A real life Stone Age battle

Angela,

There is evidence of domesticated horses and of horseback riding in both Corded Ware and Bell Beaker cultures.

Only supporters of the Anatolian PIE hypothesis and scholars with anti-migratory bias tend to deny these facts.





In the battle of Panium in 200 BC Seleucid cataphracts charged "this thing" from behind, and utterly defeated it.

So as you can see even phalanx was defenceless as long as they had no protection of the flanks and the rear.

Alexander the Great had excellent cavalry troops which prevented outflanking by Persian cavalry in each battle.
Why do you find all people biased that doesn't agree with your own theory?

Seleucid was himself of Macedonian descent and behind the phalanx was neither Philip or Alexander the one that mastered this formation but Ptolemaics in the battle of Panium,the Successor Kingdoms of Macedon's empire they tried expanding upon the design, creating pikes as long as 6.75 m (22.1 ft), but all of these ideas were eventually abandoned in favor of the battle-tried Philippine-Alexandrian sarissa,they were both using them,Seleucids were not something else neither from different military "school" he of course knew how to fight and what tactics he should use btw against their buddies Ptolemaics but as you can see that this Phalanx made their way to India the Persian chariots were utterly defeated by them over and over again,the cavalry was important thing too but not much more then the Peltast i can mention the Thracian Agrianes and their great contribution to Alexander victories,they were javelin throwers and an elite unit of Alexander the Great's light infantry,they were protecting the Phalanx.It is military formation in which all of them have contributio,all historians give them credit that they contributed the most for Macedonian victories but you deny this?somehow you think that the cavalry is superior to anything else.
Don't understand you what cataphract has to do with early Indo-Europeans in Europe?

The reliance on cavalry as a means of warfare in general lies with the ancient inhabitants of the Central Asian steppes in early antiquity, who were one of the first peoples to domesticate the horse and pioneered the development of the chariot. Most of these nomadic tribes and wandering pastoralists circa 2000 BC were largely Bronze-Age, Iranian populations who migrated from the steppes of Central Asia into the Iranian Plateau and Greater Iran from around 1000 BC to 800 BC. Two of these tribes are attested based upon archaeological evidence: the Mitanni and the Kassites. Although evidence is scant, they are believed to have raised and bred horses for specific purposes, as is evidenced by the large archaeological record of their use of the chariot and several treatises on the training of chariot horses.The one founding prerequisite towards the development of cataphract cavalry in the Ancient Near East, apart from advanced metalworking techniques and the necessary grazing pastures for raising horses, was the evolution of selective breeding and animal husbandry. Cataphract cavalry needed immensely strong and endurant horses, and without selectively breeding horses for muscular strength and hardiness, they would have surely not been able to bear the immense loads of armor and a rider during the strain of battle.The Near East is generally believed to have been the focal point for where this first occurred.

If there was much of horseman culture in what is now Poland why would you adopt a Hussar cavalry introduced by Serbian and Hungarian merchants?however they contributed for the decisive victory in the battle of Vienna against Ottomans.

Early "Proto-Cossack" groups are generally reported to have come into existence within the present-day Ukraine in the mid-13th century as the influence of Cumans grew weak though some have ascribed their origins to as early as the tenth century.Some historians suggest that the Cossack people were of mixed ethnic origins, descending from Russians, Ukrainians, Moldavians, Poles, Turks, Tatars, and others who settled or passed through the vast Steppe.However some Turkologists argue that Cossacks are descendants of native Cumans of Ukraine, who lived there long ago before the Mongol invasion.
I will again however for this Nomadic warfare give credit to Iranic and Turkic speaking people of the steppe who knows if there was others among them? Later we have the Cumans.
They had always contact with South East Europe firstly with Thracians then other groups of people "meeting" in present Ukraine Black sea region somewhere.
In my opinion Nomadic warfare is good for raiding or plunder as they raid and retreat but for something durable you need infantry as well more mixed military formation,while all of them are important,i don't know why we should make so much big deal of cavalry?
 
bicicleur said:
which evidence precisely?

There appears to be some. Biomechanical analysis of the tibial midshaft geometry and a cross-sectional analysis of femoral midshafts show that Corded Ware males were most likely frequently riding horses. However, there is no such evidence when it comes to skeletons of CW females. It shows that probably horse riding/herding responsibilities fell to CW males and more sedentary, home-bound agricultural and child-rearing responsibilities fell to CW females. The comparison was between CW males and Early Bronze Age males, as well as between CW females and EBA females. And the result is that CW females were not more mobile than EBA females, but CW males were. However, IMO they should have been comparing CW females to Neolithic females - not to EBA females. Because EBA females could actually be involved in some horseback riding.

Then of course we have horse bones and evidence of horse sacrifice at burial and settlement sites throughout the Corded Ware culture. On the other hand you have people like Jurgita Žukauskaitė, an author with an anti-migrationist bias who wants to see Balts as some of the most indigenous peoples of Europe and therefore claim that horse bones from Central European Corded Ware were of domesticated horses, but horse bones from East Baltic Corded Ware were of wild horses - and that horses were only used as food resources. But she does not explain why she thinks so.

Milan said:
Why do you find all people biased that doesn't agree with your own theory?

With what theory exactly ???

You are talking about Late Antiquity, and the thread is about Neolithic and Early Metal Ages.

Your posts are Off-Topic here. Neolithic people did not have any phalanxes.

Milan said:
If there was much of horseman culture in what is now Poland why would you adopt a Hussar cavalry introduced by Serbian and Hungarian merchants?

Again - this is totally Off-Topic. This thread is not about the Early Modern Era, or about Serbia, Hungary or Poland. But Hussar cavalry used by Serbians was a type of light cavalry, while Winged Hussar which developed in Poland was a type of heavy cavalry. Those were totally different types of cavalry, with only the same name. Besides, Polish armies relied heavily on cavalry already during the Early Middle Ages, under the Piast dynasty. Do you think that the history of cavalry began with Hussars, or what?

Milan said:
Early "Proto-Cossack" groups are generally reported to have come into existence within the present-day Ukraine in the mid-13th century

Where did you take this info from ???

I have never heard about any Cossacks existing before the 15th or even 16th centuries.

And Cossack was not an ethnicity - it was a mode of living (essentially it means "Pirate").
 
Milan said:
I will again however for this Nomadic warfare give credit to Iranic and Turkic speaking people of the steppe

Zaporozhian Cossacks from Ukraine in the 16th-17th centuries were never famous for "Nomadic warfare".

Quite the contrary - they were famous for infantry, wagon forts and naval warfare (piracy) in the Black Sea.

When you think Cossacks, you have in mind Russian cavalry troops of the 18th-20th centuries, apparently.

Here mid-17th century Cossack infantry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD6UkzJs9h0#t=2m38s

Milan said:
Don't understand you what cataphract has to do with early Indo-Europeans in Europe?

In this context we aren't talking about cataphracts, but horse warriors similar to Native American cavalry:

And with similar weapons as Native Americans - except for guns - so spears, javelins, bows, axes, maces, etc.:

 
With what theory exactly ???

You are talking about Late Antiquity, and the thread is about Neolithic and Early Metal Ages.

Your posts are Off-Topic here. Neolithic people did not have any phalanxes.



Again - this is totally Off-Topic. This thread is not about the Early Modern Era, or about Serbia, Hungary or Poland. But Hussar cavalry used by Serbians was a type of light cavalry, while Winged Hussar which developed in Poland was a type of heavy cavalry. Those were totally different types of cavalry, with only the same name. Besides, Polish armies relied heavily on cavalry already during the Early Middle Ages, under the Piast dynasty. Do you think that the history of cavalry began with Hussars, or what?



Where did you take this info from ???

I have never heard about any Cossacks existing before the 15th or even 16th centuries.

And Cossack was not an ethnicity - it was a mode of living (essentially it means "Pirate").

Yes likewise in Neolithic times we have not reported cavalry either.
You know that you are not right,but whatever make you happy i better stop right there.
About the Cossacks it is their reconstructed history,yes it was not ethnicity but it has been argued as i know that they descent from those previous Nomads living there they didn't vanished,many names has been proposed about their origin and that will be in which language? but i can tell you that Hussar/Gusar mean "pirate" in fact.
 
With what theory exactly ???

You are talking about Late Antiquity, and the thread is about Neolithic and Early Metal Ages.

Your posts are Off-Topic here. Neolithic people did not have any phalanxes.



Again - this is totally Off-Topic. This thread is not about the Early Modern Era, or about Serbia, Hungary or Poland. But Hussar cavalry used by Serbians was a type of light cavalry, while Winged Hussar which developed in Poland was a type of heavy cavalry. Those were totally different types of cavalry, with only the same name. Besides, Polish armies relied heavily on cavalry already during the Early Middle Ages, under the Piast dynasty. Do you think that the history of cavalry began with Hussars, or what?



Where did you take this info from ???

I have never heard about any Cossacks existing before the 15th or even 16th centuries.

And Cossack was not an ethnicity - it was a mode of living (essentially it means "Pirate").
We have no evidence in Neolithic time of cavalry either,it was about warfare it is off-topic.
You know you are not right,but whatever make you happy i better stop there.
It is their reconstructed history,they believe they descent from the previous nomads that lived there as those people did not vanished,in which language mean pirate,in turn i can tell you that Hussar/Gusar mean "pirate'.
 
Tomenable:

"Then of course we have horse bones and evidence of horse sacrifice at burial and settlement sites throughout the Corded Ware culture."

How does that have anything to do with horse riding? Plus, to the best of my recollection there are actually very few horse burials in Corded Ware.

"There appears to be some. Biomechanical analysis of the tibial midshaft geometry and a cross-sectional analysis of femoral midshafts show that Corded Ware males were most likely frequently riding horses. However, there is no such evidence when it comes to skeletons of CW females. It shows that probably horse riding/herding responsibilities fell to CW males and more sedentary, home-bound agricultural and child-rearing responsibilities fell to CW females. The comparison was between CW males and Early Bronze Age males, as well as between CW females and EBA females. And the result is that CW females were not more mobile than EBA females, but CW males were. However, IMO they should have been comparing CW females to Neolithic females - not to EBA females. Because EBA females could actually be involved in some horseback riding."

I was going to ask for a citation, but it doesn't really matter. This is not enough to build a case for horseback riding in Corded Ware, much less using horses for warfare. I'm not saying it couldn't be the case, but so far it's total speculation so far as I can see.

All your other examples are from much later periods and different places.
 
Many scholars such as Marsha Levine also claim that there is no evidence of horse-riding in Yamnaya culture.

But it all depends on what level/degree of evidence does one expect.

There is also not much evidence of horse-riding from Bell Beaker, at least not from early sites of that culture.
 
We have no evidence in Neolithic time of cavalry either
It doesn't need to be cavalry to give an advantage in warfare. Horse helped mobility a lot. Warriors who rode horses for transportation only, could mobiles more troops from far away and in much shorter time, and transport more weapons, than warriors on foot.

If it come to fighting on horses, even the smallest ones, Mongols were the masters. Combination of mobility, speed and composite bow. They could have learnt it from Scythians, and Scythians from steppe people before them.
 
It doesn't need to be cavalry to give an advantage in warfare. Horse helped mobility a lot. Warriors who rode horses for transportation only, could mobiles more troops from far away and in much shorter time, and transport more weapons, than warriors on foot.

If it come to fighting on horses, even the smallest ones, Mongols were the masters. Combination of mobility, speed and composite bow. They could have learnt it from Scythians, and Scythians from steppe people before them.
True they were experts,in my opinion the conquest might have started with Mongols but they absorbed many people with them with further conquests this steppe confederation in turn will find many dynasties after it's dissolution,the remnants of the Cumans were no exception as they were fleeing from the Mongols other join perhaps,this people were called "blondes" by most of their neighbors but speaking Turkic language.

The steppe people or "confederation" in my opinion was consisted of various people,they were expert horseman they have adopted siege engines and catapults for fortified cities also,they had their golden age,
but can we compare all this to PIE people and did the language spread that way is another matter,however it did i will be happy to know.
 
@Milan M

In my opinion Nomadic warfare is good for raiding or plunder as they raid and retreat ... i don't know why we should make so much big deal of cavalry?

That is exactly the reason imo. Not organized cavalry armies conquering adjacent peoples but the steppe equivalent of Numidians or Sioux raiding and forcing adjacent populations to move away (edit) and then moving into the vacated territory.

Numidians etc aren't proof but they disprove the idea the PIE couldn't have had effective *light* raiding cavalry before stirrups as Numidians were famously effective (as light skirmish cavalry) and yet didn't have/use stirrups, saddles or bridles.

#

edit

or maybe Comanche are a better example as they became so mixed with captives from their raiding.
 
Some interesting data here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jivaroan_peoples

War_deaths_caused_by_warfare.svg


Source: Lawrence Keeley, "War Before Civilization: the Myth of the Peaceful Savage".
 
I'm not very romantic about primitive peoples, or any peoples, actually, so I'm certainly no believer in the whole "Noble Savage" idea.

On the other hand, are "modern" European descent people peace loving, love your neighbor types? Let's take a look at the 20th Century as a whole. How many people died in Europe during World War II? 40 million? A lot of them were killed by their fellow citizens, whether in Germany, Eastern Europe or Russia. It wasn't even warfare where at least the contest is somewhat equal. It was the starvation, deportation, and murder of unarmed men, women, children, babies. Then Europe did it again in the Balkans. Or look back toward World War I. How many millions died because of that conflict?

I don't understand these kinds of comparisons. Does anyone really think it's over for good, that we in western society have turned some sort of page?

I still think in rather Biblical terms; it's all those years of religious education. :) All humans bear the mark of Cain, although perhaps it's fainter in some than in others.
 
On the other hand, are "modern" European descent people peace loving, love your neighbor types? Let's take a look at the 20th Century as a whole. How many people died in Europe during World War II? 40 million?

Look at the Western world today. They let in millions of foreigners, give charity to people around the world, condemn those who hate foreigners, are crazy about human rights, etc. Western countries are definitely peace loving, actually they're too peace loving.

No one is saying the altruism in western countries is genetic. So, I'm not talking about Europe in 1940s, I'm talking about Europe today. Everyone has capability for extreme violence. But, Western society today in 2016 has reached a point of basically a Utopian society. The chances of Germany and France ever going to war again are 0/10000. We might never see another war between western countries ever agian.

I don't understand these kinds of comparisons. Does anyone really think it's over for good, that we in western society have turned some sort of page?

Western society has definitely turned a page. We live in unprecedented wealth, peace, and entertainment.
 
Look at the Western world today. They let in millions of foreigners, give charity to people around the world, condemn those who hate foreigners, are crazy about human rights, etc. Western countries are definitely peace loving, actually they're too peace loving.

No one is saying the altruism in western countries is genetic. So, I'm not talking about Europe in 1940s, I'm talking about Europe today. Everyone has capability for extreme violence. But, Western society today in 2016 has reached a point of basically a Utopian society. The chances of Germany and France ever going to war again are 0/10000. We might never see another war between western countries ever agian.



Western society has definitely turned a page. We live in unprecedented wealth, peace, and entertainment.

You're dangerously naive, Fire-Haired. You may not be saying it's genetic. You may not constantly be interpreting and disseminating information to make invidious comparisons between whites and non-whites, between Europeans and African tribesmen, between western hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers, but others are; they've been doing it for years.

What happens if the wealth goes? Another depression or worse? What happens if more and more refugees flood into an impoverished Europe? Europeans thought World War I was going to be the war that ends all wars. There was another one in a generation. After WWII, I also believed that Europeans would never again descend to those depths. The Balkan War proved I was wrong. We have members of this Board who still justify it. Do I want it to happen? Of course not. You just never go wrong thinking the worst of people.

It need not be something that starts in the west, either. What if North Korea launches nuclear weapons, or Iran gets them and uses them? Do you think they care whether Europeans and Americans want peace? Do you know who Chamberlain was? He came back from Munich with a written guarantee from Hitler that he'd be satisfied with Czechoslovakia. Churchill was denounced and derided as a warmonger for saying it meant nothing. How did that go? It's like the, imo, idiotic unilateral disarmament movement in Europe in the 20th century. Yes, indeed, give up all your weapons and trust in the good will and peaceful intentions of other countries.

Lunacy.

@Tomenable,

Yes, I know. You've posted it about ten times. We get it.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
The chances of Germany and France ever going to war again are 0/10000.

But didn't people think like this also in the 1920s ???
 
Angela, you don't have to prove to me or anyone European countries fight each other. BTW, I'd rather be genetically violent than peaceful, so I have no stake in this. Japan is more peaceful than any European country. I'm not making this a white vs non-white thing. I'm just pointing out the obviousness that European countries right now are more peaceful than lots of tribal groups, and that it's because of culture/circumstance.

But didn't people think like this also in the 1920s ???

It's differnt this time :)
 
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