Politics Vote for a president of USA - 2016 election

[Northener]

Sorry to hear that. I think what we see now is the temporary swing towards conservatism. Mostly voted for by older generation and rural areas. Why is that?
These are the demographics who couldn't keep up with all the modern changes. For last few decades people were exposed to fast pace changes. Changes in social acceptance of gays, open global village, races mingling, big technological changes in communication and interacting with the world and ideas, exposure to new religions and cultures, etc. And of course the rise of radical and militant Islam, and terrorist attacks in the West, and big migration, didn't help either. Many people got scared of this new world, and this caused people to retract to their conservative side. It means sticking to what they know the best, sticking to their own kind and culture, build walls, close the borders, hid in their "cocoons" of what they know and trust.

Progress or let's say changes, don't go in linear manner in one direction, but rather in cyclical, wave like pattern. We can also describe it as a seesaw effect. In US, the progress or road to the future, fluctuates between conservatives and democrats winning elections. After 4-8 years of democrats we usually see 4-8 years of conservatives, and vice versa. It worked almost like clockwork through centuries. This time however it came with a twist in shape of Donald Trump, managing to wake up true conservative electorate. A big pull back this time. Trump managed to steer up all the fears, all the fears the true conservatives people had about the new world. He is a promoter and salesman after all. He can sell well.

Lebrok, I don't think it's a rural thing, it's a (post)modern populism phenomenon.
The Netherlands are indeed a kind of Singapore of Europe, highly urbanized. is on place 4 as one of the most advanced economies in the world. Yes there is a highly intensified agricultural sector (the Netherlands although small are the second agricultural exporteur of the world!) but only 2% is working in that sector!

14 years ago (in the early days after 9/11) ago the Dutch already had un upswing of a kind of right wing populism. Very anti-islam. It was a movement around Pim Foruyn. He was a kind of intellectual version of Trump. On the one hand babyboomer, intellectual (always used his Professor title). On the other hand he was, for sober, moderate Dutch way, very extravaganza. Privat chauffeur. His villa called Pallazzo di Pietro (with lots of marble). Typical Pim Fortuyn is that he denounced Marroc boys, but he loved to have sex with them But on the way to become minister-president he was shot down.....by a fundamental animal activist.

Since 2002 there is a floating right wing populist vote and just like in the US it's strong in the Dutch version of the rust Belt, in the area around Rotterdam, deindustrialized and especially with changing activities in the big harbor areas. This was the heartland of the Fortuyn movement. And it's also big in the depopulated, shrinking, areas, in outmost North (parts of Groningen and Drenthe and Friesland) and South of the Netherlands (Limburg) along the border with Germany (or partly Belgium, like Zeeland). The area around Amsterdam is like the East or West Coast, booming with a large business and public services, ict, media, and is very liberal minded,

Geert Wilders filled the gap of Fortuyn. a few year ago he supported a liberal/christen democrat government. But this collapsed. He is less intellectual, less touch of the sixties, more grumpy compared with Fortuyn. Very anti the mindset of the "elite of Amsterdam". His party (party of freedom) has one member: himself. Also less extravagant, although his haircut reminds of his nephew Trump:

His party is now leading in the polls.

I think you can compare the Trump movement with the Fortuyn/Wilders movement. Both primair a reaction on changes like globalization, deindustrializing area's. More than the US were the Netherlands a pretty homogenous country. In the sixties and beyond there came a lot people form Maroc and Turkey to the Netherlands. The integration didn't always went well. Nowadays especially many people of the lower middle class is 'feeling a stranger in his or her own country'. This a matrix for right wing populism!

 

[Angela]

Correlation is not necessarily causation. Bucks and Chester County are overwhelmingly white, and as upper class/wealthy as one can get, and Clinton won both counties. Sorry to disappoint but this doesn't presage a race war. Americans are not Europeans. To a large extent, people voted their pocketbooks.

Your friend is a reactionary nut job and totally unrepresentative of Americans no matter how much you might like his opinions. The fact that he chooses to post on a Polish web site in Polish should tell you something. He obviously finds the atmosphere there more congenial than American sites. Or perhaps he knows the white nationalist sites here are already monitored by the FBI? Perhaps someone should give them a tip about this crazy.

You should by now have realized the stupidity of his claims merely by looking at the fact that he says Trump supporters and Clinton supporters don't know each other. Really? In my own town, 99% white, the vote was pretty much split, but as in Bucks County, Clinton narrowly won. In other words, in case I have to make it clearer, Clinton supporters live right next door to Trump supporters. "Middle class" people don't have yachts or planes for goodness' sakes. I repeat, if he's not a fake, he's nuts and off his meds. Try not to be so credulous.

 

[Twilight]

He is an American citizen for sure. He is posting in Polish, because he lived in Communist Poland for several years when his father worked in U.S. embassy or consulate in Poland. And his ancestry is 50% German 50% Polish, and "100% Prussian".

IIRC he wrote that moved from Poland to the USA in 1986. His nickname is Phouty.

You see, you didn't even know that you have such "absolute nutcases" there!

======================

BTW - Phouty posted this recently: :grin:

Why can't the Illegal Americans get redirected to Western Washington or the California? Liberal Polititians were victorious in Washington State during Election Day.

 

[Tomenable]

Americans are not Europeans.

If you think that Europeans are more right-wing / more conservative than Americans then you probably live on another planet. America is some Redneckistan compared to Europe. What means "left wing" in America would be labeled as "center right" in Europe.

And your delusion that America is more "progressive" than Europe has just been proven wrong. Trump won against all odds.

On a Polish forum Trump was compared to Grzegorz Braun, who is a very conservative Polish politician with minimal support:

From English wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grzegorz_Braun

Braun's political views are based on the assessment of Polish history with special insight to the upcoming 1050th anniversary of Poland's acceptance of Christianity. He is opposed to the idea of Poland being a state dependent of and controlled by the European Union. He believes that Poland's continuous prosperity can only be guaranteed by the preservation of the traditional family values, the principles of Roman Catholic faith and the faith-based education. He is proponent of revisions to the legacy of former president Lech Wałęsa based on the Wałęsa's alleged cooperation with the communist secret service. He is a proponent of revisions to the current Polish government's investigation of the 2010 Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash (Polish presidential airplane crash) at Smolensk. He is a proponent of revisions to the current Polish government's international trade agreements and political conventions.

His economic views can be described as liberal as he supports tax per head idea and cutting VAT tax.

On January 24, 2015 he announced his candidacy to run for the office of the President of Poland. In February 2015 he started campaigning in the United States among Polish immigrants and Americans of Polish descent.

On August 5, 2015, he announced to form an own campaign committee God Bless You! (Szczęść Boże!) to candidate in the parliamentary election in fall 2015. He got 0,09% of the votes, obtaining 13 113 votes.

Braun's election slogan was "Faith, Family, Property. Church, School, Shooting Range. Freedom, Dignity, Tradition".

He is very much like Donald Trump, except that he does not behave like a Clown - unlike in case of Trump, who does... :grin:

And just like Donald Trump he has been accused of Anti-Semitism, racism, being anti-immigration, Islamophobic, etc., etc.:

He is Orange, like Trump:

 

[Northener]

Correlation is not necessarily causation. Bucks and Chester County are overwhelmingly white, and as upper class/wealthy as one can get, and Clinton won both counties. Sorry to disappoint but this doesn't presage a race war. Americans are not Europeans. To a large extent, people voted their pocketbooks.

Your friend is a reactionary nut job and totally unrepresentative of Americans no matter how much you might like his opinions. The fact that he chooses to post on a Polish web site in Polish should tell you something. He obviously finds the atmosphere there more congenial than American sites. Or perhaps he knows the white nationalist sites here are already monitored by the FBI? Perhaps someone should give them a tip about this crazy.

You should by now have realized the stupidity of his claims merely by looking at the fact that he says Trump supporters and Clinton supporters don't know each other. Really? In my own town, 99% white, the vote was pretty much split, but as in Bucks County, Clinton narrowly won. In other words, in case I have to make it clearer, Clinton supporters live right next door to Trump supporters. "Middle class" people don't have yachts or planes for goodness' sakes. I repeat, if he's not a fake, he's nuts and off his meds. Try not to be so credulous.

Yes the US is in immigrant country but racism is not unknown.....Even with the election of JFK this was a kind of thing he was the first not (W)ASP....and the emancipation of the blacks from the sixties and beyond is blood sweat and tears....I could go on....

And of course it's a kind of "white (lower) middle class" thing especially in the Rust Belt, former democrat ground. People there are feeling deprived, getting back of the queue. The next generation don't get better. And some blacks and other minorities are making progress on the social ladder. In some parts in the US (well documented and researched) this is a ground to vote on Trump....

May be Sanders could get their vote (although partly seen as 'a professor from the East Coast', I guess) but at least authentic! Clinton is miss Washingthon par excellence who also sold herself to Wall Street. So for the Blue Collar in decline not attractive.....

 

[Tomenable]

Braun's views on taxes (in English): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D4hUOcyi3M#t=47s

Note that the current ruling party in Poland - Law & Justice - is socially conservative, but economically left-wing.

Most of "populist right-wing" in Europe are conservative socially, but economically they are usually quite socialistic.

Trump is both: he is economically right-wing and socially he is still more conservative than Europe's right-wing.

 

[LeBrok]

The silent majority won in USA,that silent majority is being underestimated in every country throughout the world as we have seen recently and those that lost should deal with it and accept this people.

Silent yes, but Majority no. Check your numbers, Hillary won the popular vote.

 

[LeBrok]

Your naivete' is sad.

Every revolution only brings a new set of conmen to the top.

The "people" will never control anything. It's an illusion.
If you think a Trump Presidency will improve the condition of the US working class you will face 4 years of great disappointment.

I agree with most, but people control being an illusion. People do have say in direction of politics and economy, but these systems are so complex and complicated that it is hard to predict consequences of changes. It is almost beyond human comprehension at the moment. We need to try and experiment with new directions almost blindly, to see if they work, and most often will be wrong.
So for the moment, till someone invents new form of economy and politics and proves they worth, I will stick with what we know works the best. Though I'm always willing to experiment somewhat.

 

[Tomenable]

Your friend is a reactionary nut job and totally unrepresentative of Americans no matter how much you might like his opinions. The fact that he chooses to post on a Polish web site in Polish should tell you something. He obviously finds the atmosphere there more congenial than American sites. Or perhaps he knows the white nationalist sites here are already monitored by the FBI? Perhaps someone should give them a tip about this crazy.

Hahaha. Another blooper Angela. You assumed that this website is hosted from Poland, and is not monitored by the FBI.

No, I just wrote that it is a Polish forum. But I did not write that it was founded in Poland, or that it is hosted from Poland.

I'm not sure but I think that it is even hosted from the USA. One of supermoderators is Net_Skater - a retired U.S. Navy soldier, another Polish-American and Trump supporter. Net_Skater's profile page: http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showuser=1980

Phouty's profile page (I think he knows Net_Skater in real life): http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showuser=81932

And it is just a normal history forum ("historians.org") not any "White nationalist" forum:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showforum=206

But political correctness is not rampage there, I admit. So you will not get banned if you post some "controversial stuff".

Of course history fora tend to be dominated by users with right-leaning or centrist views. Also historum.com is:

http://historum.com

I personally don't know any stricte history-related forum dominated by leftists, but maybe such fora also exist.

===================

BTW - Phouty is not my friend, I was just reading his posts.

 

[Angela]

How Liberals Totally Blew It On Trump:

http://theweek.com/articles/661031/how-liberals-totally-blew-donald-trump

Michael Moore Predicting Trump would win:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKeYbEOSqYc

@Tomenable,

Nonsense. I've said numerous times that politically America is less socialistic, more conservative than Europe, but the kind of hatred of outsiders, of people of other races and religious groups that is rampant particularly in the eastern block does not exist here. Period.

I've traveled all over this country, and while you can find some people like that they're by far a small minority, unlike in Europe. You can post garbage, obviously incorrect and easily disproved statements by every outlier, extremist nut-job you can find, and that won't change this essential fact. As I said, stop being so credulous about what people tell you on the internet.

Also, please stop trying to distract with technicalities, as you always do when you're proven wrong. The facts are clear, and your white nationalist site, wherever it's hosted, does not represent the vast majority of the American people. People like that are ostracized...in business, politically, and socially. They're losers playing to their own choir. They influence nothing.

 

[Sile]

popular vote.....what a silly notion when the nation does not have compulsory voting ..............what would the missing millions of voters voted for!........so in the USA popular voting counts for zero when all do not vote..

In Australia, we have compulsory voting and the popular vote is won in every election by only one party , yet we follow our electoral rules agreed by all parties on who wins an election.

Clearly whiners in USA find any excuse .............USA has electoral rules, do they or not ............

 

[Tomenable]

the kind of hatred of outsiders, of people of other races and religious groups that is rampant particularly in the eastern block does not exist here

This hatred mostly exists in American media. In real life there is no more racism in Eastern Europe than anywhere else in the world.

American media, dominated by ethnic and religious groups which historically disliked Poles and Catholics in general, are spreading a lot of bad propaganda about Poland. This is why you have a wrong impression of what is rampant here and what is not rampant here.

Maybe in countries with a lot of Gypsies the situation is different, but these countries are the Balkans + Hungary + Slovakia.

In Poland there are very few Gypsies.

But in opinion polls, Gypsies are still the most disliked ethnic group in Poland (opinion about Black Africans is much better).

Polish Anti-Semitism is not any worse than Anti-Semitism of typical Trump supporters.

So if you think that one exists and the other one doesn't exist, then you are being dishonest.

And I saw some exist polls which show that ~95% of Jewish-Americans voted for Clinton. Compared to ~88% of Afro-Americans.

So it is obvious that every Anti-Semite in your country voted for Trump because they know that "Clinton is in Jewish hands".

 

[Tomenable]

Mainstream American media's coverage of "Eastern Europe" etc. is about as close to reality as their coverage of this election.

And we all know how close they were.

"There is a 90% chance that Clinton is going to destroy this racist Trump" = their predictions one day before the Election Day.

 

[Sile]

Yes the US is in immigrant country but racism is not unknown.....Even with the election of JFK this was a kind of thing he was the first not was (W)ASP....and the emancipation of the blacks from the sixties and beyond is blood sweat and tears....I could go on....

And of course it's a kind of "with (lower) middle class" thing especially in the Rust Belt, former democrat ground. People there are feeling deprived, getting back of the queue. The next generation don't get better. And some blacks and other minorities are making progress on the social ladder. In some parts in the US (well documented and researched) this is a ground to vote on Trump....

May be Sanders could get their vote (although partly seen as 'a professor from the East Coast', I guess) but at least authentic! Clinton is miss Washingthon par excellence who also sold herself to Wall Street. So for the Blue Collar in decline not attractive.....

White Caucasian males and females are sick of being stood on by the racist others and are seeking a balance via change through votes


most of western society will follow the UK ( brexit ) and USA ......in changing the misfortunes of the respective nation by major changes in goverment

France
Netherlands
Italy
germany

will also follow suit when they have their elections.

 

[Tomenable]

Trump is married to an Eastern European and he likes Catholics (= "he must be Anti-Semitic LOL"):

 

[Northener]

Braun's election slogan was "Faith, Family, Property. Church, School, Shooting Range. Freedom, Dignity, Tradition".


Tomenable that's plain old social conservatism, Trump is not like that at all (for that cases he has his vice president

 

[Tomenable]

By the way Poland's current right-wing President - Andrzej Duda - is married to a 1/4 Jewish woman.

But of course he has been accused of Anti-Semitism in Western media just because he was a candidate of a right-wing party. Nobody mentioned that he is married to a Jew. And his party has also been accused of Anti-Semitism for no good reason.

See, Poland's First Lady is a grand-daughter of a Holocaust survivor from Cracow:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agata_Kornhauser-Duda#Background_and_family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Kornhauser

And Donald Trump's daughter is married to a Jew and has converted to Judaism.

Yet - of course - it doesn't stop people from accusing Trump of Anti-Semitism.

He probably hates his daughter both for being a woman AND for being a Jew!

He will be grabbing his grandson by the kippah.

 

[Northener]

Trump is married to an Eastern European and he likes Catholics (= "he must be Anti-Semitic LOL"):

Yes he likes to mistreat your fellow countryman (with the building of the Trump Tower) and denounced Latino's how devote......

 

[Milan]

This for example happened in Chicago

I do not think that white people are the only racists to which most of the time is alluded.

 

[Northener]

Hear hear Angela! (euhm Merkel
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...-election-warning_uk_582313c5e4b020461a1e8713