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Thread: DNA of Viking rulers of Normandy coming in autumn

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    Arrow DNA of Viking rulers of Normandy coming in autumn

    Just saw this in the news: Was Viking ruler Rollo Danish or Norwegian?

    Rollo was the founder and first ruler of Normandy, the Count of Rouen and the great-great-great grandfather of William the Conqueror, the first Norman King of England. While Norwegian-Icelandic history holds that Rollo is the same man also known as Ganger Hrólf and hails from Norway, some Danish historians claim that Rollo is from Denmark.

    In January, French officials granted a Norwegian application to open the tomb of Rollo’s grandson and great-grandson, Richard I of Normandy (also known as Richard the Fearless) and Richard II, also called Richard the Good.

    When researchers opened the tomb, a sarcophagus in the floor of a Fécamp monastery, on Monday they found Richard the Good’s lower jaw with eight teeth. A DNA analysis is likely to be completed by the autumn and will be presented in cooperation with the French authorities.
    This means that we should get the Y-DNA haplogroup of the Viking rulers of Normandy, from Rollo to William the Conqueror. Looking forward to it.
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    What is the most likely candidate? I1, U106, Z284? Anything else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Just saw this in the news: Was Viking ruler Rollo Danish or Norwegian?



    This means that we should get the Y-DNA haplogroup of the Viking rulers of Normandy, from Rollo to William the Conqueror. Looking forward to it.
    he is a site , for whats its worth that states Rollo line to be R-P312

    http://originhunters.blogspot.com.au...leads-way.html
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    he is a site , for whats its worth that states Rollo line to be R-P312

    http://originhunters.blogspot.com.au...leads-way.html
    It would be interesting to know the way they took to state that all those lines are related documentally. They can't begin with surnames...surnames are susceptible to change in time and space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    he is a site , for whats its worth that states Rollo line to be R-P312

    http://originhunters.blogspot.com.au...leads-way.html
    R is very frequent (maybe not P312 as such) in both Denmark and Norway so it will not be a surprise.

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    If they want to know where was Richard I from, they must also test his autosomal DNA - that's essential too.

    As for Y-DNA, there is a thing called "Non-Paternity Event" (cheating wife, etc.) which could happen to one of Rollo's descendants.

    If Richard I was really P312 then it is essential to determine what subclade it was. If this subclade turns out to be Scandinavian-specific then OK, but if it turns out to be Non-Scandinavian then it will most likely mean that between Rollo and Richard there was a Non-Paternity Event and Richard I was in fact not Rollo's biological descendant - consequently it will mean that William the Conqueror was also not Rollo's biological descendant.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If they want to know where was Richard I from, they must also test his autosomal DNA - that's essential too. As for Y-DNA, there is a thing called "Non-Paternity Event" (cheating wife, etc.) which could happen to one of Rollo's descendants. If Richard I was really P312 then it is essential to determine what subclade it was. If this subclade turns out to be Scandinavian-specific then OK, but if it turns out to be Non-Scandinavian then it will most likely mean that between Rollo and Richard there was a Non-Paternity Event and Richard I was in fact not Rollo's biological descendant - consequently it will mean that William the Conqueror was also not Rollo's biological descendant.
    The NPE event rate is a very tiny percentage. If Richard I is really R-P312, then I would see it confirmed by the documental reconstructed genealogical tree of all the lines tested in that blogger's page. If, and I underline if, it is possible to see clearly when the lines branched (I doubt it, because at that time is nearly impossible to have many documental sources), then we can rule out or not a Y-DNA haplogroup.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Isn't the NPE rate 1% per generation? We're talking an awful lot of generations since Rollo's time.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-pa..._single_births

    Look at the situation with Richard of York. He was G2a. The living descendants of his ancestor Edward I are different varieties of R1b. It's only speculation as to where the NPEs occurred, but obviously some did occur.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    What is the most likely candidate? I1, U106, Z284? Anything else?
    I2a2 is also high in Scandinavia, although it is low in Normandy. However R1a is even lower in Normandy. Both I2a2a and R1a are not especially high in southern England either, so I1 or R1b are statistically more likely. But who knows, it could very well be a rarer Scandinavian lineage like Q1a, G2a, E1b1b or J2. Unlike relatively pure Mesolithic, Neolithic and EBA Steppe cultures, there is no way to logically deduce Rollo's Y-DNA beyond that.

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    It will be I1 or N1c.

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    I'm not sure what it will be. I have heard he was from Norway, or Denmark, does anyone know which country is correct?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    the new Ydna predictor for Rollo gives

    Haplogroup Probability Fitness
    1 R1b L21>DF13>Z39589>DF41 52.17 99.77
    2 R1b DF27>Z196>L176.2 15.88 95.87

    with the STR supplied

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the new Ydna predictor for Rollo gives

    Haplogroup Probability Fitness
    1 R1b L21>DF13>Z39589>DF41 52.17 99.77
    2 R1b DF27>Z196>L176.2 15.88 95.87

    with the STR supplied
    Both haplogroups are quite unlikely for a 9th century Viking. R1b-L21 was almost certainly brought to Scandinavia from the British Isles by the Vikings, so it is not a native Viking haplogroup. L176.2 is mostly French and Spanish. Both haplogroups could have been native to Normandy before the Viking invasions.

    R1b is the most likely haplogroup for Rollo's lineage, but only R1b-U106, R1b-L238 or possibly even R1b-U152 (considering that the Proto-Celts mixed to some extent with the Proto-Germanics in Germany before they moved to Scandinavia in the Bronze Age).

    Despite the higher statistical likelihood for R1b, my hunch is that Rollo's line will be I1, and if so then I1-L22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Isn't the NPE rate 1% per generation? We're talking an awful lot of generations since Rollo's time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-pa..._single_births Look at the situation with Richard of York. He was G2a. The living descendants of his ancestor Edward I are different varieties of R1b. It's only speculation as to where the NPEs occurred, but obviously some did occur.
    Obviously it occurred but, as I stated before, we have a rich documental source about the kings of England, then why not test other branches and ancient remains?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Both haplogroups are quite unlikely for a 9th century Viking. R1b-L21 was almost certainly brought to Scandinavia from the British Isles by the Vikings, so it is not a native Viking haplogroup. L176.2 is mostly French and Spanish. Both haplogroups could have been native to Normandy before the Viking invasions.
    I am not as sure as you R1b-L21 could not have been in Western Scandinavia before Vikings raids in the Great isles. Not an affirmation, only a doubt. I think possible some kind proto-Celts put their feet in Scandinavia at bronze Age. Only old DNA can answer us, even if at first sight your answer seems very reasonable.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo


    The 13th century
    Icelandicsagas, Heimskringla and Orkneyinga Saga, remember him as Hrólf the Walker ("who was so big that no horsecould carry him", hence his byname of Ganger-Hrólf
    So Jotun ancestry :)

    (j/k)

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    Nothing yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Degredado View Post
    Nothing yet?
    Propably re-testing again and again.

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    Bump.

    Any news?

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    What the hell are they doing, a year ?? maybe they failed

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    After testing the age of the teeth and bones scientists realized they could not belong to Rollo's grandson and great grandson. I think one of the bones tested 2000 years old. So we won't know anytime soon what their haplogroups were.

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    My paternal ancestry is Norman.


    My Y-DNA Haplogroup is J2a1h2a1 [J2-L70 (J2-L397, J2-L398)]


    My Paternal Ancestry:


    I'm a direct male descendant of Daniel "The Huguenot" Perrin. All documented. Search his name and you can find a genealogy book one of my relatives wrote in 1910. TheIslandWiki website has our genealogy too.

    I'm currently going through the book "Armorial of Jersey" written by James Bertrand Payne in 1859 documenting the families and genealogies of these families. My family is in there, but still making all the connections. I've only been studying my family history for a few months now. I think Jersey released new documents. I'm hoping to make further connections in due time.

    This is as far back I can go currently with documented proof.

    Comte Du Perrin
    Pierre Perrin
    Daniel Perrin "The Huguenot"
    Henry Perrin
    John Perrine
    Peter Perrine
    James Mount Perrine
    Isaac H. Perrine
    Raymond Ely Perrine (Great Grandfather)
    Lyman Perrine (My Grandfather)
    Lyman Eric Perrine (My Father)
    Lyman Eric Perrine Jr (Me)


    He was one of the first European Settlers in New York. 1665.
    He came from the Isle of Jersey and is of Norman/French ancestry.
    My family was Seigneurs of Guernsey and Rozel.
    My ancestors were also Knights that helped William the Conqueror take the throne.


    It's possible my J2 comes from the French(Frank) part of my ancestry. Hard to determine the further back you go. In every reference to my ancestors though they are described as Normans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leperrine View Post
    My paternal ancestry is Norman.


    My Y-DNA Haplogroup is J2a1h2a1 [J2-L70 (J2-L397, J2-L398)]


    My Paternal Ancestry:


    I'm a direct male descendant of Daniel "The Huguenot" Perrin. All documented. Search his name and you can find a genealogy book one of my relatives wrote in 1910. TheIslandWiki website has our genealogy too.

    I'm currently going through the book "Armorial of Jersey" written by James Bertrand Payne in 1859 documenting the families and genealogies of these families. My family is in there, but still making all the connections. I've only been studying my family history for a few months now. I think Jersey released new documents. I'm hoping to make further connections in due time.

    This is as far back I can go currently with documented proof.

    Comte Du Perrin
    Pierre Perrin
    Daniel Perrin "The Huguenot"
    Henry Perrin
    John Perrine
    Peter Perrine
    James Mount Perrine
    Isaac H. Perrine
    Raymond Ely Perrine (Great Grandfather)
    Lyman Perrine (My Grandfather)
    Lyman Eric Perrine (My Father)
    Lyman Eric Perrine Jr (Me)


    He was one of the first European Settlers in New York. 1665.
    He came from the Isle of Jersey and is of Norman/French ancestry.
    My family was Seigneurs of Guernsey and Rozel.
    My ancestors were also Knights that helped William the Conqueror take the throne.


    It's possible my J2 comes from the French(Frank) part of my ancestry. Hard to determine the further back you go. In every reference to my ancestors though they are described as Normans.
    Have you some French Norman cousins with your autosomal DNA? Did you try Gedmatch ?

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    Have we come any closer to discovering the answer to this question? R-P312 could make sense if this subclade was in fact distributed by the Bell Beaker Culture. I am downstream from this subclade, and my oral family history states that our most distant known paternal ancestor came to Scotland from Denmark. Further and deeper testing of these ancient and near-ancient samples would go a long way to elucidating our true origins.

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    Rollo was said to be a tall heavy man that no horse could not carry. I'm going with haplogroup I.

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