Tested great uncle's DNA his father was from Italy what do these results mean?

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redeyednewt

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I tested the YDNA of my great uncle who had a father from Calabria Italy and I received these results, what exactly do they mean?

[h=5]PANEL 1 (1-12)[/h]
MarkerDYS393DYS390DYS19**DYS391DYS385DYS426DYS388DYS439DYS389IDYS392DYS389II***
Value1422161015-15111311131230


[h=5]PANEL 2 (13-25)[/h]
MarkerDYS458DYS459DYS455DYS454DYS447DYS437DYS448DYS449DYS464
Value159-1011112514202611-14-14-15


[h=5]PANEL 3 (26-37)[/h]
MarkerDYS460Y-GATA-H4YCAIIDYS456DYS607DYS576DYS570CDYDYS442DYS438
Value101019-211514181933-391210

 
Don't you know his haplogroup?
 
He must be a Norman indeed.
 
OK what else does it mean? Yes the haplo-group for my great-uncle was I-M223.

But I'm not sure what the rest of the data means, or which cultures/countries the results are from, does anyone know?

By Norman do you mean Norse/Scandinavian originally and then being from the region of France called Normandy but intermarrying with French and German people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans#Italy


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest_of_southern_Italy
 
redeyednewt said:
OK what else does it mean? Yes the haplo-group for my great-uncle was I-M223.

But I'm not sure what the rest of the data means, or which cultures/countries the results are from, does anyone know?

By Norman do you mean Norse/Scandinavian originally and then being from the region of France called Normandy but intermarrying with French and German people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans#Italy


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest_of_southern_Italy
Click to expand...

The Normans who arrived in South Italy were from Normandy but in their troops there were some Scandinavians, Saxons, Bretons and Provenzal as well. Northern Calabria, Cosenza has around 6% of I-M223 according to Sarno et al. King Roger II was born in Calabria, near Mileto.
 
Cullen's Predictor agrees with I2-M223 and adds to that a guess of I2-M223 "Cont" (CTS10100), which is indeed the more typically Germanic-looking branch. Try seeing if you get assigned to a more specific subclade by joining the M223 Project. In the meantime, read more about I2-M223 at Maciamo's I2 page, and see famous relatives at my Searching For Famous I2 Carriers.
 
sparkey said:
Cullen's Predictor agrees with I2-M223 and adds to that a guess of I2-M223 "Cont" (CTS10100), which is indeed the more typically Germanic-looking branch. Try seeing if you get assigned to a more specific subclade by joining the M223 Project. In the meantime, read more about I2-M223 at Maciamo's I2 page, and see famous relatives at my Searching For Famous I2 Carriers.
Click to expand...
OK thanks I did join the M223 project when I first got the results back. My great-uncle, and his father were not famous but they are OK with this.

Do you or anyone reading this happen to know what the other marker results mean, or which countries/cultures they are from?
 
redeyednewt said:
OK thanks I did join the M223 project when I first got the results back. My great-uncle, and his father were not famous but they are OK with this.

Do you or anyone reading this happen to know what the other marker results mean, or which countries/cultures they are from?
Click to expand...

The y-chromosome does not recombine (at least, under normal circumstances), so typically one would not have markers from all sorts of cultures mixed up into their haplogroup, unlike autosomal DNA (which does recombine). The fact that the y-chromosome is passed nearly unchanged (except for new mutations) from father to son allows us to explore its deep ancestry in a way not possible with autosomal DNA. For example, if I have a son with a Greek woman, he will have a Celtic haplogroup, not a Greek one or a half Celtic/half Greek one.

Your haplogroup does seem to be one that is probably Germanic. It could be Norman, but could also be from the Vandals, Visigoths, or some other tribe. Joining a haplogroup project could help you find your place in the more recent areas of the haplogroup's family tree, which could help you narrow down when your ancestor's line probably came to Italy and where they may have come from.
 
Hauteville said:
He must be a Norman indeed.

The Normans who arrived in South Italy were from Normandy but in their troops there were some Scandinavians, Saxons, Bretons and Provenzal as well. Northern Calabria, Cosenza has around 6% of I-M223 according to Sarno et al. King Roger II was born in Calabria, near Mileto.
Click to expand...

RobertColumbia said:
The y-chromosome does not recombine (at least, under normal circumstances), so typically one would not have markers from all sorts of cultures mixed up into their haplogroup, unlike autosomal DNA (which does recombine). The fact that the y-chromosome is passed nearly unchanged (except for new mutations) from father to son allows us to explore its deep ancestry in a way not possible with autosomal DNA. For example, if I have a son with a Greek woman, he will have a Celtic haplogroup, not a Greek one or a half Celtic/half Greek one.

Your haplogroup does seem to be one that is probably Germanic. It could be Norman, but could also be from the Vandals, Visigoths, or some other tribe. Joining a haplogroup project could help you find your place in the more recent areas of the haplogroup's family tree, which could help you narrow down when your ancestor's line probably came to Italy and where they may have come from.
Click to expand...

OK I posted the question in the I2-M223 group asking what the other YDNA data meant and someone replied it was from Southwest France, and Northern Spain? Is this accurate? What else does the YDNA show?
 
Ostrogoths settled in Italy, Visigoths more in Spain. From which part of Calabria he was from?
 
redeyednewt said:
OK I posted the question in the I2-M223 group asking what the other YDNA data meant and someone replied it was from Southwest France, and Northern Spain? Is this accurate? What else does the YDNA show?
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure what they're getting at with that. I checked the M223 Project at FTDNA and they have a match classified as I2-M223>CTS10100>Z76>Z183>CTS6433 (nicknamed Cont2a). That subclade has a wide range with samples ranging from Scotland to Greece, but in general it seems to center on Germany, not France/Spain, where it has little representation. They actually have a lot more Italian samples in that subclade than Spanish or French ones. Although, the two most famous I2-M223 Cont2 carriers I know of both have links to France: Davy Crockett and Napoleon III.
 
The probability is 99.67% for haplogroup I2a2a-M223 according to the Nevgen predictor.
Click to expand...
OK I posted the question in the I2-M223 group asking what the other YDNA data meant and someone replied it was from Southwest France, and Northern Spain? Is this accurate? What else does the YDNA show?
Click to expand...

You must go deeper into subclades - I2a2a was present in ancient DNA in many places.

People with this haplogroup (I2a2a-M223) lived all the way from Spain to Russia already in the Copper/Bronze Age.

The oldest sample found so far is from Megalithic Spain (I2a2a1b2 from La Mina). Then in Copper Age Spain (El Portalón, El Mirador, Matojo) there are three samples of I2a2a, one of I2a2a2 and one of I2a2a1. From Vatya culture and from Lánycsók Csata-alja in Hungary there is one I2a2a, one I2a2a1 and one I2a2a1a2a2. From Yamnaya/Catacomb in Russia there is one I2a2a1b1b2.

In total at least 10 prehistoric Y-DNA samples of I2a2a known so far (I listed them all above).

So - without knowing more details about your subclade, it is impossible to tell. This haplogroup - I2a2a-M223 - formed around 17600 years ago and had its time of the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) about 12200 years ago. Check the tree here:

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M223/
 
Hauteville said:
Ostrogoths settled in Italy, Visigoths more in Spain. From which part of Calabria he was from?
Click to expand...
My great-grandfather or my uncle's father was from Spineto, near Belmonte Calabro, Cosenza, Calabria.

I also have other ancestors from my great-grandfather's family who were from other parts of Cosenza such as Cosenza itself, Lago, and Belmonte Calabro.
 
sparkey said:
I'm not entirely sure what they're getting at with that. I checked the M223 Project at FTDNA and they have a match classified as I2-M223>CTS10100>Z76>Z183>CTS6433 (nicknamed Cont2a). That subclade has a wide range with samples ranging from Scotland to Greece, but in general it seems to center on Germany, not France/Spain, where it has little representation. They actually have a lot more Italian samples in that subclade than Spanish or French ones. Although, the two most famous I2-M223 Cont2 carriers I know of both have links to France: Davy Crockett and Napoleon III.
Click to expand...
OK this is the reply I received in the M223 group.

CTv6wnv.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/CTv6wnv.jpg
 
redeyednewt said:
OK this is the reply I received in the M223 group.

CTv6wnv.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/CTv6wnv.jpg
Click to expand...

Oh OK, that's a different time period than what we were describing. We were thinking more of what the line would have been doing within the last 2,000 years (Germanic expansion, etc.), but Mr. Neuharth there is speculating about where I2-M223 originated 15,000 years ago.

Neuharth's guess is pretty reasonable--I'd agree that M223's presence in the Azilian culture 15,000 years ago is very possible. There are other possibilities, though, with the uncertainty largely due to the fact that we don't have Azilian samples, and our one near-contemporary sample (Grotte du Bichon, a 13,600-year old sample from Switzerland) tested as a different I2 branch.
 
redeyednewt said:
My great-grandfather or my uncle's father was from Spineto, near Belmonte Calabro, Cosenza, Calabria.

I also have other ancestors from my great-grandfather's family who were from other parts of Cosenza such as Cosenza itself, Lago, and Belmonte Calabro.
Click to expand...


There is sure an hotspot of M223 around there.
 
Sparkey, I don't think that I2-M223 is related in any way to Germanic expansion.

Rather, it seems to be related to the same expansion which brought the Bronze Age from Central Europe to Ireland.

So presumably that was some group of Celts (remember, that Celtic heartland was in Central Europe - Britain was a periphery).

Later, those who remained in Germany were assimilated into Germanic-speakers, particularly Thuringians. Check my thread about it (link below), in which I've noticed a correlation between Rathlin Bronze Age autosomal and I2-M223. Thuringia which is the hotspot of I2-M223 frequency in Germany - is also the continental hotspot of Irish Bronze Age autosomal ancestry (only Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Ireland have higher amounts):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31924-Thuringia-just-correlation-or-causation-as-well

Thuringia = high amount of Rathlin Bronze Age autosomal + low frequency of R1b-U106/S21 + high frequency of I2a2-M223:

Turyngia.png
 
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