Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 82

Thread: A real life Stone Age battle

  1. #1
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    A real life Stone Age battle

    This is how battles could look like also in Mesolithic and Early Neolithic Europe:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BzqwOBneC4

    Papua New Guineans are currently at the Early Neolithic level of technology.

    =========================

    And here an article about the Neolithic transition in New Guinea:

    "Was Papua New Guinea an Early Agriculture Pioneer?":

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...riculture.html

  2. #2
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    If you watch the video, you will see that they fight in very loose formations.

    They would be totally unable to repulse a charge by PIE cavalry or chariots.

  3. #3
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This is how battles could look like also in Mesolithic and Early Neolithic Europe:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BzqwOBneC4

    Papua New Guineans are currently at the Early Neolithic level of technology.

    =========================

    And here an article about the Neolithic transition in New Guinea:

    "Was Papua New Guinea an Early Agriculture Pioneer?":

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...riculture.html
    Fascinating stuff. I don't know how much of that was warefare and how much was 50/50 lets kill each other/lets fight. I don't think the producers or whatever want to show lots of blood and dying people, so maybe this was the best they could do. Talk about imbetmising the "dumb savage". Holy crap.These are the type of people Spanish and British meet in America. And my history book is totally right to criticize them down for saying Native Americans were less civilized and savages. Yeah, British and Spanish just had their own interpretation of civilization, it wasn't any better :).

  4. #4
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,735


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If you watch the video, you will see that they fight in very loose formations.

    They would be totally unable to repulse a charge by PIE cavalry or chariots.
    What cavalry and chariots? Those didn't exist until long after the first PIE incursions. Do we really have to go over all those papers again?

    As for New Guinea, refresh my recollection, do they have copper metallurgy, cities, extensive trade etc? Is there anything similar to Tripolye culture? That's who the PIE people would have encountered, remember.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  5. #5
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What cavalry and chariots? Those didn't exist until long after the first PIE incursions. Do we really have to go over all those papers again?

    As for New Guinea, refresh my recollection, do they have copper metallurgy, cities, extensive trade etc? Is there anything similar to Tripolye culture? That's who the PIE people would have encountered, remember.
    What about Funnel Beaker? That's mostly who Corded Ware interacted with.

  6. #6
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,735


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Fascinating stuff. I don't know how much of that was warefare and how much was 50/50 lets kill each other/lets fight. I don't think the producers or whatever want to show lots of blood and dying people, so maybe this was the best they could do. Talk about imbetmising the "dumb savage". Holy crap.These are the type of people Spanish and British meet in America. And my history book is totally right to criticize them down for saying Native Americans were less civilized and savages. Yeah, British and Spanish just had their own interpretation of civilization, it wasn't any better :).
    It depends which Native Americans we're discussing, yes? There's a world of difference between the Aztec and Inca Empires with their agriculture, metallurgy, cities, monuments, astrologers etc., and the more simple cultures of the Caribbean and most of North America and the Amazon etc.

    Of course, the Aztecs combined a rather advanced civilization with a fierce warrior culture and human sacrifice. They were no match for "Guns, Germs and Steel", however.

    Have you read that book? You should, it's excellent, and explains a lot.

    I can also recommend two excellent movies about the encounter between Europeans and the "Native Americans". You can see the savagery on both sides. The score of "The Mission", by Ennio Morrione, is absolutely fabulous.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Robe_%28film%29

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mission_%281986_film%29

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS6bmm921G8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvWaD-NErlY



  7. #7
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    the Aztec and Inca Empires with their agriculture, metallurgy, cities, monuments, astrologers etc.
    The Aztecs and the Inca mostly had gold metallurgy, which was useless in warfare. Most of their weapons were quite similar to those used in the video from the OP. I know that they had copper, but it rather wasn't extensively used in warfare. So weapons would be quite similar. True - Aztec armies were better organized than those warriors from the video in the OP, but many of their enemies were not (which is why the Aztecs formed such an empire).

    Cities - granted, large fortified settlements could put up some resistance.

    I'm not sure if New Guineans have fortified settlements, but I suppose they do (because tribal warfare is very common).


    A fortified settlement (not very large, but overall structure is similar to Trypillian "cities"):



    Reconstructed Trypillian "cities" (or mega-villages - what defines a city?):

    [images moved to the post below, no need to post the same thing twice]
    Last edited by Tomenable; 27-02-16 at 14:15. Reason: double post

  8. #8
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,731


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    What about Funnel Beaker? That's mostly who Corded Ware interacted with.
    it is funny, DNA has shown most - if not all - of Funnel Beaker people were replaced by corded ware people

    yet there are no signs of violence between corded ware and neolithic people
    there are signs of violence between corded ware and HG in northeastern Europe, where there were no farmers

    archeology describes contacts between neolithic NW Europe and corded ware as 'friendly'

    it is an enigma

  9. #9
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,731


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What cavalry and chariots? Those didn't exist until long after the first PIE incursions. Do we really have to go over all those papers again?

    As for New Guinea, refresh my recollection, do they have copper metallurgy, cities, extensive trade etc? Is there anything similar to Tripolye culture? That's who the PIE people would have encountered, remember.
    PIE chariots, yes, cavalry no, that is for Asyrians or Scythians
    and the Chariots, they were invented by Sintashta, but the moment they had seen them, and got horses to pull them, the Asyrians and the Egyptians, the Chinese and the Seima-Turbino, and whoever else could, used them as well

    it strikes me that Indo-Iranians overpowered BMAC,
    but alltough they had horses and chariots and bronze weapons and they had known warfare at home, they left the cities and citadels of BMAC intact
    they were masters in the field, controlled the pastures, the farming land and the trade routes
    even the irrigation fields, of which those Indo-Iranians coming from the northern steppes knew nothing about, remained intact
    and the BMAC elite, they remained in their walled cities and citadels, powerless

  10. #10
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,731


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post



    The Aztecs and the Inca mostly had gold metallurgy, which was useless in warfare. Most of their weapons were quite similar to those used in the video from the OP. I know that they had copper, but it rather wasn't extensively used in warfare. So weapons would be quite similar. True - Aztec armies were better organized than those warriors from the video in the OP, but many of their enemies were not (which is why the Aztecs formed such an empire).

    Cities - granted, large fortified settlements could put up some resistance.

    did they have bronze or something similar, because pure copper weapons are useless as well ?

  11. #11
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Angela,

    What cavalry and chariots? Those didn't exist until long after the first PIE incursions.
    Didn't they already master horseback riding by that time (and probably used horses in wars)?

    BTW, I wasn't talking just about first PIE incursions, but about entire IE expansion, including Bell Beakers:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmHXBXG7Loo

    And as Bicicleur wrote, they did have chariots. Which played the same role as cavalry.

    As for New Guinea, refresh my recollection, do they have copper metallurgy
    Probably not (because the island lacks copper ores) but what difference would it make? Probably not so great a difference.

    There is some qualitative advantage, but Copper Age (Chalcolithic) weapons are not so much better than Neolithic ones.

    In fact, during the Copper Age most of weapons (blades / points) were still being made of stone, wood and bone, rather than of copper.

    Surely some axes (and spearpoints / arrowheads) were made of copper, but stone axes aren't so much worse than copper axes.

    cities
    Tripolye cities are often considered to be rather a kind of "mega-villages" (though it all depends on how one defines a city):





    extensive trade etc?
    Extensive trade does not count in battle, so it's irrelevant here. But they (New Guineans) have some trade for sure!

    For example - the video in the OP says, that New Guinean warriors are smoking cigarettes - they surely acquired them via trade.

    Is there anything similar to Tripolye culture? That's who the PIE people would have encountered, remember.
    Triploye culture was just in one region - what about e.g. Megalithic cultures in Western Europe? Very different.

    It depends which Native Americans we're discussing, yes?
    Here some good websites (you will see many similarities with the video in the OP):

    "New World Images from the 1500's":

    http://www.floridahistory.com/de-bry-plates/

    "DeSoto's Arkansas Trails":

    http://www.floridahistory.com/arkansab.html

    A Native American warrior:



    Native Americans attacking a fortified town of another tribe:

    "War before civilization": https://evolution-institute.org/blog...-civilization/



    And here some New Guineans again (war boats similar to Native American canoes):

    http://translate.google.com/translat...ockefellera%2F



    There's a world of difference between the Aztec and Inca Empires with their agriculture, metallurgy, cities, monuments, astrologers etc., and the more simple cultures of the Caribbean and most of North America and the Amazon etc.
    The Aztecs and the Incas did have metallurgy - but it was limited to gold, or to gold and copper. They did not have bronze, IIRC. And when it comes to copper, they rather didn't use it extensively in warfare. Gold is by definition useless in warfare - they produced other gold items, but not weapons. Their weapons were not that much different than, and not that much technologically superior to, those used by New Guineans, I think. The Aztec army was certainly very well organized, but many of their neighbours didn't have such disciplined armies (which is why the Aztecs conquered them).

    The score of "The Mission", by Ennio Morrione, is absolutely fabulous.
    Indeed - and the last battle scene shows that those Guarani Indians were using similar weapons as New Guineans:

    Last edited by Tomenable; 27-02-16 at 14:34. Reason: images of Tripolye cities fixed

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    PIE chariots, yes, cavalry no, that is for Asyrians or Scythians
    and the Chariots, they were invented by Sintashta, but the moment they had seen them, and got horses to pull them, the Asyrians and the Egyptians, the Chinese and the Seima-Turbino, and whoever else could, used them as well

    it strikes me that Indo-Iranians overpowered BMAC,
    but alltough they had horses and chariots and bronze weapons and they had known warfare at home, they left the cities and citadels of BMAC intact
    they were masters in the field, controlled the pastures, the farming land and the trade routes
    even the irrigation fields, of which those Indo-Iranians coming from the northern steppes knew nothing about, remained intact
    and the BMAC elite, they remained in their walled cities and citadels, powerless
    I don't know what kind of fantasy story you're talking about but BMAC was older than Sintashta, by hundreds of years.

    Everything what folks of Sintashta knew they learned from the Aryan BMAC folks. BMAC predates Sintashta...


    + War chariots were invented in the Near East, with disk / cross-bar wheels, later evolved into spoke-wheeled chariots ....

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    + How can BMAC be overpowered by Indo-Iranians, when the fact is that BMAC WAS Indo-Iranian? BMAC = East Iranid, period. Show me some evidence that BMAC was attacked from North! It was actually vice versa, some BMAC folks migrated into the Steppes, later on they were assimilated. Archeology, such as the Mesopotamian pottery in the Steppes etc. is showing that the Steppes were influenced by the Aryan culture of BMAC.

  14. #14
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    + How can BMAC be overpowered by Indo-Iranians, when the fact is that BMAC WAS Indo-Iranian? BMAC = East Iranid, period. Show me some evidence that BMAC was attacked from North! It was actually vice versa, some BMAC folks migrated into the Steppes, later on they were assimilated. Archeology, such as the Mesopotamian pottery in the Steppes etc. is showing that the Steppes were influenced by the Aryan culture of BMAC.
    Settle down man. No one thinks Middle Easterners are inferior. Indo Iranian languages came from Europe, it's not a big deal. The distant origin of your language isn't everything that your people are.

  15. #15
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,731


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    + How can BMAC be overpowered by Indo-Iranians, when the fact is that BMAC WAS Indo-Iranian? BMAC = East Iranid, period. Show me some evidence that BMAC was attacked from North! It was actually vice versa, some BMAC folks migrated into the Steppes, later on they were assimilated. Archeology, such as the Mesopotamian pottery in the Steppes etc. is showing that the Steppes were influenced by the Aryan culture of BMAC.
    Read the book, The horse, the wheel and the language by David Anthony, chapter 14, 15 and 16.
    I don't know any more detailed account than this.

    Oh, and we know who was on the steppe first, we have their DNA.

    And then, there is the linguistic evidence.

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Read the book, The horse, the wheel and the language by David Anthony, chapter 14, 15 and 16.
    I don't know any more detailed account than this.

    Oh, and we know who was on the steppe first, we have their DNA.

    And then, there is the linguistic evidence.
    That book is very bad written and it's more science fiction than Harry Potter books/stories.

    Of course we know who lived in the Steppes. Mongoloid/Europoid folks. That's not a secret. Look at the Russians. Look at their ancient bones. Those who live there lived always there. But that has nothing to do with the Aryans.


    DNA is saying that there was a migration from South into North.
    But those who migrated into north were assimilated and their DNA was heavily diluted by the locals.


    What linguistic evidences? Nobody in the Steppes speaks Indo-Aryan as their native language. Their languages has nothing to do with Avestan etc. Languages close to Avestan live on the Iranian Plateau...

  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Settle down man. No one thinks Middle Easterners are inferior. Indo Iranian languages came from Europe, it's not a big deal. The distant origin of your language isn't everything that your people are.
    My people speak an unique Aryan language close to Avestan that nobody speaks. Ancient Iranid/Mesopotamian religios books are written in that language.

    Nobody native to Europe has the same native language as my people. Iranid language was NEVER native to Europe. People in Europe has NOTHING to do with IRANID language. Iranid language was never part of Europe.

    Russian, Turkic or other languages of the Steppes are not even remotely as close as my nativelanguage to the ancient Aryan languages like Avestan.



    There is no evidence that proto-Indo-Iranian came from Europe at all.

    DNA is saying that there was a migration from the South into North. That's a fact. From Y-DNA to au-DNA.


    I know very well who my people are. Descendants of the mighty Medes, by culture (Iranid), race/DNA (Iranid, closely related to other Iranid people like Persians and Alanians), language (Iranid), religion (Iranid), homeland (Zagros has been native homeland of the Medes too, Iranid) etc. My people are from all view of points allround Iranid people.



    Settle down who are you people. Who are your people? Or don't you know who your people are? Otherwise you were never that confused...

  18. #18
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    did they have bronze or something similar, because pure copper weapons are useless as well ?
    I don't think pure copper weapons are useless (as long as they are axes, arrowheads or spearpoints - because copper swords would be useless indeed). They are just not so much better than stone ones. And when it comes to the Aztecs and the Incas - I may be wrong, but AFAIK they did not have bronze (only pure copper). Producing bronze requires mixing copper with tin, and I'm not sure if there even were tin ores in Mexico and in the Andean Region ??? Either they didn't have access to any tin at all, or just didn't figure out that it is good to mix it with copper. But the Aztecs did have very good stone - obsidian. They produced very sharp obsidian blades, which could even cut off a horse's head (not to mention an unarmoured human head).

    Bronze allowed the development of real swords. Copper could only be used to make daggers, axe blades, spearpoints, arrowheads.

    But during the Copper Age, copper surely was precious and expensive - so most of weapons were still made of other materials.

    For example, I would not waste my copper to make arrowheads, when I can use cheaper stone to make almost as good ones.

  19. #19
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    But the Aztecs did have very good stone - obsidian. They produced very sharp obsidian blades
    This two-bladed club with obsidian blades was the deadliest of Aztec close-combat weapons (link):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atEKhfxdA9A#t=5m52s

    =================================

    Aztec Jaguar warrior versus Zande warrior:

    The actual duel starts at 31:34 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atEKhfxdA9A#t=31m34s



    The Zande had iron weapons, unlike the Aztecs:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zande_...ing_knives.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zande_...tzel,_1898.jpg

  20. #20
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,735


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Tomenable,

    Your interest seems to be mainly Corded Ware. In that regard, the point is that the Corded Ware people didn't have bronze weapons either, not until the very end of the Corded Ware period. All they had was copper, and not very much of that either. Neither did they have "cavalry" or mounted warriors; that's a much later development, which required the invention of the stirrup. As has been pointed out, chariots were invented a thousand years later and far to the east.

    We've discussed all of this numerous times, with all the relevant citations. You can find them through the search engine if you didn't save them. As Bicicleur has pointed out, there isn't even evidence of much violent conflict as far as the advance of Corded Ware is concerned.

    You can't transpose technology into different time periods and locations. Whatever happened in central Europe had very little to do with a large advantage in weapons technology, other than the horse giving them more mobility.

    The New World encounter is a totally different thing altogether. The Europeans not only had steel in terms of swords, they had guns and even canon for goodness' sakes. This was hardly a "fair fight". Then add in mass epidemics and it was over.

  21. #21
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Neither did they have "cavalry" or mounted warriors; that's a much later development, which required the invention of the stirrup.
    Angela, there was pre-stirrup cavalry as well. Stirrups were invented very late, only in Late Antiquity.

    Hannibal's famous cavalry at Cannae (which encircled the Romans) didn't have stirrups. Parthian Cataphracts at Carrhae didn't have stirrups. Native Americans at Little Big Horn didn't have stirrups either, yet they were excellent mounted warriors. Cavalry doesn't need stirrups. Stirrups increase stability in saddle (reducing the risk of getting unhorsed), but they are not indispensable.

    The use of various types of cavalry in warfare long predated (by centuries or millennia) the invention of the stirrup.

    The New World encounter is a totally different thing altogether. The Europeans not only had steel in terms of swords, they had guns and even canon for goodness' sakes.
    They also had cavalry, which was crucial for Spanish victory over the Aztecs (more so than guns, since Cortes didn't have many of them). The Spanish force under Hernan Cortes which attacked the Aztec Empire, had just as many crossbows as guns.

    But the majority of Spanish soldiers under Cortes, actually fought with swords and shields. According to a book by R. Tomicki, "Tenochtitlan 1521" ("Historical Battles" series), at the beginning of the siege of Tenochtitlan, the Spanish army comprised:

    Rodeleros ------- ca. 70%
    Cavalrymen ----- ca. 10%
    Gunmen --------- ca. 10%
    Crossbowmen --- ca. 10%


    Rodeleros fought as close-combat heavily armoured infantry, using swords and round shields (bucklers):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodeleros

    They were the "backbone" of the Spanish force. And of course there were thousands of Native Mexican allies.

    Here I wrote more about this:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post465691

    As for the Aztecs - their weapons comprised (according to Tomicki's Polish-language book mentioned above):

    Offensive arsenal of Aztec warriors included a javelin-thrower (atlatl), a spear (tepuztopilli), a trident (tlatzontectli), a wooden club (or "club-sword"), edges of which had blades made of obsidian (macuahuitl) as well as its larger version, a two-handed sword (macuahuitzoctli), a mace (cuauhololli), a sling (tematlatl), a kind of a long pike, and a bow (tlahuitolli) with arrows.

    Aztec spearheads and arrowheads were made of st
    one (obsidian, etc.), bone or fishbones.

    Especially dangerous were Aztec swords - macuahuitl and macuahuitzoctli - which could cut off a head.

    Initially the Aztecs were terribly afraid of horses but later on they learned how to try fighting cavalry, using long pikes.

    Defensive arsenal of Aztec warriors included a round shield (chimalli), which was so strong that it could sometimes even protect against crossbows, ichcahuipilli (a gambeson or a leather armour) - according to Spanish accounts it was hard to pierce it with a sword. They were also wearing coats or capes called ehuatl, as well as painted helmets made of wood and shaped to resemble heads of snakes, eagles or jaguars, and also animal skins. There were some differences in clothes - depending on status and rank of warriors.

    Tenochtitlan had a standing army of regulars numbering 10,000 "Brave People". In wartime they formed elite units or were officers leading levy units. Military training for each Aztec man in schools called telpochcalli was compulsory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Then add in mass epidemics and it was over.
    Well, Indo-European expansions were also supported by yersinia pestis, and by epidemic diseases that it caused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    there isn't even evidence of much violent conflict as far as the advance of Corded Ware is concerned.
    Times when Corded Ware peoples advanced into Scandinavia are known as "the age of crushed skulls":

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded...le_Axe_culture

    This does not sound like a very peaceful time.

  22. #22
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,731


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    Times when Corded Ware peoples advanced into Scandinavia are known as "the age of crushed skulls":

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded...le_Axe_culture

    This does not sound like a very peaceful time.
    While Swedish writer Herman Lindqvist has referred to this as the "Age of crushed skulls", there is no indication that this was an especially violent time, and most of the "crushing" happened post-mortem in the ground.[dubiousdiscuss] The "battle-axes" were primarily a status object. There are strong continuities in stone craft traditions, and very little evidence of any type of full-scale migration, least of all a violent one.

    DNA has proven large migrations and replacement though.

  23. #23
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Bicicleur,

    [Dubious - discuss] means that the statement is unsourced, so those claims to the contrary remain unsupported.

    Wikipedia tends to be edited by people who reject sweeping migrations and prefer "Paleolithic continuity theories".

    An average wikipedia contributor is similar to Goga.

  24. #24
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,735


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    I don't care how many warriors the Aztecs had or how good they were; there's no way they could have competed against steel swords, guns, canon, and disease. This is not an appropriate comparison.

    The warfare to which you're referring in Europe is not in Central Europe, it's in the far northeast. (see Bicicleur's post) You were discussing what happened in central Europe when partly steppe descended PIE speaking peoples came into contact with MN farming cultures.

    I haven't yet seen anything to indicate that these people at that time, and in that place, had bronze weapons. They did have horses, although not many have been found for early periods. Perhaps they rode them. However, I've read the literature for years, including David Anthony. Nowhere have I seen any proof that they were using the horses for mounted warfare. I don't consider, well, they could have, to be scientific proof. Nor am I aware of anything in the archaeological record indicating large scale warfare in central Europe. That doesn't mean there wasn't a large influx of new people.

    They did have an advantage in that the horses gave them added mobility. Their subsistence strategy was no doubt more advantageous given the change in the climate. The plague they carried may have preceded them by a number of years; it can travel in food packs, trade items like furs etc., as we know from the Middle Ages and the disease epidemics which ravaged the Native Americans. The population in Central Europe seems to have undergone various boom and bust cycles dependent on soil depletion, erosion, climate change etc. It may have been a perfect storm for central Europe, as the Bronze Age Collapse was a perfect storm for the palatial civilizations of the Aegean in particular but also to some degree for the Near East. That's not to say there wasn't some violence, of course.

    We have plenty of factors to consider. My only objection is that you are proposing a mythic, simplified version of events which conflates events from distant times and places and which isn't supported by any real evidence.

  25. #25
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    I don't care how many warriors the Aztecs had or how good they were; there's no way they could have competed against steel swords, guns, canon, and disease. This is not an appropriate comparison.
    In fact what really doomed the Aztecs was their oppressive rule over neighbours.

    A lot of warriors from other tribes joined the Spaniards in their fight against the Aztecs.

    The Aztecs came close to totally destroying Cortes and his army after "La Noche Triste".

    Subsequent Spanish victory would have been impossible without Native support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Nowhere have I seen any proof that they were using the horses for mounted warfare.
    But what kind of evidence supporting this notion do you expect to show up ???

    Assuming they were using horses for mounted warfare, what proofs should we find?

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •