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View Poll Results: Pick a president.

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  • Hillary Clinton

    13 23.21%
  • Bernie Sanders

    12 21.43%
  • Ted Cruz

    3 5.36%
  • Marco Rubio

    4 7.14%
  • Donald Trump

    24 42.86%
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Thread: Vote for a president of USA. 2016 election.

  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I like them too. :) They tell you a lot more than the graphics that just show the final apportionment by state. (Here's the direct link to the map so you can see it all more clearly.)

    See:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...agewon.svg.png

    New York State is a perfect example. It went for Clinton by 18 points, I think, but look at the red in what we call the upstate areas. That's "rust belt" country, more like Ohio than like New York City or Long Island. What's the blue blob? Albany County, heavily minority, and also an old time Democratic machine that's been in power for over 100 years. Or, look at Florida. South east Florida, heavily Jewish and black and Hispanic, went Clinton, but the Cuban-American vote, very middle and upper class, and low turnout by blacks kept the margins for her too low. Along the all important I-4 corridor, looks like she got Orlando, which is heavily Puerto Rican, and Hillsborough, which is Tampa, with its large African American population, but the rest went red, especially the areas with big military bases and closer to "southern" states.

    The operatives are drilling down into these numbers in order to understand precisely what went on. They know who voted now, in what precincts, of what party affiliation.

    @Twilight,
    I've only been there once so I may well be wrong, but don't the Cascades separate farming and ranching areas from more urban areas?

    Just a general word about the electoral college. I don't like it myself, but it's here to stay according to virtually everyone I've ever heard discuss it, as it's part of the Constitution. To change it would require a 2/3 vote in both chambers of Congress, plus the approval of the President, plus approval of 3/4 of the state legislatures. The smaller or less populous states and their representatives in Congress are never going to give up that much power.

    The founders meant to insure that smaller states would not be overwhelmed by larger ones. That's why they set up a federal system.

    Of course, as others have pointed out, everybody knows the rules going in, and all their planning is based on the Electoral College.

    As to whether this is a "sweeping" victory or not, as Tomenable said, we have to look at the broader picture. This is the first time in a very long time that one party will have control of the Presidency and both houses of Congress. Add to that the fact that the vast majority of state legislatures and governors of states are also Republican. Even in terms of the electoral college it could turn out to be a massive victory, with Trump ultimately getting over 300 electoral votes.

    However, the fact remains that this is a deeply divided country. Clinton did get slightly more of the popular vote in terms of percentages. Most importantly, those electoral college wins by state were also by the thinnest of margins in a lot of cases. Plus, if anyone thinks that Trump and the Republicans in the Congress are on the same page, they should think again. I honestly don't know what Trump believes in a lot of cases, but he was a Democrat until three years ago, so that should tell you something. He's no Paul Ryan.
    I'm not a fan of a single party taking it all, I support a subset of policies and ideals from both political parties. And this may sound strange coming out of me, but since he was democratic a few years ago, he may find himself falling back to his old democratic ways every now and then; and with that in mind I'm a lot less worried about him being president.

    And I'm less inclined to believe he's going to be a rehash of dubya.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

  2. #902
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I agree with Minty,

    Typical Trump voters were middle class people, and not some "rednecks" as LeBrok claimed. I have been reading a Polish forum where two American guys post, and they are upper-middle class Trump supporters who live in sub-urban areas (one lives in California, not sure about the other one). They support Trump for similar reasons as Minty's relatives. They do not want to pay high taxes, they do not want to feed the growing underclass. I can also add based on what they wrote, that they simply do not associate with people such as Hillary supporters. They don't feel absolutely any ties with them, other than sharing space on the same continent. That guy from California wrote that probably the vast majority of people who live in "Real American neighbourhoods" voted for Trump. He wrote that there are two main indicators which define these "Real American" neighbourhoods":

    1) The Graffiti Factor = no graffiti within few miles from your house; 2) The Well-Maintained Lawn Factor = perfect backyards.



    But in America the middle class actually is kind of super rich. These are not mutually exclusive categories there.

    According to that guy from California, "middle class" people like him can afford very big "haciendas", a private yacht, and sometimes even a private light aircraft. And he wrote that people from "Real American neighbourhoods" would support building a wall not only along the border with Mexico, but also around "nests of degeneracy" - as he called San Francisco and Los Angeles. One excerpt from his posts (translated):

    "(...) we, by all means normal American people, treat these nests of degeneracy / vice such as SF, LA, Denver, or Seattle like some curious types of zoological gardens, inhabited by large numbers of weird and very exotic creatures. It is only a matter of time, until we build high fences around these cities... and start demanding visas from people living inside, in case if any of them would like to move to our side of the fence. Many of you probably remember movies like this made in Hollywood itself, which were very popular circa 25 years ago. (...)"

    I must admit that this actually sounds scary, especially considering that this guy has a PhD degree.

    What made these people so pissed off? They probably have more than enough of the regressive left and of excessive PC.
    Are you playing some sort of game, being deliberately provocative, or are you just very uncritical of what you read? Please don't believe everything said by anonymous posters on the internet. This guy sounds like an absolute nutcase. Is he posting in Polish? Are you even sure he's actually an American citizen or how long he's lived here?

    From my perspective he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. I actually doubt he lives here at all. Yes, "middle class" is an amorphous category in the U.S., but it sure as hell doesn't include people who have yachts or private aircraft. Is he on drugs? It doesn't even include people who belong to country clubs or gated communities. That's an extremely small percentage of the population.

    Middle class people are "struggling"; they're not rich. Someone posted the break down by income. People making over 200,000 a year voted proportionately more for Clinton than for Trump. It makes sense when you think about it; people in that income bracket don't care all that much about a tax increase of a few percent. People with three kids and a family income (both husband and wife working full time) of 60,000-70,000 a year living in very expensive urban areas are not rolling in the lap of luxury.

    As for his no graffiti and beautiful lawns scenario, I've lived in those kinds of neighborhoods for a long time, and I've never, ever heard anyone espouse these kinds of views. If you're going to ask me if the white America that lives in those kinds of neighborhoods has anything at all to do with totally dysfunctional inner city ghetto life, of course they don't. That doesn't mean many of them don't have compassion for them. They certainly don't want to actually ghetto-ize them. This is just nonsense.

    Let me give you a concrete example on the chance that you're being sincere. One of the big questions was how would the upper class suburbs, like those outside of Pennsylvania, break? I'm talking about suburbs like Chester County and Bucks County. I know those counties, and the type of people who live there. Just google those names and homes to see what kind of life style they live. Then look at the Clinton vs Trump votes in those counties. Clinton won; by bigger margins in Chester (even though there are more registered Republicans than Democrats) than in Bucks, but she still won in both. Now, some of that is because they do have a tiny minority population in the towns, and a good deal more is because of white, college educated women, but still...

    http://www.politico.com/2016-electio.../pennsylvania/

    Do you see how wrong he is?

    See also:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheste...,_Pennsylvania
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucks_...,_Pennsylvania


    Ed. As more results are analyzed it seems that one story doesn't fit all of the states. In Pennsylvania it was a rural/urban-suburban split as well as low turnout in African-American areas. In the upper mid-west it was largely the same way, with some union members going Republican for the first time. In Florida, the Hispanic vote did go up and tallies in Miami-Dade were indeed higher than for Obama, so African-Americans went out, but the suburbs/exurbs had a white surge. In Nevada the Hispanic surge turned it for Clinton.
    Last edited by Angela; 11-11-16 at 00:03.


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  3. #903
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I like them too. :) They tell you a lot more than the graphics that just show the final apportionment by state. (Here's the direct link to the map so you can see it all more clearly.)

    See:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...agewon.svg.png

    New York State is a perfect example. It went for Clinton by 18 points, I think, but look at the red in what we call the upstate areas. That's "rust belt" country, more like Ohio than like New York City or Long Island. What's the blue blob? Albany County, heavily minority, and also an old time Democratic machine that's been in power for over 100 years. Or, look at Florida. South east Florida, heavily Jewish and black and Hispanic, went Clinton, but the Cuban-American vote, very middle and upper class, and low turnout by blacks kept the margins for her too low. Along the all important I-4 corridor, looks like she got Orlando, which is heavily Puerto Rican, and Hillsborough, which is Tampa, with its large African American population, but the rest went red, especially the areas with big military bases and closer to "southern" states.

    The operatives are drilling down into these numbers in order to understand precisely what went on. They know who voted now, in what precincts, of what party affiliation.

    @Twilight,
    I've only been there once so I may well be wrong, but don't the Cascades separate farming and ranching areas from more urban areas?

    Just a general word about the electoral college. I don't like it myself, but it's here to stay according to virtually everyone I've ever heard discuss it, as it's part of the Constitution. To change it would require a 2/3 vote in both chambers of Congress, plus the approval of the President, plus approval of 3/4 of the state legislatures. The smaller or less populous states and their representatives in Congress are never going to give up that much power.

    The founders meant to insure that smaller states would not be overwhelmed by larger ones. That's why they set up a federal system.

    Of course, as others have pointed out, everybody knows the rules going in, and all their planning is based on the Electoral College.

    As to whether this is a "sweeping" victory or not, as Tomenable said, we have to look at the broader picture. This is the first time in a very long time that one party will have control of the Presidency and both houses of Congress. Add to that the fact that the vast majority of state legislatures and governors of states are also Republican. Even in terms of the electoral college it could turn out to be a massive victory, with Trump ultimately getting over 300 electoral votes.

    However, the fact remains that this is a deeply divided country. Clinton did get slightly more of the popular vote in terms of percentages. Most importantly, those electoral college wins by state were also by the thinnest of margins in a lot of cases. Plus, if anyone thinks that Trump and the Republicans in the Congress are on the same page, they should think again. I honestly don't know what Trump believes in a lot of cases, but he was a Democrat until three years ago, so that should tell you something. He's no Paul Ryan.
    Good point, Idk Good luck for Trump in unifying the country. He's gonna need it, just goes to show how much work is cut out for him.

  4. #904
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    I think France will follow,
    Next Francais president I believe is Le Pen,

    considering also the Brexit
    I see the days of neo-laissez-fair over,
    time to return to ethnic-national states by citizens for citizens and not for states for bankers, fortune hunters, golden boys and corporations,

    I wish Trump to stop TTIP and globalization, and bring back the lost industry to some US states that suffer from unemployment like Detroit or other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I think France will follow,
    Next Francais president I believe is Le Pen,

    considering also the Brexit
    I see the days of neo-laissez-fair over,
    time to return to ethnic-national states by citizens for citizens and not for states for bankers, fortune hunters, golden boys and corporations,

    I wish Trump to stop TTIP and globalization, and bring back the lost industry to some US states that suffer from unemployment like Detroit or other.
    in 2017 there are elections in the Netherlands too 'Trumps nephew' Geert Wilders (party called PVV) is leading in the polls now.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders

    see this poll: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinio...election,_2017

  6. #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    futures are down 700 points
    Right so, the bond market is extremely important to watch.

    Almost unnoticed publicly, on Friday September 9th 2016 all major bond yields suddenly rose all in concert by an amount which I never saw before (me amateurishly observing yields for two years).
    At the same day, Deutsche Bank announced that "the 35-year party is over for bond bulls". Since that day, government bond yields of all developed countries kept rising to this day (regardless that some of them are still in negative territory). Today it was accelerating drastically, so apparently bonds are reacting to the Trump election. A bond sell-off usually happens many times faster than 35-years. If this trend continues or even accelerates, there is a probability that significant worsening or even default may happen during Donald Trump's presidency. He would probably be blamed as suggested by that one famous "Simpsons" episode from year 2000, and the public will ignore the fact that his predecessors were the ones creating that debt bubble, in particular Obama who had doubled it. I don't want to defend Trump too much in advance, but he might be the political effect of subtle yet big economic changes, as someone else here correctly suggested (Laberia?). Then he would be blamed like the Brexit. That's just one hypothetical scenario.
    There are interesting theories about why politics follows economy, not the other way round ("charts causing events").

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I think France will follow,
    Next Francais president I believe is Le Pen,

    considering also the Brexit
    I see the days of neo-laissez-fair over,
    time to return to ethnic-national states by citizens for citizens and not for states for bankers, fortune hunters, golden boys and corporations,

    I wish Trump to stop TTIP and globalization, and bring back the lost industry to some US states that suffer from unemployment like Detroit or other.
    Think again:
    Mr. Trump is likely to seek vast cuts in regulations across the banking, health care and energy industries.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/bu...ions.html?_r=0

    I have few friends who subscribe to concpiracy theories that everything is pulled by strings by establishemnt from above. They are happy Trump won, they want changes and believe he will fix the rigged world.
    They are going to be very disappointed after 4 years of Trump, you Mr Yetos, will be too. What Trump represents is not a change for new and improved world, but for same old crap, that you know yourself, didn't work good in first place.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  8. #908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    in 2017 there are elections in the Netherlands too 'Trumps nephew' Geert Wilders (party called PVV) is leading in the polls now.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders

    see this poll: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinio...election,_2017
    Sorry to hear that. I think what we see now is the temporary swing towards conservatism. Mostly voted for by older generation and rural areas. Why is that?
    These are the demographics who couldn't keep up with all the modern changes. For last few decades people were exposed to fast pace changes. Changes in social acceptance of gays, open global village, races mingling, big technological changes in communication and interacting with the world and ideas, exposure to new religions and cultures, etc. And of course the rise of radical and militant Islam, and terrorist attacks in the West, and big migration, didn't help either. Many people got scared of this new world, and this caused people to retract to their conservative side. It means sticking to what they know the best, sticking to their own kind and culture, build walls, close the borders, hid in their "cocoons" of what they know and trust.

    Progress or let's say changes, don't go in linear manner in one direction, but rather in cyclical, wave like pattern. We can also describe it as a seesaw effect. In US, the progress or road to the future, fluctuates between conservatives and democrats winning elections. After 4-8 years of democrats we usually see 4-8 years of conservatives, and vice versa. It worked almost like clockwork through centuries. This time however it came with a twist in shape of Donald Trump, managing to wake up true conservative electorate. A big pull back this time. Trump managed to steer up all the fears, all the fears the true conservatives people had about the new world. He is a promoter and salesman after all. He can sell well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Right so, the bond market is extremely important to watch.

    Almost unnoticed publicly, on Friday September 9th 2016 all major bond yields suddenly rose all in concert by an amount which I never saw before (me amateurishly observing yields for two years).
    At the same day, Deutsche Bank announced that "the 35-year party is over for bond bulls".
    I don't know much about bond, and never bought one yet. I heard that due to Trump economic program there will be tax cuts and 1 trillion in infrastructure spending. This will increase inflation and economy grow, this will make feds to raise interest rate, and this in turn will help bonds.
    One thing is weird though this time. Usually when bonds go up, stock market goes down. In contrary manner, they both are going up for couple of days now.
    There are interesting theories about why politics follows economy, not the other way round ("charts causing events").[/QUOTE]I'm not sure about this. On political news of Hillary most likely winning election, stock market was going up for couple of days, till...Trump won. First effect of this new political event was a big sell off on stock market. Till economists analyzed Trump plan and assumed that he won't destroy economy too quickly, for a year at least, and instead will pour money into infrastructure and will do tax cuts, all good for economy in short term. Stock market doesn't think long term, doesn't predict events farther than one year. But it is based on real world events, real world economy and businesses, and major events like wars and big terrorist attacks. However on occasions stock market can influance real world, like dot.com crash in year 2000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    popular vote does not count in any nation I know of, there is a system created in every nation which determines a government. A Popular vote system is bad, it would mean farmers and people outside of the major cities would never have a say.

    Yes , Clinton was crushed on 289 to 222 ................and the worst part is that ALL propaganda , 100% of Media , reporters etc etc where ALL against him...........he still won.

    When have ever do you see this saturation of news , reporting etc against someone and that someone wins is the astonishing part.
    This says the people hate the current political system and unless there is a complete change it will keeping happening



    I am not American, I do not like Trump , never have.........yet I would also have voted for him, just to destroy the corrupt system of the USA government. they have been bad since early 2000
    Further thinking on this and I think the Trump victory was the most decisive, lop-sided victory by any person for the presidency of USA..........imagine how many more votes he would have got if he had support of 50% of the media!
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    popular vote does not count in any nation I know of, there is a system created in every nation which determines a government. A Popular vote system is bad, it would mean farmers and people outside of the major cities would never have a say.

    Yes , Clinton was crushed on 289 to 222 ................and the worst part is that ALL propaganda , 100% of Media , reporters etc etc where ALL against him...........he still won.

    When have ever do you see this saturation of news , reporting etc against someone and that someone wins is the astonishing part.
    This says the people hate the current political system and unless there is a complete change it will keeping happening



    I am not American, I do not like Trump , never have.........yet I would also have voted for him, just to destroy the corrupt system of the USA government. they have been bad since early 2000
    Never heard of proportional representations? Lots of words and analysis to justify a bogus crush . Hillary: 59,236,903 votes Donald: 59,085,787 votes is not a crush irrelevant to how you would have voted if you could ;). Re Media being mostly against Trump is true and he pulled through against all odds (same as Brexit vote) has a very clear message one way or another, but its not a crush result.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The silent majority won in USA,that silent majority is being underestimated in every country throughout the world as we have seen recently and those that lost should deal with it and accept this people.
    Repeating the same words such is racist,xenophobic etc seem not to help.
    I haven't followed much of this elections,but everytime i opened any news "mainstream",i saw nothing but attacks against Trump and see he won.
    Upper or lower class is irrelevant they are all just people with same worth on this world,their votes count the same and should be heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    The silent majority won in USA,that silent majority is being underestimated in every country throughout the world as we have seen recently and those that lost should deal with it and accept this people.
    Repeating the same words such is racist,xenophobic etc seem not to help.
    I haven't followed much of this elections,but everytime i opened any news "mainstream",i saw nothing but attacks against Trump and see he won.
    Upper or lower class is irrelevant they are all just people with same worth on this world,their votes count the same and should be heard.

    Your naivete' is sad.

    Every revolution only brings a new set of conmen to the top.

    The "people" will never control anything. It's an illusion.
    If you think a Trump Presidency will improve the condition of the US working class you will face 4 years of great disappointment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Your naivete' is sad.

    Every revolution only brings a new set of conmen to the top.

    The "people" will never control anything. It's an illusion.
    If you think a Trump Presidency will improve the condition of the US working class you will face 4 years of great disappointment.
    I never said that people will control anything but they should be heard whatever is their message not neglected or even worse insulted,neither i said what will be improved or not with Trump,cause i never followed his campaign what i see are results of elections,i don't know if this is "revolution",but then you have Trump super rich businessman perhaps he spoke what many people wanted to hear? I edited to avoid of topic comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Then you have Trump super rich businessman.
    Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I don't know much about bond, and never bought one yet. I heard that due to Trump economic program there will be tax cuts and 1 trillion in infrastructure spending. This will increase inflation and economy grow, this will make feds to raise interest rate, and this in turn will help bonds.
    His economic program doesn't sound too bad. Although I'm sceptic about kenyesianism in the long run, it is still better than austerity in short term because it can buy a couple of more years of economic growth. But debt is already so high that inflation might come finally due to bond sell-offs. Thus I also believe that rising bond yields (= falling bond prices!) are due to anticipated inflation/sell-off (vicious cycle). But as I said, this trend interestingly started already two months before Trump.
    The Fed rate is still at the bottom as if it were great depression, but yes, she may have to follow the yields eventually. I don't know what would happen then.

    Maybe Trump starts a new paradigm which replaces monetary QE by government QE. He possibly has to, because the Fed ran out of bullets after 8 years of monetary QE. I remember him saying something offensive about the Fed. On the other hand, he said many things.

    One thing is weird though this time. Usually when bonds go up, stock market goes down. In contrary manner, they both are going up for couple of days now.
    I observed that already many times earlier during the last two months. Very unusual indeed.


    I'm not sure about this. On political news of Hillary most likely winning election, stock market was going up for couple of days, till...Trump won.
    Possible, but I'm more inclined to believe that the Fed was trying to help Hillary until Trump won. What happened afterwards on the markets makes no sense to me whatsoever, except for bonds possibly.

    First effect of this new political event was a big sell off on stock market. Till economists analyzed Trump plan and assumed that he won't destroy economy too quickly, for a year at least, and instead will pour money into infrastructure and will do tax cuts, all good for economy in short term. Stock market doesn't think long term, doesn't predict events farther than one year. But it is based on real world events, real world economy and businesses, and major events like wars and big terrorist attacks. However on occasions stock market can influance real world, like dot.com crash in year 2000.
    Agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Please don't believe everything said by anonymous posters on the internet. This guy sounds like an absolute nutcase. Is he posting in Polish? Are you even sure he's actually an American citizen or how long he's lived here?
    He is an American citizen for sure. He is posting in Polish, because he lived in Communist Poland for several years when his father worked in U.S. embassy or consulate in Poland. And his ancestry is 50% German 50% Polish, and "100% Prussian".

    IIRC he wrote that moved from Poland to the USA in 1986. His nickname is Phouty.

    You see, you didn't even know that you have such "absolute nutcases" there!

    ======================

    BTW - Phouty posted this recently:


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    Phouty likes guns too.

    I followed a link to a photo of his dad's Consular Passport and found:

    http://s400.photobucket.com/user/Pho...?sort=6&page=1

    His Photobucket Account has a lot of photos of some very nice guns:



    Consular Passport:

    http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/p.../pass20001.jpg


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    1 members found this post helpful.

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    Janet Reno was quoted saying: "Donald Trump will never be president in my lifetime."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Reno


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Sorry to hear that. I think what we see now is the temporary swing towards conservatism. Mostly voted for by older generation and rural areas. Why is that?
    These are the demographics who couldn't keep up with all the modern changes. For last few decades people were exposed to fast pace changes. Changes in social acceptance of gays, open global village, races mingling, big technological changes in communication and interacting with the world and ideas, exposure to new religions and cultures, etc. And of course the rise of radical and militant Islam, and terrorist attacks in the West, and big migration, didn't help either. Many people got scared of this new world, and this caused people to retract to their conservative side. It means sticking to what they know the best, sticking to their own kind and culture, build walls, close the borders, hid in their "cocoons" of what they know and trust.

    Progress or let's say changes, don't go in linear manner in one direction, but rather in cyclical, wave like pattern. We can also describe it as a seesaw effect. In US, the progress or road to the future, fluctuates between conservatives and democrats winning elections. After 4-8 years of democrats we usually see 4-8 years of conservatives, and vice versa. It worked almost like clockwork through centuries. This time however it came with a twist in shape of Donald Trump, managing to wake up true conservative electorate. A big pull back this time. Trump managed to steer up all the fears, all the fears the true conservatives people had about the new world. He is a promoter and salesman after all. He can sell well.
    Lebrok, I don't think it's a rural thing, it's a (post)modern populism phenomenon.
    The Netherlands are indeed a kind of Singapore of Europe, highly urbanized. is on place 4 as one of the most advanced economies in the world. Yes there is a highly intensified agricultural sector (the Netherlands although small are the second agricultural exporteur of the world!) but only 2% is working in that sector!

    14 years ago (in the early days after 9/11) ago the Dutch already had un upswing of a kind of right wing populism. Very anti-islam. It was a movement around Pim Foruyn. He was a kind of intellectual version of Trump. On the one hand babyboomer, intellectual (always used his Professor title). On the other hand he was, for sober, moderate Dutch way, very extravaganza. Privat chauffeur. His villa called Pallazzo di Pietro (with lots of marble). Typical Pim Fortuyn is that he denounced Marroc boys, but he loved to have sex with them ;) But on the way to become minister-president he was shot down.....by a fundamental animal activist.
    pim-fortuyn2.jpg
    Since 2002 there is a floating right wing populist vote and just like in the US it's strong in the Dutch version of the rust Belt, in the area around Rotterdam, deindustrialized and especially with changing activities in the big harbor areas. This was the heartland of the Fortuyn movement. And it's also big in the depopulated, shrinking, areas, in outmost North (parts of Groningen and Drenthe and Friesland) and South of the Netherlands (Limburg) along the border with Germany (or partly Belgium, like Zeeland). The area around Amsterdam is like the East or West Coast, booming with a large business and public services, ict, media, and is very liberal minded,

    Geert Wilders filled the gap of Fortuyn. a few year ago he supported a liberal/christen democrat government. But this collapsed. He is less intellectual, less touch of the sixties, more grumpy compared with Fortuyn. Very anti the mindset of the "elite of Amsterdam". His party (party of freedom) has one member: himself. Also less extravagant, although his haircut reminds of his nephew Trump:
    Geert Wilders.jpg
    His party is now leading in the polls.

    I think you can compare the Trump movement with the Fortuyn/Wilders movement. Both primair a reaction on changes like globalization, deindustrializing area's. More than the US were the Netherlands a pretty homogenous country. In the sixties and beyond there came a lot people form Maroc and Turkey to the Netherlands. The integration didn't always went well. Nowadays especially many people of the lower middle class is 'feeling a stranger in his or her own country'. This a matrix for right wing populism!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Correlation is not necessarily causation. Bucks and Chester County are overwhelmingly white, and as upper class/wealthy as one can get, and Clinton won both counties. Sorry to disappoint but this doesn't presage a race war. Americans are not Europeans. To a large extent, people voted their pocketbooks.

    Your friend is a reactionary nut job and totally unrepresentative of Americans no matter how much you might like his opinions. The fact that he chooses to post on a Polish web site in Polish should tell you something. He obviously finds the atmosphere there more congenial than American sites. Or perhaps he knows the white nationalist sites here are already monitored by the FBI? Perhaps someone should give them a tip about this crazy.

    You should by now have realized the stupidity of his claims merely by looking at the fact that he says Trump supporters and Clinton supporters don't know each other. Really? In my own town, 99% white, the vote was pretty much split, but as in Bucks County, Clinton narrowly won. In other words, in case I have to make it clearer, Clinton supporters live right next door to Trump supporters. "Middle class" people don't have yachts or planes for goodness' sakes. I repeat, if he's not a fake, he's nuts and off his meds. Try not to be so credulous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    He is an American citizen for sure. He is posting in Polish, because he lived in Communist Poland for several years when his father worked in U.S. embassy or consulate in Poland. And his ancestry is 50% German 50% Polish, and "100% Prussian".

    IIRC he wrote that moved from Poland to the USA in 1986. His nickname is Phouty.

    You see, you didn't even know that you have such "absolute nutcases" there!

    ======================

    BTW - Phouty posted this recently:

    Why can't the Illegal Americans get redirected to Western Washington or the California? Liberal Polititians were victorious in Washington State during Election Day. :)

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    Americans are not Europeans.
    If you think that Europeans are more right-wing / more conservative than Americans then you probably live on another planet. America is some Redneckistan compared to Europe. What means "left wing" in America would be labeled as "center right" in Europe.

    And your delusion that America is more "progressive" than Europe has just been proven wrong. Trump won against all odds.

    On a Polish forum Trump was compared to Grzegorz Braun, who is a very conservative Polish politician with minimal support:

    From English wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grzegorz_Braun

    Braun's political views are based on the assessment of Polish history with special insight to the upcoming 1050th anniversary of Poland's acceptance of Christianity. He is opposed to the idea of Poland being a state dependent of and controlled by the European Union. He believes that Poland's continuous prosperity can only be guaranteed by the preservation of the traditional family values, the principles of Roman Catholic faith and the faith-based education. He is proponent of revisions to the legacy of former president Lech Wałęsa based on the Wałęsa's alleged cooperation with the communist secret service. He is a proponent of revisions to the current Polish government's investigation of the 2010 Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash (Polish presidential airplane crash) at Smolensk. He is a proponent of revisions to the current Polish government's international trade agreements and political conventions.

    His economic views can be described as liberal as he supports
    tax per head idea and cutting VAT tax.

    On January 24, 2015 he announced his candidacy to run for the office of the President of Poland. In February 2015 he started campaigning in the United States among Polish immigrants and Americans of Polish descent.

    On August 5, 2015, he announced to form an own campaign committee God Bless You! (Szczęść Boże!) to candidate in the parliamentary election in fall 2015. He got 0,09% of the votes, obtaining 13 113 votes.
    Braun's election slogan was "Faith, Family, Property. Church, School, Shooting Range. Freedom, Dignity, Tradition".

    He is very much like Donald Trump, except that he does not behave like a Clown - unlike in case of Trump, who does...

    And just like Donald Trump he has been accused of Anti-Semitism, racism, being anti-immigration, Islamophobic, etc., etc.:



    He is Orange, like Trump: :)




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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Correlation is not necessarily causation. Bucks and Chester County are overwhelmingly white, and as upper class/wealthy as one can get, and Clinton won both counties. Sorry to disappoint but this doesn't presage a race war. Americans are not Europeans. To a large extent, people voted their pocketbooks.

    Your friend is a reactionary nut job and totally unrepresentative of Americans no matter how much you might like his opinions. The fact that he chooses to post on a Polish web site in Polish should tell you something. He obviously finds the atmosphere there more congenial than American sites. Or perhaps he knows the white nationalist sites here are already monitored by the FBI? Perhaps someone should give them a tip about this crazy.

    You should by now have realized the stupidity of his claims merely by looking at the fact that he says Trump supporters and Clinton supporters don't know each other. Really? In my own town, 99% white, the vote was pretty much split, but as in Bucks County, Clinton narrowly won. In other words, in case I have to make it clearer, Clinton supporters live right next door to Trump supporters. "Middle class" people don't have yachts or planes for goodness' sakes. I repeat, if he's not a fake, he's nuts and off his meds. Try not to be so credulous.
    Yes the US is in immigrant country but racism is not unknown.....Even with the election of JFK this was a kind of thing he was the first not (W)ASP....and the emancipation of the blacks from the sixties and beyond is blood sweat and tears....I could go on....

    And of course it's a kind of "white (lower) middle class" thing especially in the Rust Belt, former democrat ground. People there are feeling deprived, getting back of the queue. The next generation don't get better. And some blacks and other minorities are making progress on the social ladder. In some parts in the US (well documented and researched) this is a ground to vote on Trump....

    May be Sanders could get their vote (although partly seen as 'a professor from the East Coast', I guess) but at least authentic! Clinton is miss Washingthon par excellence who also sold herself to Wall Street. So for the Blue Collar in decline not attractive.....





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