Vote for a president of USA. 2016 election.

[bicicleur]

Indeed, the middle east is at least 70 / 150 years backwards from the main democracies in the world today. Very few people remember what Europe went through to earn what it has today. Europe was as Religiously fundamentalist as much as the middle east is today and has seen atrocities MUCH bigger (no matter how horrible it may be) then we see in the middle east today. This is the truth for those who can take it. There will be a time when the great civilizations will be revived and they will be the new destinations where mass tourism will flow........but it will take time.

what is the difference between ISIS and what happened in the darkest middle ages?

as I mentioned above, it took Europe 600 years to evolve from there

besides .. we're going seriously off-topic here

[bicicleur]

Are you sure? read well between the lines. No need for a PHD :)........both guys blame specific groups in arrogant provocative speeches (which are new in the case of the USA never seen before) and promise to remove them from their society with the logo to make their countries great (again). They both preach hate wrapped in arrogance and sarcasm claiming popular movements from all spheres of society.

oops had to add:- and that is for starters

yes I'm sure, and your answer is completley beside my point

you'll have to find better arguments to fight him

his followers are fed up with the half truth of political correctness
do you realy believe calling Trump a Hitler will convince them?
first handle the other half of truth nobody wanted to talk about

[DuPidh]

I don't think it will lessen the support of his core voters. It just reinforces the beliefs that fueled their anger in the first place, including their sense that the left believes in free speech only for themselves, and that, to Bicicleur's point, things that are obviously true can no longer be said.

The question for me is whether these attempts to shut him down will so infuriate other Republicans (and cross over Democrats) that they will give him enough votes in the remaining primaries to get him the Republican nomination.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrljcmIyOuk


Up to now I thought he could be stopped since he was stalled at about 35% in the primaries and a good chunk of that was from cross-over Democrats (That's the insanity, imo, of having "open" primaries, where non party members can vote or register party affiliation on the day of the primary.).

If the anger over scenes like this works in his favor, he might defeat Kasich in his home state despite a 78% approval rating, and also Rubio in Florida, and he might then take the nomination given that the remaining states are ones where the winner takes all the delegates (no proportional representation) despite never getting above 40% of the votes cast.

@Boreas,
Please source your material. If that chart comes from Media Matters or The New York Times it's useless.

@Bicileur,

You're right. He offers no solutions. It's just slogans that appeal to the emotions of people who don't like what is happening to their lives and to the country in general and feel powerless to change it. He either doesn't know anything about the issues he's addressing, or the things he promises can't be done. One laughable example: when he was asked how he would handle some foreign conflict his response was that he's such a great negotiator that he'd just get everybody to agree. I mean, it's ludicrous. It's as if these people have suspended all logic. It's in this way that his campaign is disturbingly reminiscent of Hitler's. He's giving impassioned speeches that speak not to reason but to emotion, and those speeches can drive division and the scapegoating of minority groups.

That he's even running as a Republican is strange. He's been against second amendment gun rights, has been for universal health care, unlimited abortion rights, etc. He's a totally irreligious man with a string of divorces behind him. His knowledge of the Constitution could fit into a thimble, and he would probably appoint very liberal judges. The only issues on which he could be held to be on the right are support of the military and issues of national security and foreign policy. Well, he's also a supporter of capitalism, of course, and against socialism.

To be fair to him, I've never heard of anything to the effect that he's personally bigoted in any way against any "group", and he's a very known quantity here in New York: a lot of people have rubbed shoulders with him. I mean, his wives have been foreigners, his daughter converted to Judaism on her marriage, I don't think he gives a damn about anyone's sexual orientation, I've never heard of him exhibiting any racism etc.

I wonder if he really understands the kind of whirlwind he's unleashed. Most of his supporters wouldn't hurt a fly, but there's no denying that a minority of them hold opinions that would probably horrify him. That elicits a response from "bad actors" on the other side.

I honestly don't know how this will end. It's true that in the early primaries he got some support from a percentage of Hispanics(Mexican Americans) just based on economics and his promises to improve the economy (in Nevada, for example). We'll see if that continues as the rhetoric heats up. I'll tell you that the Hispanics around me, Puerto Ricans and Central Americans, the latter of whom all have illegals in their families, hate him like poison. It's a mistake to treat Hispanics as a monolithic block. I'll tell you another thing, if he comes to be viewed as some sort of white supremacist he'll go down and he'll trash the Republican Party in the process and then there will be no opposing force to extreme liberalism. There just aren't enough white people who would vote for him.

Another thing, the organizers of the protests are the moveon.org crowd, who are anarchists and/or communists, in my opinion, and black groups like "black lives matter".

Angela! You have Italian heritage and I guess you follow Italian politics as well. You need to be reminded that there are more than 2 parties in Italy. There are far left, left, center left parties and the same for the right wing parties. Why on the world would you think in USA are only left and right parties. Republican Party has no choice but to split since the moderation does not work anymore. Change of demographics has made the 2 party system very cumbersome. Here is why: Take Republicans. They have a demographic deficit to win elections in the current form. Their leadership has called for opening the party to other than whites. But they also host the far right in their ranks. Do you think their far right which could be as much as 25% of their membership will happily embrace Mexicans in their ranks? So again, Wake up, its not Trump as you are saying that will destroy the party no matter what his success will be in elections. Its the new social alignment happening in the US as the result of demographic changes.
Or take Democrats: So far its been blacks who have benefited the lion share of free things that government distributes. Among others the affirmative actions. Haven't you noticed that the most adamant opposition for affirmative actions does not come from whites? Its Asians that whenever they get a chance they spill the venom against. Do you really think that when Hispanics reach 100 million as the projections say will not have their own Hispanic Party to squeeze more benefits for their " La Raza"?
So no matter what Trump will do or not do, he is just heralding the new social alignment in American politics. This will be more vocal after November elections. Republicans are already two parties. What is Tea Party a Republican;
Trump is doing Republican Party a great service. He is the messenger of change. He is telling Republicans that Gay marriage is not a topic to excite anyone anymore, he is telling them to soften their abortion stance or abandoning it altogether. He is telling them look to the poor, not just the rich they have looked so far.

[Angela]

Angela! You have Italian heritage and I guess you follow Italian politics as well. You need to be reminded that there are more than 2 parties in Italy. There are far left, left, center left parties and the same for the right wing parties. Why on the world would you think in USA are only left and right parties. Republican Party has no choice but to split since the moderation does not work anymore. Change of demographics has made the 2 party system very cumbersome. Here is why: Take Republicans. They have a demographic deficit to win elections in the current form. Their leadership has called for opening the party to other than whites. But they also host the far right in their ranks. Do you think their far right which could be as much as 25% of their membership will happily embrace Mexicans in their ranks? So again, Wake up, its not Trump as you are saying that will destroy the party no matter what his success will be in elections. Its the new social alignment happening in the US as the result of demographic changes.
Or take Democrats: So far its been blacks who have benefited the lion share of free things that government distributes. Among others the affirmative actions. Haven't you noticed that the most adamant opposition for affirmative actions does not come from whites? Its Asians that whenever they get a chance they spill the venom against. Do you really think that when Hispanics reach 100 million as the projections say will not have their own Hispanic Party to squeeze more benefits for their " La Raza"?
So no matter what Trump will do or not do, he is just heralding the new social alignment in American politics. This will be more vocal after November elections. Republicans are already two parties. What is Tea Party a Republican;
Trump is doing Republican Party a great service. He is the messenger of change. He is telling Republicans that Gay marriage is not a topic to excite anyone anymore, he is telling them to soften their abortion stance or abandoning it altogether. He is telling them look to the poor, not just the rich they have looked so far.

What new alignment? I just saw a poll which shows that 67% of Americans (all Americans, of any or no party) find Trump unacceptable as president. Do you get it? 67%! Let me make it clearer. That means 33% find him acceptable, would ever even consider voting for him. The highest I've ever seen him poll is 38%. I think even Goldwater did better than that. What is it that you don't understand here? That isn't enough to win.

Italian politics are a total disaster. Why would I want to import that kind of dysfunction here?

Oh, and good luck finding a Trump supporter with a PHD. His core supporters skew male, blue collar, and lack a college education. Look it up before talking through your hat.

[DuPidh]

What new alignment? I just saw a poll which shows that 67% of Americans (all Americans, of any or no party) find Trump unacceptable as president. Do you get it? 67%! Let me make it clearer. That means 33% find him acceptable, would ever even consider voting for him. The highest I've ever seen him poll is 38%. I think even Goldwater did better than that. What is it that you don't understand here? That isn't enough to win.

Italian politics are a total disaster. Why would I want to import that kind of dysfunction here?

Oh, and good luck finding a Trump supporter with a PHD. His core supporters skew male, blue collar, and lack a college education. Look it up before talking through your hat.

What polls do you read? The polls are cooked in TV studios. According to the polls Trump should not have been a presidential contender at all! But in a crowded field of contenders, under a barrage of liberal TV assaults he is still unbeatable. Even if 67% of Americans find him unacceptable I am not impressed since he is running as a republican. Of course Blacks and Hispanics find him unacceptable since he is promising to build a wall and they will have to climb after that.( which they are lazy to do). Its not true that his supporters have no education. I do have a masters in science and I support him. Is the Sicilian Christ Christy (The governor of New Jersey) uneducated? The governor of Maine? The governor of Arizona? Its a new alignment of political forces in USA as the result of demographic changes. Get used to with it!

[LeBrok]

( which they are lazy to do)

I advise you against demeaning any ethnicity here on Eupedia.

I do have a masters in science and I support him.

I'll be damned, you tricked us with your posts full of "facts and substance".

Why are you hiding behind Mexican flag? Your IP says New York.

[Maleth]

what is the difference between ISIS and what happened in the darkest middle ages?

as I mentioned above, it took Europe 600 years to evolve from there

besides .. we're going seriously off-topic here

Its all very well related bicicleur forget off topic. there is no difference between Isis and what happened even 70 years ago in Europe (forget the atrocities of the middle ages inquisition and the burning at stake for religious heracy).

[Maleth]

yes I'm sure, and your answer is completley beside my point

are they really? probably you just would not like to hear it.....as I said it all there for all to see. Its not like im making it up. One has a right to wear blinkers and think what they want.

you'll have to find better arguments to fight him

I didnt know I was fighting Trump I thought Im debating logic and common sense. I am really glad he is not running in my country but unfortunately who runs the USA will effect the whole world

his followers are fed up with the half truth of political correctness

lol and you really believe that Trump is saying full truth and breaking taboos by taking the piss out of handicapped people. I think this will be a point when rational debating will not work anymore. Anyone can believe that father xmas comes downthrough a chimmney. Its a free world

do you realy believe calling Trump a Hitler will convince them?
first handle the other half of truth nobody wanted to talk about

Thats their problem not mine. I very much doubt if any of his supports know how Hitler rose to power and what his arguments were. Probably they think its a far fetched thing and see themselves as Nationalists and Patriots, but Hitlers supporters were exactly the same. Thats the naked truth for those who can take it.

[bicicleur]

Its all very well related bicicleur forget off topic. there is no difference between Isis and what happened even 70 years ago in Europe (forget the atrocities of the middle ages inquisition and the burning at stake for religious heracy).

you relate ISIS with what happened 70 year ago in Europe?
I guess you mean the Balkan wars
congratulations, you have as much fantasy as Trump
but you are not so good a salesman

[bicicleur]

are they really? probably you just would not like to hear it.....as I said it all there for all to see. Its not like im making it up. One has a right to wear blinkers and think what they want.



I didnt know I was fighting Trump I thought Im debating logic and common sense. I am really glad he is not running in my country but unfortunately who runs the USA will effect the whole world



lol and you really believe that Trump is saying full truth and breaking taboos by taking the piss out of handicapped people. I think this will be a point when rational debating will not work anymore. Anyone can believe that father xmas comes downthrough a chimmney. Its a free world



Thats their problem not mine. I very much doubt if any of his supports know how Hitler rose to power and what his arguments were. Probably they think its a far fetched thing and see themselves as Nationalists and Patriots, but Hitlers supporters were exactly the same. Thats the naked truth for those who can take it.

no you're not debating logic and common sense in this thread here
this thread is about the 2016 American election campaign

besides you are overestimating logic and common sense
there is nothing common about it
everybody has his own logic and common sense in these matters, including you
if you say it is common sense, you mean nobody is allowed another opinion than yours

[Maciamo]

That he's even running as a Republican is strange. He's been against second amendment gun rights, has been for universal health care, unlimited abortion rights, etc. He's a totally irreligious man with a string of divorces behind him. His knowledge of the Constitution could fit into a thimble, and he would probably appoint very liberal judges. The only issues on which he could be held to be on the right are support of the military and issues of national security and foreign policy. Well, he's also a supporter of capitalism, of course, and against socialism.

To be fair to him, I've never heard of anything to the effect that he's personally bigoted in any way against any "group", and he's a very known quantity here in New York: a lot of people have rubbed shoulders with him. I mean, his wives have been foreigners, his daughter converted to Judaism on her marriage, I don't think he gives a damn about anyone's sexual orientation, I've never heard of him exhibiting any racism etc.

I have to admit that I haven't watched any speech (yet) during this presidential campaign and my interest is one of a distant observer, not being American and having a limited interest in politics nowadays.

My negative opinion of Trump comes mostly from all his inflammatory and irresponsible comments, his blatant lies and his demagogic rhetoric, which, as you rightly mentions appeals not to reason but to emotions, just like Hitler.

Nevertheless, what you wrote here (passage quoted above) goes a long way in improving my image of the man. If all you said is true, his speeches are just a façade to attract a large part of the electorate that would not otherwise have voted for a reasonable, liberal candidate. It's indeed quite a wonder that he campaigns as a Republican if he is in favour of unlimited abortion, gun control and universal health care, and that on top of that he is not religious.

All these socially liberal values combined with a tough stance on crime and immigration is exactly what I would look for in a politician, be it in the US or in Western Europe (illegal immigration not being a major issue in countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand or even eastern Europe).

So perhaps Trump really is just a Democrat parading as a Republican and making wildly inflammatory speeches on purpose just to steal the widest share possible of the Republican electorate that would not have voted for the Democrats. In that scenario, if he wins the Republican primaries, you can be sure a Democrat will end up in the White House. And actually, if his true colours are those that you described, and all the speeches are just part of the campaign tactics, then I wouldn't mind Trump over Clinton or even Sanders as a president. However I think he went too far with the hate speeches to be elected as president (hence the 67% of Americans that you mention find him an unacceptable choice). So it looks like Hilary Clinton will be the next president.

[Maciamo]

Why are you hiding behind Mexican flag? Your IP says New York.

Correct. I have changed his flag to USA. And DuPidh's writing style has strong Irish undertones.

[Maciamo]

Trump is smart enough to play the public.
And I think he is even smart enough to realise that what he offers are not real solutions, but it sells.
If he would become president, I think he would be smart enough not to do some of the things he is selling to the public now.
Which does not mean he'll do smart things as a president.

But we don't know.
I remember when Reagan came to power, the criticism that 'a second rate actor' and 'a cowboy' now came to rule the most powerful naion in the world.
To me, Reagan was one of the best presidents America has had recently.

Agreed. Reagan's success was in no small part because he was not a career politician. As an outsider he would have relied more to an entourage of trusted advisors than on his personal opinions. And when it comes to leading such a huge and complex country as the USA it is far better to listen to specialists in each field that to think that you know better than everyone else. A good president should act more like a company's chairman and delegate as much as possible to specialists. Trump being a good businessman, he could actually make a good Reagan-style president. I really don't think he could turn into a Putin or Erdogan, least of all a Hitler. He would have too much too lose as a billionaire if the people and businesses (especially in New York) were to turn against him in protest.

[Maleth]

you relate ISIS with what happened 70 year ago in Europe?
I guess you mean the Balkan wars
congratulations, you have as much fantasy as Trump
but you are not so good a salesman

I have fantasy? you never heard of world war 2 and how many millions of people died besides the devastation in Europe?...........ok some things are getting more and more clear now.

[bicicleur]

I have fantasy? you never heard of world war 2 and how many millions of people died besides the devastation in Europe?...........ok some things are getting more and more clear now.

you are the one comparing Trump with Hitler here
do you think he will mobilise an army to do the same?

[Maleth]

you are the one comparing Trump with Hitler here
do you think he will mobilise an army to do the same?

Well...he is arrogant, short tempered, he is jealous that Mexico and China GDP are growing and said this has to stop, he finds it ok to punch people and get them out on a stretcher, he mimics handicapped people, he insulted women many times but they are ok if they got a good piece of ass, he said he dosent know who David Duke is......Lots of traits that resembel the Führer. (I dont think the Fuhrer ever insulted women so much tho) You just need a number of bad incidents to mobilise an army and he got all the ingredients. But if you agree with him in everything he will organise a party and be very nice to you and might also tell you he loves you.

[bicicleur]

Well...he is arrogant, short tempered, he is jealous that Mexico and China GDP are growing and said this has to stop, he finds it ok to punch people and get them out on a stretcher, he mimics handicapped people, he insulted women many times but they are ok if they got a good piece of ass, he said he dosent know who David Duke is......Lots of traits that resembel the Führer. (I dont think the Fuhrer ever insulted women so much tho) You just need a number of bad incidents to mobilise an army and he got all the ingredients. But if you agree with him in everything he will organise a party and be very nice to you and might also tell you he loves you.

Do you think I agree with him after all I told here?
But you should stop comparing anyone you don't like with Hitler.
Like I told you before, you're losing all credibility like that.
Unless of course, if you're a salesman like Trump.
Furthermore you're insulting the real victims of Hitler and the like.

[Angela]

What polls do you read? The polls are cooked in TV studios. According to the polls Trump should not have been a presidential contender at all! But in a crowded field of contenders, under a barrage of liberal TV assaults he is still unbeatable. Even if 67% of Americans find him unacceptable I am not impressed since he is running as a republican. Of course Blacks and Hispanics find him unacceptable since he is promising to build a wall and they will have to climb after that.( which they are lazy to do). Its not true that his supporters have no education. I do have a masters in science and I support him. Is the Sicilian Christ Christy (The governor of New Jersey) uneducated? The governor of Maine? The governor of Arizona? Its a new alignment of political forces in USA as the result of demographic changes. Get used to with it!

There you have some of the core Trump supporters. Scratch the surface and the racism bubbles up. For those who vote for Trump, you really want to get in bed with these people?

As for polls, they've in fact given Trump higher percentages, in most cases, to how he actually does at the ballot box. Get your facts straight.

Some points for clarity. Blacks don't have to climb a fence to get here...they've been here virtually since the establishment of the country. Most of the Hispanics I come across are hard workers, cleaning houses, doing yard work, pouring concrete, working in fast food restaurants. Out west they're picking crops. Stop maligning people who are, for the most part, just trying to provide for their families.

Chris Christie is half Sicilian and half Irish, a lethal combination if you get in his way, but someone who acts before he thinks. He lived to regret hugging Obama after the hurricane, and he'll live to regret this.

Christie is a typical Northeast moderate Republican. He's no aggressive secularist (indeed he's a practicing Catholic, albeit a typical "cafeteria" style one) or believer in late term abortions, but he's moderate in his stance on social issues, including abortion, gun control, gay marriage etc. At the same time he's an economic conservative, for keeping taxes as low as possible, helping small businesses, cutting welfare fraud, curbing the excesses of some unions, maintaining law and order, having a strong defense. He even has some of Trump's pugnacity. He's actually much like Trump, minus the fame and recognition that being a reality star gave Trump, and minus his skills at playing the crowds and the media. That he endorsed Trump was not a surprise.

His main problem as a candidate was that he destroyed himself with a lot of Republicans by a single gesture: embracing Obama when he came to New Jersey to inspect the hurricane damage. His other problem is the same problem that dogs all moderate Republicans. They're not far enough to the "right" in terms of "social" issues to satisfy the other wing of the Republican Party, although they'd fare better in general elections. That's why Obama won in the first place: the most die hard extreme right Republicans stayed home rather than vote for Romney. It's a death wish as far as I'm concerned. Oh, and since he's been a governor for so long he didn't have the "outsider" appeal.

Ed. Neither has there ever been any indication that he's a racist of any kind.

[LeBrok]

Well...he is arrogant, short tempered, he is jealous that Mexico and China GDP are growing and said this has to stop, he finds it ok to punch people and get them out on a stretcher, he mimics handicapped people, he insulted women many times but they are ok if they got a good piece of ass, he said he dosent know who David Duke is......Lots of traits that resembel the Führer. (I dont think the Fuhrer ever insulted women so much tho) You just need a number of bad incidents to mobilise an army and he got all the ingredients. But if you agree with him in everything he will organise a party and be very nice to you and might also tell you he loves you.

There might be a case that Trump is a mild psychopath. It seems that he enjoys hurting people, like a bully.

[Fire Haired14]

@If Trump is Hitler, then 99% of humans are Hitler.

Everyone thinks with their emotions before their mind. Our pride or friends are important to us, so when someone insults them or competes against them, we want to attack them. Everyone, doesn't matter what your gender or age or personality, can turn into a savage animal when something important to them is threatened. When someone dis agrees with our politics or sports teams, the same emotions kick in.

The left and right is full of people high on emotion and ready to kill(not literally) their enemies(people who dis agree). The left has portrayed violence plenty of times. An "anti-violence" activist in Chicago was caught on camera throwing punches at a Trump supporter.

Trump uses these emotions for support. But to say these emotions are unique to Trump(I don't think he has them, I think he uses them for votes) or the right, is absolutely crazy.

[bicicleur]

His main problem as a candidate was that he destroyed himself with a lot of Republicans by a single gesture: embracing Obama when he came to New Jersey to inspect the hurricane damage. His other problem is the same problem that dogs all moderate Republicans.

Embracing Obama? At least that is a mistake I think Trump will never make.

[Boreas]

again, Erdogan shuts down the press, writes his own decrees, says Muslims are superior in everything, has his own 'Lions of Allah' storm troops , etc.

ridiculous comparison

and, by the way I never said I would vote for Trump
but I like what he does, kicking correct politicians and press on their ass

and By time way, I am comparing Erdoğan's attitude in his first two general election (I told it a few times in the previous posts) and Trump, not his current situation

before using strong words as ridiculous, be sure that you got it well my friend.

[Maleth]

Do you think I agree with him after all I told here?
But you should stop comparing anyone you don't like with Hitler.
Like I told you before, you're losing all credibility like that.
Unless of course, if you're a salesman like Trump.
Furthermore you're insulting the real victims of Hitler and the like.

I think instead of attacking me personally in each and every post repeating the same thing, it would be more interesting to explain of how you see nothing similar between Trumps attitude and that of Hitlers. Its ok to disagree but giving reasons will be helpful.

PS As far as I know I don't compare anyone I dont like with Hitler. Im not comparing Mr. Trump with Hitler because I dont like him, because I sincerely believe they have similar traits in their behavior. Why does it irritate you so much?

[Maleth]

There might be a case that Trump is a mild psychopath. It seems that he enjoys hurting people, like a bully.

It did pass from my mind, but what is worrisome is that you have a big number of people who actually applauds the behavior. :/

[Fire Haired14]

It did pass from my mind, but what is worrisome is that you have a big number of people who actually applauds the behavior. :/

Everyone has a little psychopath in them. Bullies are technically psychopaths, and there are billions of bullies in the world. Not everyone who has characteristics that fall under psychopaths automatically are horrible people. Trump is a dush though, I'm not defending him, just saying the word psychopath is miss used for normal behavior.