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Thread: I2a1b2a1 (I-CTS10228) - a strong marker of Slavic expansion

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    check out I-A11372 subcluster at I2 fdna project or i2aproject blog, you'll be surprised... It has more to do with religion rather than ethnicity though i think
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingslav View Post
    There no exists Jewish subcluster I-CTS10228, nice try. You can try prove me wrong but your research will lead to dead end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ba97200 View Post
    check out I-A11372 subcluster at I2 fdna project or i2aproject blog, you'll be surprised... It has more to do with religion rather than ethnicity though i think
    Only one sample found in the study, Jewish people were in areas with I2A-DIN so rare mixing occured. This does not represent Slavs as a population. Saying this is cheap shot. If you want answers to these questions order dna test and check Ashkenazi %, for me Ashkenazi 0.00%.

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    i have no Ashkenazi either in my autosomal ethnicity estimate (it has almost nothing to do with our paternal ancestor since eg in the year 1000 AD our paternal ancestor was only 1 out of 2 billion ancestors - yes there werent 2 billion people by that time some of our ancestors had common ancestors etc) , nevertheless in the Ftdna I2 project there are 7 Jewish bigY tests and a total of 36 Jewish members A2512>A10959> Presumed Y23116. Most likely their ancestors lived in the Byzantine empire and moved to North East Europe about 1000 years ago since A2512 and A10959 have only been tested so far on Greeks.

    Anyway i don't belong to the Y23116 branch so it's not my interest. As far as the topic, 3 out of 4 branches of I-CTS10228 are probably good indicators of a movement from NorthEast Europe to the Balkans in the early ADs so it could be an indication of Slavic migration. The 4th branch, A2512 shows an earlier migration to Greece in the last centuries BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingslav View Post
    Only one sample found in the study, Jewish people were in areas with I2A-DIN so rare mixing occured. This does not represent Slavs as a population. Saying this is cheap shot. If you want answers to these questions order dna test and check Ashkenazi %, for me Ashkenazi 0.00%.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    i have no Ashkenazi either in my autosomal ethnicity estimate (it has almost nothing to do with our paternal ancestor since eg in the year 1000 AD our paternal ancestor was only 1 out of 2 billion ancestors - yes there werent 2 billion people by that time some of our ancestors had common ancestors etc) , nevertheless in the Ftdna I2 project there are 7 Jewish bigY tests and a total of 36 Jewish members A2512>A10959> Presumed Y23116. Most likely their ancestors lived in the Byzantine empire and moved to North East Europe about 1000 years ago since A2512 and A10959 have only been tested so far on Greeks.

    Anyway i don't belong to the Y23116 branch so it's not my interest. As far as the topic, 3 out of 4 branches of I-CTS10228 are probably good indicators of a movement from NorthEast Europe to the Balkans in the early ADs so it could be an indication of Slavic migration. The 4th branch, A2512 shows an earlier migration to Greece in the last centuries BC.

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    This is map some Croat guy made:

    I2a-CTS10228




    R1a + I2a-CTS10228:



    http://www.forum.hr/showpost.php?p=6...&postcount=182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    This is map some Croat guy made:

    I2a-CTS10228


    http://www.forum.hr/showpost.php?p=6...&postcount=182
    It's absolutely inaccurate, at least for Romania.
    I know this since I keep a database of Romanian results from different regions of the country. The results come mostly from academic journals.

    Here's how it should be for I2a more or less.


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    It would be very nice that you list those scientific articles.

    From "Y-Chromosome Analysis in Individuals Bearing the Basarab Name of the First Dynasty of Wallachian Kings":

    Of 38 individuals from Dolj, 5 is I-P37 ->13%
    11 from Mehedinti, 1 is P37 ->9%
    50 form Cluj, 6 are P37 ->12%
    50 from Brasov. 13 are P37->26%

    From "Paleo-Balkan and Slavic Contributions to the Genetic Pool of Moldavians: Insights from the Y Chromosome"
    Piatra Neamt 41%

    These numbers are pretty different from the numbers on your map.

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    Romania-Vrancea 11 28 3 10.71%
    Romania-Calarasi, Lalomita, Constanca 11 59 13 22.03%
    Romania -Olt, Prahova, Teleorman, Dambovita, Arges 11 35 11 31.43%
    Romania - Mehedinti and Dolj 9 46 6 13.04%
    Romania-Ploiesti (Prahova) 4 36 11 30.56%
    Romania - Constanta 4 31 10 32.26%
    Romania: Piatra-Neamt and Buhusi 12 54 22 40.7%
    Romania - Brasov 5 50 13 26.00%
    Romania- Cluj 5 50 6 12.00%
    Romania-Oradea 13 73 17 23.29%
    Moldova (South)- Karahasani 12 71 12 16.90%
    Moldova (North)- Sofia 12 54 14 25.93%

    My statistic for Romania and Moldova

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    I2a1b2a1 (I-CTS10228) - a strong marker of alien invasion

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    I made the new maps according to Vlad82 data, but have no rights to post links, images or anything until I reach 10 posts. Sorry...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ba97200 View Post
    The 4th branch, A2512 shows an earlier migration to Greece in the last centuries BC.
    I'm not sure that the TMRCA indicates a migration time, but A2512 seems interesting in that it seems to be almost all Greeks, Jews and a few Latinos. That's what is seen in Family Tree's YDNA I2 haplogroup project. What can account for this?

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

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    There is also a Chuvash sample of A2512. I think that A2512 had mingled with the Greeks and Jewish proselytes in some of the Greek colonies around Crimea and in the Bosporan Kingdom (Tanais, Chersonus, Phanagoria, Pontic Olbia, Tyras, Panticapaeum). Later, the Jews endend in Poland, the Greeks in Greece (the Latin man in Mexico came from Greece), and the Chuvash people picked up A2512 in its way from northern Caucasus along Volga to Chuvash Republic.

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    After a short look at the FTDNA Haplogroup I2a Project, I am almost certain that I am I-A2512. I will need to expand the markers to confirm it. I took the Y-DNA test a long time ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    After a short look at the FTDNA Haplogroup I2a Project, I am almost certain that I am I-A2512. I will need to expand the markers to confirm it. I took the Y-DNA test a long time ago.
    Could you tell us something more about your paternal line, e.g. region of origin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    Could you tell us something more about your paternal line, e.g. region of origin?
    From the Peloponnese. three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.

    I took only the 25 marker test, and I perfectly match another A2512 at 25 markers. I need to expand and take another test to confirm what looks like A2512 and even find the A2512 subclade.

    So now we have a possibility that a different clade came to Greece from the north earlier than the Slavic invasion period. Until a few days ago I had no idea there was this interesting branch of I2a-Dinaric.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.
    Sorry I made a mistake. I meant three out of four A2512 Greeks in the FTDNA Haplogroup I2A Project made it into the haplogroup tree. The fourth one is just A2512 with no subclade. That one didn't make it into the tree. Three are from the Peloponnese.

    Here is the tree.

    https://tinyurl.com/ycwt77ks

    Here again is the project.

    https://tinyurl.com/y9lopbjq

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    From the Peloponnese. three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.

    I took only the 25 marker test, and I perfectly match another A2512 at 25 markers. I need to expand and take another test to confirm what looks like A2512 and even find the A2512 subclade.

    So now we have a possibility that a different clade came to Greece from the north earlier than the Slavic invasion period. Until a few days ago I had no idea there was this interesting branch of I2a-Dinaric.
    I've been saying this for awhile but I think A2512 that went to Greece was probably originally a Scythian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    I've been saying this for awhile but I think A2512 that went to Greece was probably originally a Scythian.
    Could it have been someone from the Bastarnae people? They seemed to have originated near or in the I2a homeland. Plus, they are reported to have been involved in Balkan warfare right around the time of the TMRCA of A2512, a hundred or so years BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Could it have been someone from the Bastarnae people? They seemed to have originated near or in the I2a homeland. Plus, they are reported to have been involved in Balkan warfare right around the time of the TMRCA of A2512, a hundred or so years BC.
    It could be but did the Bastarnae end as South as the Peloponnese?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    From the Peloponnese. three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.

    I took only the 25 marker test, and I perfectly match another A2512 at 25 markers. I need to expand and take another test to confirm what looks like A2512 and even find the A2512 subclade.

    So now we have a possibility that a different clade came to Greece from the north earlier than the Slavic invasion period. Until a few days ago I had no idea there was this interesting branch of I2a-Dinaric.
    Thank you for reply Ralphie
    Raf has explained distribution of haplogroups in Greece (Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin, page 11). I2a is high in Arcadia (20%) and Northern Peloponnese (25%).
    On FTdna for Southern Greece we have following results:
    S17250:
    1x Z16971 -Kythira
    3x PH908 (DYS448=19) Athens, Geraki, Kosmas
    Y4460:
    1 x Y4460* -Lagkadia
    Z17855:
    1x Z17855 Corinth

    A2512:
    2x A2512>A10959 -Arcadia and Sparta
    1x A2512>A7134 - Messina
    2x S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- need A2512 – Arcadia and Zante

    There are two dinaric north Y25 (one probably yours, other unknown location) which very likely belong to A2512. Also, a result on Ysearch, (from Diakopi or Dhiakopion, Greece) has close matches in A2512.
    There are 3 more dinaric north results from Southern Greece (2x Peloponnese, 1x Agrinio), for them I cannot give any prediction about deeper subclade. The one from Agrionio is very interesting because have 9 or 10 markers of 111 tested that are slightly out of modal for dinaric.
    In my opinion A2512 has started to spread around Mediterranean from Peloponnese. Except one from Thasos, rest of positive on this SNP are from The Peloponnese and islands around it. This branch has been also found in Spain, among Jews and Chuvash people from Russia. Tested A2512+ from Spain have Greek origin, also Jewish people might have paternal line from Greece according to Yfull tree.
    A man from Chuvashia has completed a Big Y recently (I think) and he is assigned to A2512>A7134, maybe analysis of his results gives us an approximate time when A2512 in Southern Greece and East Europe split up. At least 3 branches of A2512 are present in Greece with TMRCA 2200 years, so very likely a group of people came there in period between 100. BC and 500 A.D
    Last edited by Vlad82; 12-12-17 at 18:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    Thank you for reply Ralphie
    Raf has explained distribution of haplogroups in Greece (Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin, page 11). I2a is high in Arcadia (20%) and Northern Peloponnese (25%).
    On FTdna for Southern Greece we have following results:
    S17250:
    1x Z16971 -Kythira
    3x PH908 (DYS448=19) Athens, Geraki, Kosmas
    Y4460:
    1 x Y4460* -Lagkadia
    Z17855:
    1x Z17855 Corinth

    A2512:
    2x A2512>A10959 -Arcadia and Sparta
    1x A2512>A7134 - Messina
    2x S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- need A2512 – Arcadia and Zante

    There are two dinaric north Y25 (one probably yours, other unknown location) which very likely belong to A2512. Also, a result on Ysearch, (from Diakopi or Dhiakopion, Greece) has close matches in A2512.
    There are 3 more dinaric north results from Southern Greece (2x Peloponnese, 1x Agrinio), for them I cannot give any prediction about deeper subclade. The one from Agrionio is very interesting because have 9 or 10 markers of 111 tested that are slightly out of modal for dinaric.
    In my opinion A2512 has started to spread around Mediterranean from Peloponnese. Except one from Thasos, rest of positive on this SNP are from The Peloponnese and islands around it. This branch has been also found in Spain, among Jews and Chuvash people from Russia. Tested A2512+ from Spain have Greek origin, also Jewish people might have paternal line from Greece according to Yfull tree.
    A man from Chuvashia has completed a Big Y recently (I think) and he is assigned to A2512>A7134, maybe analysis of his results gives us an approximate time when A2512 in Southern Greece and East Europe split up. At least 3 branches of A2512 are present in Greece with TMRCA 2200 years, so very likely a group of people came there in period between 100. BC and 500 A.D
    Thanks so much for keeping track of and providing us with I-CTS10228 data for Greeks.

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    I don't know why some say that I-CTS10228 has TMRCA of 2200 ybp, when on the YFULL tree, I see something else:
    I just checked the YFULL tree and for this particular subclade, the TMRCA is 3800 ybp.
    Are there any updates about this subclade?
    If so, than there will be big questions about the theory "not native in the Balkans"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I don't know why some say that I-CTS10228 has TMRCA of 2200 ybp, when on the YFULL tree, I see something else:
    I just checked the YFULL tree and for this particular subclade, the TMRCA is 3800 ybp.
    Are there any updates about this subclade?
    If so, than there will be big questions about the theory "not native in the Balkans"...
    Prove with something that CTS10228 is native in the Balkans. For now as far I know subclade CTS10228 has a source in White Croatia or today's southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine. How will be in the future I do not know


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    I am just asking weather someone knows about this change?
    And I am not saying that this haplo is native to the Balkans, but there is a chance some subbranches of it to have been in the Balkans before the Slavs came in if TMRCA is true!

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    There are probably some subbranches native in the Balkans, we have to look in Albanian and Italian population. If Slavs arrived to Balkans (7th century) someone had to go towards Albania and Italy. In any case we have to wait. What we know for now is that and possible Balkans subbranches of I-CTS10228 have a source in southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine. It is for now.

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