Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Beginner Question about M423

  1. #1
    Junior Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    08-02-16
    Posts
    5
    Points
    870
    Level
    7
    Points: 870, Level: 7
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 80
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Germany - Nordrhein-Westfalen



    Beginner Question about M423

    Hello,

    I received my results for the basic 23andme test and have two questions.

    The last Y-DNA mutation I can see is M423 which is a marker for the Group I2a1b.
    Does it mean that this is really the last muattion of my Y-DNA type or can I check my raw data to go deeper?

    I found out that there are three further possible branches beign L161.1, L162 and L41.2 and am curious if I belong to one of these.

    My other markers are:
    I2a defining mutations - P37.2
    I2 defining mutations - M438
    I defining mutations - U179, M258

    Can this information be used for an estimation of a more detailed Y-DNA analysis?

    P37.2 is more common for north east Germany but M423 is marker most common in todays Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia. So how does this fit?
    After all its all based on probablities and we build our assumptions on very little archeological data, I understand this, but non the less I have great fun with thinking about my quite distant genetic ancestors and imagine where they lived. The last 3 generations of my relatives are from todays Poland and Lithuania.

    Any comments would be welcome as I am very new to this.

  2. #2
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    71,186
    Level
    82
    Points: 71,186, Level: 82
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 264
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    I'm not a 23andMe expert, but in my experience they don't go very deep down the Y-DNA tree, so I'd be surprised if there was a more specific SNP than M423 hiding in your raw data. You can try this sort of technique if you want to be certain: http://blog.kittycooper.com/2014/04/...-dna-analysis/

    If your test does indeed terminate at M423, that's unfortunate, because its two subclades have very different patterns and would imply different things about your lineage. At least, there's always FTDNA (for some $$$).

  3. #3
    Junior Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    08-02-16
    Posts
    5
    Points
    870
    Level
    7
    Points: 870, Level: 7
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 80
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Germany - Nordrhein-Westfalen



    Thank you. I was able to make the ISOGG scan but it didn't reveal much more information.


    Interestingly P37.2 couldn't be found, instead PF4004 was positive.

    I2a1b with M423 ist still valid.
    As for further subclades only one can be ruled out but no further positive hits.

    I2a1b1 L161.1/S185


    Does this mean that the raw data is incomplete or is it possible that the Y-DNA last mutation is just I2a1b?
    Because if S185 is ruled out so there must be data at least for this marker which goes deeper than I2a1b.

  4. #4
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    71,186
    Level
    82
    Points: 71,186, Level: 82
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 264
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Interesting! Knowing that you're L161.1- actually cuts your possibilities in half, eliminating the subclade nicknamed I2a "Isles." Last I checked, the only known I2 M423+ L161.1- carriers were those who also carried L621, which means that you're in either the (huge, younger, typically Slavic) I2a "Din" group or the (tiny, older, typically British) I2a "Disles" group.

  5. #5
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    71,186
    Level
    82
    Points: 71,186, Level: 82
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 264
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth Rider View Post
    Does this mean that the raw data is incomplete or is it possible that the Y-DNA last mutation is just I2a1b?
    Incomplete. 23andMe doesn't test the whole tree.

  6. #6
    Junior Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    08-02-16
    Posts
    5
    Points
    870
    Level
    7
    Points: 870, Level: 7
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 80
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Germany - Nordrhein-Westfalen



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Incomplete. 23andMe doesn't test the whole tree.
    This is quite unfortunate. Even more so as 23andme presents the results in a very simplified graphic so most people take what they see as their accurate result. This could be troublesome for those who are checking their relations to their siblings or parents.

    The advice you gave me was very good. Yesterday I found out by accident that not all markers are read properly and displayed in the ISOGG list and that I have R1 markers which 23andme didn’t mention at all.

    I’m positive for R-P285 and R1a1- PF6234

    Which is quite a game changer for me as I am very interested in ancient history and I did this test because I want to check if I can learn something about the ancient people my most recent Haplogroup belongs to.

    So assuming that R1 is younger in Europe than I2a1b, my last Y mutation is R1a1. That’s not enough to attempt a match to an ancient civilization but it’s a start. It could be anything from e.g. north Yamna Culture, Corded Ware to maybe even Thracians.

    One question, am I correct – I have so far 30 positive markers for F, 9 for IJ and 16 for I and just 2 for R1, so I assume that my paternal line came to Europe from southern Asian (F) over the near east and Anatolia (IJ), entered the Balkans as hunter gatherers (i) and spread a bit further to the north east where they mixed with R1 groups.
    It’s very simplified and not really based on science but could this be a possible scenario?

  7. #7
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    71,186
    Level
    82
    Points: 71,186, Level: 82
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 264
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think you're reading too much into having a couple of Haplogroup R SNPs. It's not possible to be both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup R at the same time. You definitely seem to be Haplogroup I. If you carry some SNP more typical of an R carrier, it's more likely due to that SNP arising naturally at multiple places in the human haplotree (probably because it's unstable, i.e., it tends to mutate frequently) than it is that you somehow got Haplogroup R spliced into your Y chromosome.

  8. #8
    Junior Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    08-02-16
    Posts
    5
    Points
    870
    Level
    7
    Points: 870, Level: 7
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 80
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Germany - Nordrhein-Westfalen



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I think you're reading too much into having a couple of Haplogroup R SNPs. It's not possible to be both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup R at the same time. You definitely seem to be Haplogroup I. If you carry some SNP more typical of an R carrier, it's more likely due to that SNP arising naturally at multiple places in the human haplotree (probably because it's unstable, i.e., it tends to mutate frequently) than it is that you somehow got Haplogroup R spliced into your Y chromosome.
    Yes you are right, I expected this to work out differently. I spent several hours today to check every positive and negative marker in the source list and learnt a bit more about DANN genealogy and archeogenetics.

    I guess there are far more things to discover but unfortunately it’s not in the raw data I got from 23andme.

    Would you suggest that if I want a better result I need to go to a different company like FTDNA and buy a more expensive package or is there a way to use the results I already got to narrow the further testing somehow so it won't cost a lot?

    (I have a question about R1 markers but I will post this in the R group forum)

  9. #9
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    71,186
    Level
    82
    Points: 71,186, Level: 82
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 264
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth Rider View Post
    Would you suggest that if I want a better result I need to go to a different company like FTDNA and buy a more expensive package or is there a way to use the results I already got to narrow the further testing somehow so it won't cost a lot?
    I think you've squeezed what you can out of 23andMe's Y-DNA test, which is an inexpensive option that also gives you tons of insight into autosomal DNA. In fact, I'd call 23andMe primarily an autosomal test that also tells you a bit about your Y-DNA and mtDNA as a plus. If you want a Y-DNA specialty test, FTDNA is the obvious next step. 37 STRs is probably enough for an I2 carrier (R1 carriers tend to need more)--right now that is $169, and sometimes you can catch a sale. Knowing the STRs may narrow it down enough that you don't even need another SNP test, and if you do end up needing a specific SNP test, those aren't very expensive and FTDNA Project admins can tell you which one to get.

    Also, I haven't used it, but FTDNA seems to offer a free transfer service so you don't have to redo autosomal testing: https://www.familytreedna.com/AutosomalTransfer

  10. #10
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    23-03-15
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    332
    Points
    6,281
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,281, Level: 23
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 269
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-M222 (NW Irish)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1bi

    Ethnic group
    Scots Appalachian ("Hillbilly")
    Country: USA - Virginia



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I think you're reading too much into having a couple of Haplogroup R SNPs. It's not possible to be both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup R at the same time. You definitely seem to be Haplogroup I. If you carry some SNP more typical of an R carrier, it's more likely due to that SNP arising naturally at multiple places in the human haplotree (probably because it's unstable, i.e., it tends to mutate frequently) than it is that you somehow got Haplogroup R spliced into your Y chromosome.
    Good point. While it is theoretically possible, in a broad sense of possible, to have a hybrid I-R y-chromosome, it is very unlikely. In the rare event that you do have a spliced I-R, that would be notable and a subject of interesting research!

    I agree with Sparkey. Unless there is more evidence, I would say that you just have some interesting downstream mutations that mimic some of the changes found in certain R clades.

  11. #11
    Wanderer Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    singingfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-03-15
    Posts
    32
    Points
    3,740
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,740, Level: 17
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 110
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b2a1a2*- I-A7358
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1b

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: United States



    Mammoth Rider - This is a less expensive way to find out where you are located down stream from M423.
    YSEQ has updated their I2a M423 panel to include many new SNPs including A7358. Info here: http://www.singingfalls.com/dna.html#ydna Scroll down to updates.
    Here is an image of the new panel tree: http://www.singingfalls.com/images/d...M423_panel.jpg

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •