Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 76 to 95 of 95

Thread: I2a1b2a1 (I-CTS10228) - a strong marker of Slavic expansion

  1. #76
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    17-09-17
    Posts
    321
    Points
    3,221
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,221, Level: 16
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 229
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Country: United States



    Most South Slavs of I2a today belong to I-S17250. It has a TMRCA of 1850 YBP. Two things can be observed in relation to it, into I-Y3120, many belong to Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, etc. There is greater diversity in that area, which means that I-S17250 probably formed there, around 2200 years ago. But if you look below, into I-S17250, Poland, Ukraine and Belarus have almost none of it. That means I-S17250 moved out of the Poland-Ukraine region around the time of the TMRCA and then expanded, although the sample is still relatively small. It would be very interesting to get more data from I-S17250 and if more mutations to it can be discovered, then this theory could be tested: if all the newer mutations are in the Balkans, but none or very few are in Poland and Ukraine, then it would be settled that it came to the Balkans with the Slavs. Even as it is now though, there is fairly strong evidence for it.

    As for other clades, there are very few Balkan I2a clades other than I-S17250, and even the ones you can find have relatively young TMRCAs. So it seems almost all I2a came in close waves. It is possible some older I2a might have remained since before the Neolithic expansions, but the current data says close to none of it did.

    But even if you get new data and find Balkan I2a with higher TMRCA it doesn't necessarily mean it's pre-slavic. The TMRCA would have to be >2000 or 2500 YBP, but it would also have to be rare in the supposed Slavic homeland in Poland and Ukraine, and less diverse than in the Balkans in its older clades. Otherwise, it could well be that many clades from Poland and Ukraine migrated in the 6th century, bringing their TMRCAs with them.

  2. #77
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    616
    Points
    6,404
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,404, Level: 23
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    But if you look below, into I-S17250, Poland, Ukraine and Belarus have almost none of it.
    In this area exist I-S17250 subclade, which means that place of origin is probably there.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=ymap

  3. #78
    Wanderer Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    singingfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-03-15
    Posts
    32
    Points
    3,740
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,740, Level: 17
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 110
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b2a1a2*- I-A7358
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1b

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    In this area exist I-S17250 subclade, which means that place of origin is probably there.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=ymap
    They need to update the first map. It still designates I-S17250 as I2a2. It should be I2a1b. YFull shows mostly Polish under the I-Y4882. It is a subclade of I-S17250
    Y dna I2a1b2a1a2e~ - I-A7358
    Mt dna T1a1b

  4. #79
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    03-09-16
    Posts
    44
    Points
    2,589
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,589, Level: 14
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Poland



    S17250 is present in Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, where its frequency is probably lower than among South Slavs. I-Y3120xS17250 is not totally absent among South Slavs, branch Z17855 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/) was found in Montenegro, Bulgaria and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

  5. #80
    Junior Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    26-05-17
    Posts
    5
    Points
    1,423
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,423, Level: 10
    Level completed: 37%, Points required for next Level: 127
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Is it safe to say that S17250 is white croats?

  6. #81
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    616
    Points
    6,404
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,404, Level: 23
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by balkanbro View Post
    Is it safe to say that S17250 is white croats?
    Only people in the Balkans whom genetics confirms historical record of migration to Balkans are Croats.

    When they establish source of Croatian R1a subclades then we will know exactly.

  7. #82
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    srdceleva's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    403
    Points
    5,687
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,687, Level: 22
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 363
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-m458(L260)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4b1b1

    Ethnic group
    75% Slovak, 25℅ American mix
    Country: Slovakia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I dont know why there is even much of a debate about slavic ancestry in the balkans. Its clear even from commercial autosomal tests that croatians and bosnians are coming back as literally half slavic if not more for some people when ukrainians and poles are used as proxy for slavic ancestry. Serbs on gedmatch can be modeled as being 50% ukrainian and 50% greek. When people used to speak about genetics and only bring up y haplogroups suddenly back then everyone started claiming south slavs arent genetically slavic. We are now realizing this is b.s. Maybe they arent as slavic as many northern slavs but their slavic ancestry is significant, as mentioned more than half for croatians and bosnians.

  8. #83
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    616
    Points
    6,404
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,404, Level: 23
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by srdceleva View Post
    I dont know why there is even much of a debate about slavic ancestry in the balkans. Its clear even from commercial autosomal tests that croatians and bosnians are coming back as literally half slavic if not more for some people when ukrainians and poles are used as proxy for slavic ancestry. Serbs on gedmatch can be modeled as being 50% ukrainian and 50% greek. When people used to speak about genetics and only bring up y haplogroups suddenly back then everyone started claiming south slavs arent genetically slavic. We are now realizing this is b.s. Maybe they arent as slavic as many northern slavs but their slavic ancestry is significant, as mentioned more than half for croatians and bosnians.
    How do you mean half Slavic? Today's Slovenes mostly have pre-Turkish Y genetics, probably with German (Austrian) R1b influence.

    Therefore that there was no migration from east Balkan ( Turkish period) to Croatia the main haplotypes of Croatians would have been R1a and I2a ie. genetics that were brought from White Croatia or Carpatians to Balkans.

  9. #84
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    How do you mean half Slavic? Today's Slovenes mostly have pre-Turkish Y genetics, probably with German (Austrian) R1b influence.

    Therefore that there was no migration from east Balkan ( Turkish period) to Croatia the main haplotypes of Croatians would have been R1a and I2a ie. genetics that were brought from White Croatia or Carpatians to Balkans.
    Non-Slavic ancestry in South Slavs mostly came with females. It won't show up in the Y-DNA.

  10. #85
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    06-04-18
    Posts
    572


    Country: Romania



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Non-Slavic ancestry in South Slavs mostly came with females. It won't show up in the Y-DNA.

    I really don't buy it, lot of I2a was redistributed by the Vlachs into the South-Slav population,with further Paleo-Balkan dilution of the gene poll, a"Re-Slavization", and ,in the same time,further genetic drift,explaining the small amount of R1a.


    Read Yugoslav papers,about the gradual disappearance (until 16th-17th c.) of the Vlachs( and Vlach military class) from the Serbian state.
    Last edited by Dreptul Valah; 29-05-19 at 10:15.

  11. #86
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    616
    Points
    6,404
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,404, Level: 23
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Dreptul Valah View Post
    I really don't buy it, lot of I2a was redistributed by the Vlachs into the South-Slav population,with further Paleo-Balkan dilution of the gene poll, a"Re-Slavization", and ,in the same time,further genetic drift,explaining the small amount of R1a.


    Read Yugoslav papers,about the gradual disappearance (until 16th-17th c.) of the Vlachs( and Vlach military class) from the Serbian state.
    I2a exist and in the Vlachs but I2a branches originally coming to Balkans with Croats and other Slavs.
    If Slavs are asimilated into Vlachs(Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece etc) they probably married Balkan women but we first need to see MtDNA as evidence for all Slavic groups in the Balkans.

  12. #87
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    616
    Points
    6,404
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,404, Level: 23
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Non-Slavic ancestry in South Slavs mostly came with females. It won't show up in the Y-DNA.
    Do you have any MtDNA evidence?

  13. #88
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    06-04-18
    Posts
    572


    Country: Romania



    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I2a exist and in the Vlachs but I2a branches originally coming to Balkans with Croats and other Slavs.
    If Slavs are asimilated into Vlachs(Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece etc) they probably married Balkan women but we first need to see MtDNA as evidence for all Slavic groups in the Balkans.

    What if,Slavs/I2a were ultimately*assimilated into the Byzantine army and Constantinople nobility too?


    I mean ,Constantinople is in/near the Balkans,maybe it had more I2a in the past,like today's Greece,with the Anatolization taking place with Turks(native Anatolian Greek acolytes).


    EDIT

    *
    I have edited my post,added "ultimately".

  14. #89
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    616
    Points
    6,404
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,404, Level: 23
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Dreptul Valah View Post
    What if,Slavs/I2a were assimilated into the Byzantine army and Constantinople nobility too?
    Possible, but they are still coming from direction of Carpatians to the Balkans. When we find out which younger I2a, R1a subbranches are exist in the Balkans then we will know more.

    I mean ,Constantinople is in/near the Balkans,maybe it had more I2a in the past,like today's Greeks,with the Anatolization taking place with Turks(native Anatolian Greeks acolytes).
    For now we do not know it yet because we do not have genetic data to prove it, but ultimately everything is possible.

  15. #90
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    06-04-18
    Posts
    572


    Country: Romania



    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    , but ultimately everything is possible.
    I already edited my post.


    EDIT

    No,it's not,even if Captain Picard and Einstein said it,but taking "risks"in interesting situations, that is really possible.

  16. #91
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Do you have any MtDNA evidence?
    Mtdna is really bad for tracking intra-European migrations. You need to familiarize yourself with the fundamentals.

  17. #92
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    616
    Points
    6,404
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,404, Level: 23
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Dreptul Valah View Post
    I already edited my post.


    EDIT


    No,it's not,even if Captain Picard and Einstein said it,but taking "risks"in interesting situations, that is really possible.
    You may have been on a good track because Byzantium needed an alliance or Slav warriors at that time, still the Avars are in Pannonia. If we follow De Administrando Imperio Croatians are invited to fight Avars. But there are some Slavs who attack Byzantine, some Slavs who living in Byzantine etc etc. Maybe genetics or archaeogenetics says more in the future.

  18. #93
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    616
    Points
    6,404
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,404, Level: 23
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Mtdna is really bad for tracking intra-European migrations. You need to familiarize yourself with the fundamentals.
    How do you know then that Slavs married Balkan women when you make no evidence?

  19. #94
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    How do you know then that Slavs married Balkan women when you make no evidence?
    Look at any PCA and tell me why South Slavs generally do not plot with other Slavs.

  20. #95
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    01-09-14
    Location
    Zagreb
    Posts
    616
    Points
    6,404
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,404, Level: 23
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 146
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Look at any PCA and tell me why South Slavs generally do not plot with other Slavs.
    This is visible and if we follow Y DNA but I was asking you specific Balkans MtDNA which Croatian women have.

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •