V12(xV32) and E-V22 may well represent local adaptation.’
    - E-V22 is with 22% of the population in Bahariya (Western Desert) the highest of whole Egypt (Delta is about 14%).
    - According to a survey of Josef Levi (2010) about Nubia/Kush “Its earliest development started in the Western Sahara around Nabta Playa...."
    - Nowadays people in the North-eastern Africa like the Beja, 30% E-V22, consider themselves as heirs of the ‘Ta Seti ‘ bow archers. The Saho, 88% E-V22, place themselves in centre of the old Kushite tradition.

    Resume
    So we think that because of the timing: 8500 kya climate change, people (with E-M78) settling along the Nile, forms of agriculture and at the same time one of the oldest Nubian Civilizations called Ta Seti comes on the scene.
    And because nowadays we find E-V22 especially along the tribes who consider themselves as heirs of the Kushite traditions.
    All that looks no coincidence to us! So we assumes that worlds most oldest founder effect (of E-V22) is to be placed in Nubia (Ta Seti/Kush)

    Contribution?
    Although we ‘ve collected most available open data, our resources and research(time) is limited of course. So we are searching for cooperation to set this research a step further. Are you able and willing to do so? So feel free to comment. Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Nicely done Leon. It makes sense on many levels. Timing makes perfect sense too. Expansion of hunter gatherer community during wet Sahara period. I'm assuming there was no farming yet in Kush in 8.5 ky BC.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Sounds plausible to me.

    Wetlands are supposed to be very good for HGs so it wouldn't surprise me at all if lakes were at the root of a lot of this story.

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    World's oldest founder effect in Nubia!?

    Hey Northener, do you still maintain the site? I tried to send email but it can't be delivered. Hi from a V22 from Sicily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Please contribute! The oldest founder effect in the world in Nubia (Ta Seti/Kush)?!?
    Ta Seti Archer.jpg
    Wim Penninx and I (L eon Boer) both from the Netherlands are researching with full gnome data of the so called haplotype E-V22. Wim does the technical/statistic side of Y-DNA and I’am the historian. I also carry the E-V22 gene. We both moderate a page on the site about E-V22.
    Please participate!

    We ask you to contribute tot he following thesis. Any input is welcome!
    If you have expertise in ancient history or in DNA matters (or better both ;)
    Please draw a line! And/or make contact with us.

    The thesis:
    The founder effect of E-V22 is to be placed in ancient Nubia (Ta Seti/Kush).

    Oldest founder effect in the world?
    We are convinced that we ‘ve made a mayor break through in our research regarding E-V22. On basis of the E-V22 data within the Y-full group E-V22 we can detect a very clear founder effect. The formation of E-V22 was 8500 years ago. Within a relative short time, a few hundreds of years there where 7 mutations, subbranches, within the E-V22 markers (Y2530_2 and PH2818). This is probably one of the earliest known founder effects in the world. We only recently found this out.
    See also this y-tree form y-full:


    E-V22 Y-DNA of the Ta Seti !?
    Although it’s not easy to pinpoint, but Ta Seti (Kush/Nubia) has the very best cards to be the place of origin of the E-V22 Y-DNA. Further research could mean a mayor break through!
    A short review why Nubia has the best cards fort he E-V22 founder effect:
    Y-Dna review which leads too Ta Seti/Kush/Nubia….
    - In the haplogroup tree haplogroup E-M78, originated about 14.000 years ago (y-full), is the forefather of E-V22. In 2007 Prof. Cruciani stated that the origins of E-M78 was the Western Desert (Egypt/Libya). Recently this is confirmed by prof. Trombetta e.a. (2015) they claimed: "a northern African location is favoured for the node defining the M78 sub-clade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007).” Up until now no scientist proved otherwise.
    - Battaglia e.a (2009) wrote: ‘A recent archaeological study reveals that during a desiccation period in North Africa, while the eastern Sahara was depopulated, a refugium existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC (radiocarbon-calibrated date). The rapid arrival of wet conditions during this Early Holocene period provided an impetus for population movement into habitat that was quickly settled afterwards';
    - Changing weather conditions about 8500 years ago corresponds with the Neolithization of Egypt at that time: ‘In the Nile Valley, the Saharian met and mixed with the descendants of the South Western Asian Neolithic population responsible for the introduction of the Southwest Asian agricultural tradition into the Nile Valley....’ (Peter Bellwood 2005);
    - Allison Smith (2009) ‘ The prime Northeast African haplogroup E candidate related to the arrival of farmers and/or pastoralists from the Levant is undated E-M34. E-V12(xV32) and E-V22 may well represent local adaptation.’
    - E-V22 is with 22% of the population in Bahariya (Western Desert) the highest of whole Egypt (Delta is about 14%).
    - According to a survey of Josef Levi (2010) about Nubia/Kush “Its earliest development started in the Western Sahara around Nabta Playa...."
    - Nowadays people in the North-eastern Africa like the Beja, 30% E-V22, consider themselves as heirs of the ‘Ta Seti ‘ bow archers. The Saho, 88% E-V22, place themselves in centre of the old Kushite tradition.

    Resume
    So we think that because of the timing: 8500 kya climate change, people (with E-M78) settling along the Nile, forms of agriculture and at the same time one of the oldest Nubian Civilizations called Ta Seti comes on the scene.
    And because nowadays we find E-V22 especially along the tribes who consider themselves as heirs of the Kushite traditions.
    All that looks no coincidence to us! So we assumes that worlds most oldest founder effect (of E-V22) is to be placed in Nubia (Ta Seti/Kush)

    Contribution?
    Although we ‘ve collected most available open data, our resources and research(time) is limited of course. So we are searching for cooperation to set this research a step further. Are you able and willing to do so? So feel free to comment. Thanks in advance!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by donriccardo View Post
    Hey Northener, do you still maintain the site? I tried to send email but it can't be delivered. Hi from a V22 from Sicily.
    Only passive! you can drop a line in PM....

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by donriccardo View Post
    Hey Northener, do you still maintain the site? I tried to send email but it can't be delivered. Hi from a V22 from Sicily.
    I have responded your PM!!! Did you get it?

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