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Thread: Vote for a president of USA. 2016 election.

  1. #1726
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    I am not a USA citizen so I do not vote for a US president,

    but seems Baiden, manage to make it a derby,
    he make a big mistake at his campaign.
    and change the river bed.
    he choose a wrong man,

    and I said before few years,
    it was Hilary that make Trump president,
    today it might be Baiden choices that might make Trump president again.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Somebody said that it's not the job of police to defend the people against criminals, it's to defend the criminals from the people. The people, in righteous anger, will become vigilantes if they have no other choice and they will not respect criminals' rights.

    If the state cannot defend order, is has no right to rule.
    Just oversaw the discussion about guns and riots from, for me, tonight. Starting with Angela 'for the record' and especially 'the Europeans', 'I don't know anyone who has firearms.' Salento posted how it's quite easy to get them (and have it as a kind of assurance). And then it went of with Nordic Warrior (what's in a name) and ratchet fan.....

    Of course absolutely true 'If the state cannot defend order, is has no right to rule'. And indeed riots can not be tolerated.

    That also starts with the basic thing, the state must have a monopoly on violence. So no private citizens (unless for hunt or other exceptions) that get easy acces to guns. Away with it. Gun control. As long as the average American wants to have the right to own a gun, it will be used more often. I hope that the signal of Angela is right, hey Europeans it's not Wild West like you think...but seen the signals of other members?

    At the same time you have to lash the fire were it is started. Face it: discrimination/ segregation is still a fact in your society. Which populations suffer the most from the corona crisis? And it's also a fact that some policeman have really overacted. And within the police force discrimination is a thing (here also). And that doesn't mean those woke folks are per definition right, or that they have the right solution or whatsoever....

    Trump will play with the fears and angers and will offer again and again the authoritarian solution (like Anne Applebaum said). Fly the Feds in! The king of law and order!...his best straw for the reelection, and seeing the discussion ^^^ he will probably succeed.

    If this 'authoritarian' policy will be the solution I doubt it, but it examines 'the people in righteous anger' absolutely. Catch! says Trump, second term.
    Last edited by Northener; 30-08-20 at 12:56.

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    You can buy a house or apartment for 5 Euro and retire. No need to buy house insurance, if you are able to get it, cheaper to buy another house. Coming soon everywhere, pending the coming collapse. Brand name recognition, and reputation, important to some people.





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  4. #1729
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Usually, all you need is one day - Class + Test to get a State Permit to carry pistols and revolvers.

    thought very few people carry..., most people just want that option.

    and you don't need any class or test to buy weapons to keep at home, ... just a background check.
    I understand that, Salento, but despite what went on in NYC, I don't know anyone who has a gun in their house other than men who go hunting a couple of times a year.

    It's just not something that happens here. *

    What worries me is that it "could" happen here if these kinds of riots spread. The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the Democrat leaders, including Harris, who have been stoking the flames, and the Democrat governors and mayors who have refused to control it.

    Meanwhile, I see idiots on twitter blaming Trump. Can you imagine the uproar if he sent in the National Guard without a request from the states? So many Americans, even upper class Americans, don't even know the laws that govern this country.

    Have you seen the pictures of Kenosha and what they did to their own community? What possible sense did that make? In the name of Black Lives Matter they turned it into Beirut. The locals swear a lot of it was from outside people, and I hope it's true. It's certainly true that antifa people are moving from area to area trying to incite violence, and there always seem to be unsocialized young people around willing to be brainwashed, black or white.

    Daniel Patrick Moynihan was virtually crucified decades ago for publishing a paper proposing that the break down of the black family was the prime cause of the dysfunction in black communities. He was right, and that is now true of Hispanic and white families as well. "Conservative" values, and traditional families were passe. Well, this is the result: young people with no moral code, no respect for authority of any kind, no real concern even for their own communities. Anarchy reigns in some communities and I have no idea how we can reverse it with one party applauding the very causes and even the methods.

    Take a look at this: an idiot, no doubt "privileged" Hispanic woman has written a piece saying looting is a good idea for the redistribution of wealth. NPR PUBLISHED IT. Have some people gone mad? This is Mao's insane Cultural Revolution come to America.

    It's not as if this is the first time. Anyone remember Watts? It's just that it's spreading it seems, and that's because the Democrat leadership and the media are complicit or don't understand that they're unleashing the whirlwind.

    It just breaks my heart for the innocents caught up in this.

    *I understand it's different in the south/west and more rural areas, where it's part of the culture.
    Last edited by Angela; 30-08-20 at 16:44.


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  5. #1730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I understand that, Salento, but despite what went on in NYC, I don't know anyone who has a gun in their house other than men who go hunting a couple of times a year.

    It's just not something that happens here. *

    What worries me is that it "could" happen here if these kinds of riots spread. The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the Democrat leaders, including Harris, who have been stoking the flames, and the Democrat governors and mayors who have refused to control it.

    Meanwhile, I see idiots on twitter blaming Trump. Can you imagine the uproar if he sent in the National Guard without a request from the states? So many Americans, even upper class Americans, don't even know the laws that govern this country.

    Have you seen the pictures of Kenosha and what they did to their own community? What possible sense did that make? In the name of Black Lives Matter they turned it into Beirut. The locals swear a lot of it was from outside people, and I hope it's true. It's certainly true that antifa people are moving from area to area trying to incite violence, and there always seem to be unsocialized young people around willing to be brainwashed, black or white.

    Daniel Patrick Moynihan was virtually crucified decades ago for publishing a paper proposing that the break down of the black family was the prime cause of the dysfunction in black communities. He was right, and that is now true of Hispanic and white families as well. "Conservative" values, and traditional families were passe. Well, this is the result: young people with no moral code, no respect for authority of any kind, no real concern even for their own communities. Anarchy reigns in some communities and I have no idea how we can reverse it with one party applauding the very causes and even the methods.

    Take a look at this: an idiot, no doubt "privileged" Hispanic woman has written a piece saying looting is a good idea for the redistribution of wealth. NPR PUBLISHED IT. Have some people gone mad? This is Mao's insane Cultural Revolution come to America.

    It's not as if this is the first time. Anyone remember Watts? It's just that it's spreading it seems, and that's because the Democrat leadership and the media are complicit or don't understand that they're unleashing the whirlwind.

    It just breaks my heart for the innocents caught up in this.

    *I understand it's different in the south/west and more rural areas, where it's part of the culture.
    Just saw it on the Belgian news of the people that have current Corona 4 out of 10 live in the US and Brasil, no coincidental led by 'right wing populist'. Who initially neglected it and then came with actions that made it worse even into misleading the public about medicines (both Trump and Bolsonaro)....sad but true.

    For the rest:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/08/u...rnd/index.html

  6. #1731
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    ^^
    I fail to see how that's in any way responsive to what I posted.

    I guess if you have no defense of these radical leftists you switch the subject?

    Why don't you address what I posted? Do you support the kind of extreme left wing ideology pronounced here which says looting is a good way to redistribute wealth? That upset about one policeman doing something wrong justifies torching their own stores, doctor's offices, markets? Go ahead; I want to see you do it.

    The polls show the race tightening. Any more of this insanity and Trump will be re-elected, and the Democrats will have no one but themselves to blame for abandoning the working and lower middle class and adopting the insane rhetoric of BLM and the anti fa radicals.

    Btw, all those "protestors" and rioters, in actuality, marching in black neighborhoods don't wear masks; hardly anyone wears masks in those neighborhoods. Now ponder the effect of that on Covid numbers. Not that it's the only factor, of course, but it's certainly an important one. Also ponder the fact that blacks are more obese than whites, a known risk factor. Ponder that there might be genetic causes, as has already shown up in papers.

    If you would look at facts instead of spitting out ideological dogma you might understand things better.

  7. #1732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Daniel Patrick Moynihan was virtually crucified decades ago for publishing a paper proposing that the break down of the black family was the prime cause of the dysfunction in black communities. He was right, and that is now true of Hispanic and white families as well. "Conservative" values, and traditional families were passe. Well, this is the result: young people with no moral code, no respect for authority of any kind, no real concern even for their own communities. Anarchy reigns in some communities and I have no idea how we can reverse it with one party applauding the very causes and even the methods.
    I know he is is a typical cold war liberal flowing into neocons. But after he stated this in the sixties/seventies....but this made school in the US, why didn't this succeed in measures aimed at this dysfunction? I guess partly because this is simply complex....

    Moynihan:
    "The central conservative truth is that it is culture, not politics, that determines the success of a society. The central liberal truth is that politics can change a culture and save it from itself."

    ;)
    Last edited by Northener; 30-08-20 at 21:13.

  8. #1733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I know he is is a typical cold war liberal flowing into neocons. But after he stated this in the sixties/seventies....but this made school in the US, why didn't this succeed in measures aimed at this dysfunction? I guess partly because this si simply complex....

    Moynihan:
    "The central conservative truth is that it is culture, not politics, that determines the success of a society. The central liberal truth is that politics can change a culture and save it from itself."

    ;)
    Slavery started it. Marriage and pair bonding was destroyed. Women and their mates could be separated. Men had no ability to care for the children they sired.

    Reconstruction didn't help. Black women could get jobs easier than black men. Plus, the culture imported from Africa accepted that men could have multiple mates.

    Well meaning welfare programs helped to seal the deal. A single woman with children who couldn't work could get more money from the government than a black couple with a husband making minimum wage. It continued the culture of dependence which began with slavery.

    The crack epidemic, with cheap, easily available drugs sealed the deal.

    Now, young black girls and even Hispanic girls start having children out of wedlock and a stable partner when they're in their teens because it's OK in their culture. It shows someone wants them and that they're women. It's a status symbol, as it's a status symbol for the men to show how many baby momma's they have because it shows how fertile they are and how many women want them. Large percentages of the men refuse to wear condoms.

    Of course, this is possible because they know they won't starve. They'll get government housing, food stamps, medicaid for health treatment, a free cell phone, taxi transportation to doctors etc. etc. That's the government trying to help.

    Now, tell me what government program could stop this kind of dysfunction, what throwing money at it could do.

    I'm waiting breathlessly for you to tell me how the problem could be solved.

  9. #1734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Slavery started it. Marriage and pair bonding was destroyed. Women and their mates could be separated. Men had no ability to care for the children they sired.

    Reconstruction didn't help. Black women could get jobs easier than black men. Plus, the culture imported from Africa accepted that men could have multiple mates.

    Well meaning welfare programs helped to seal the deal. A single woman with children who couldn't work could get more money from the government than a black couple with a husband making minimum wage. It continued the culture of dependence which began with slavery.

    The crack epidemic, with cheap, easily available drugs sealed the deal.

    Now, young black girls and even Hispanic girls start having children out of wedlock and a stable partner when they're in their teens because it's OK in their culture. It shows someone wants them and that they're women. It's a status symbol, as it's a status symbol for the men to show how many baby momma's they have because it shows how fertile they are and how many women want them. Large percentages of the men refuse to wear condoms.

    Of course, this is possible because they know they won't starve. They'll get government housing, food stamps, medicaid for health treatment, a free cell phone, taxi transportation to doctors etc. etc. That's the government trying to help.

    Now, tell me what government program could stop this kind of dysfunction, what throwing money at it could do.

    I'm waiting breathlessly for you to tell me how the problem could be solved.
    What I said this is complex. Cultural patterns are difficult to influence.

    In my previous posting I wanted to start with slavery, but then it's easy for some to say, yeah blame it on the slavery.

    In the Netherlands this is known as the Caribe pattern, because people of the Surinam and the Antilles have the same. This also linked with the 'plantages' the slavery. I remember one of my fist colleagues, she came from Surinam and told me her family background in here case a mix of Chinese, Creool and Jewish plant owners and all what happened in the old days....

    Partly this phenomenon is also connected with this work of Christopher Lasch:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism

    Because it's since the sixties also quite common in 'the Western world'.

    I'm not explicit in this matter, I see advantages of communitarism; so strong ties, sense of belonging etc. I also see the shadows of strong ties, closed communities etc, people must be able to make their own lives. People lived in the past kind of pre-programmatic lives, that's gone, and that has partly positive sites (I mean NYC this is very well known I guess and 'New' or 'Old' Amsterdam doesn't make the difference in this respect).So I'm kind of middle of the road.

    And IMO in this matter it's practice what you preach. I have been divorced, new relationship, composed family life....so I'm the last one to give some preaches about this ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Just saw it on the Belgian news of the people that have current Corona 4 out of 10 live in the US and Brasil, no coincidental led by 'right wing populist'. Who initially neglected it and then came with actions that made it worse even into misleading the public about medicines (both Trump and Bolsonaro)....sad but true.

    For the rest:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/08/u...rnd/index.html
    And this is relevant how?

    And please tell us why guys like Andrew Cuomo don't deserve any blame. NY still has the most deaths.

  11. #1736
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    What I said this is complex. Cultural patterns are difficult to influence.

    In my previous posting I wanted to start with slavery, but then it's easy for some to say, yeah blame it on the slavery.

    In the Netherlands this is known as the Caribe pattern, because people of the Surinam and the Antilles have the same. This also linked with the 'plantages' the slavery. I remember one of my fist colleagues, she came from Surinam and told me her family background in here case a mix of Chinese, Creool and Jewish plant owners and all what happened in the old days....

    Partly this phenomenon is also connected with this work of Christopher Lasch:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism

    Because it's since the sixties also quite common in 'the Western world'.

    I'm not explicit in this matter, I see advantages of communitarism; so strong ties, sense of belonging etc. I also see the shadows of strong ties, closed communities etc, people must be able to make their own lives. People lived in the past kind of pre-programmatic lives, that's gone, and that has partly positive sites (I mean NYC this is very well known I guess and 'New' or 'Old' Amsterdam doesn't make the difference in this respect).So I'm kind of middle of the road.

    And IMO in this matter it's practice what you preach. I have been divorced, new relationship, composed family life....so I'm the last one to give some preaches about this ;)
    I'll say what you won't say but which is obvious from your post: there is no government program which can "fix" this. No amount of government money thrown at this, which is what the Democrats campaign on, will "fix" this. It's one of the reasons I don't vote Democrat or left anymore. They have no solutions except to throw money at it, and partly it's because they won't even admit where the problem lies.

    I'm not talking about divorce; surely you know that, although if you want my personal opinion, if there are children involved it should be avoided if at all possible. I'm assuming you don't have five children by five different mothers, none of whom you support, and it started in your teens.

    It also has nothing to do with being communitarian, or at least with having strong community ties per se. That's just an excuse. Italian culture is communitarian in a sense. I can't even imagine what my father would have done to me if he'd seen me behave in these ways, and my brother too for the other half of the equation It definitely wasn't his idea of how a real man behaves. Not that I would ever have considered it, because I was taught differently, as was my brother, and not even most importantly by the nuns and priests, but by the moral coaching and constant example of my parents. My mother, a deeply religious woman, practiced birth control. As she put it, if the Pope wants us to have as many children as will naturally come, he can give me enough money to support them. She drummed it into my head repeatedly that you don't have children if you can't feed them, give them a decent home, and give them enough attention. She also said repeatedly that it was a life long commitment and sacrifice where you had to put them first always, and if I wasn't willing to live that kind of sacrificial life that I shouldn't have them, and that would be just fine with her. Women weren't meant just to be breeding machines.

    I'll also take it that you don't agree with the far left rhetoric flooding our media that looting is a good way to redistribute income, and that everything would be just fine if no police patrolled the streets, and on and on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    And this is relevant how?

    And please tell us why guys like Andrew Cuomo don't deserve any blame. NY still has the most deaths.
    Relevant a fast and adequate reaction of the central government can make a difference (or not and in the case of Trump it was not....)

    I saw some press conferences of Cuomo, my impression was he is pretty hands on. And had to confront Trump a few times.

    NYC is a magnet, many international contacts, and dense populated....with some bad luck it's hit hard. Like it did.

    Indeed had Cuomo been there he had made a more bella figura. He had to run for president in stead of Biden....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'll say what you won't say but which is obvious from your post: there is no government program which can "fix" this. No amount of government money thrown at this, which is what the Democrats campaign on, will "fix" this. It's one of the reasons I don't vote Democrat or left anymore. They have no solutions except to throw money at it, and partly it's because they won't even admit where the problem lies.

    I'm not talking about divorce; surely you know that, although if you want my personal opinion, if there are children involved it should be avoided if at all possible. I'm assuming you don't have five children by five different mothers, none of whom you support, and it started in your teens.

    It also has nothing to do with being communitarian, or at least with having strong community ties per se. That's just an excuse. Italian culture is communitarian in a sense. I can't even imagine what my father would have done to me if he'd seen me behave in these ways, and my brother too for the other half of the equation It definitely wasn't his idea of how a real man behaves. Not that I would ever have considered it, because I was taught differently, as was my brother, and not even most importantly by the nuns and priests, but by the moral coaching and constant example of my parents. My mother, a deeply religious woman, practiced birth control. As she put it, if the Pope wants us to have as many children as will naturally come, he can give me enough money to support them. She drummed it into my head repeatedly that you don't have children if you can't feed them, give them a decent home, and give them enough attention. She also said repeatedly that it was a life long commitment and sacrifice where you had to put them first always, and if I wasn't willing to live that kind of sacrificial life that I shouldn't have them, and that would be just fine with her. Women weren't meant just to be breeding machines.

    I'll also take it that you don't agree with the far left rhetoric flooding our media that looting is a good way to redistribute income, and that everything would be just fine if no police patrolled the streets, and on and on.
    The last one is out of question don't even have to answer that...

    When you state the 'culture' is 'the problem' what is your 'solution'?

    I think that a broader middle class (that's education and also more social-economic based) as it was for long time the goal in the US (like in Europe) in post war until the seventies the best solution...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa...n_middle_class

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/b...we-have-to-go/

    Countries with a broad and broadening middle class are the best in my opinion.

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I understand that, Salento, but despite what went on in NYC, I don't know anyone who has a gun in their house other than men who go hunting a couple of times a year.

    It's just not something that happens here. *

    What worries me is that it "could" happen here if these kinds of riots spread. The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the Democrat leaders, including Harris, who have been stoking the flames, and the Democrat governors and mayors who have refused to control it.

    Meanwhile, I see idiots on twitter blaming Trump. Can you imagine the uproar if he sent in the National Guard without a request from the states? So many Americans, even upper class Americans, don't even know the laws that govern this country.

    Have you seen the pictures of Kenosha and what they did to their own community? What possible sense did that make? In the name of Black Lives Matter they turned it into Beirut. The locals swear a lot of it was from outside people, and I hope it's true. It's certainly true that antifa people are moving from area to area trying to incite violence, and there always seem to be unsocialized young people around willing to be brainwashed, black or white.

    Daniel Patrick Moynihan was virtually crucified decades ago for publishing a paper proposing that the break down of the black family was the prime cause of the dysfunction in black communities. He was right, and that is now true of Hispanic and white families as well. "Conservative" values, and traditional families were passe. Well, this is the result: young people with no moral code, no respect for authority of any kind, no real concern even for their own communities. Anarchy reigns in some communities and I have no idea how we can reverse it with one party applauding the very causes and even the methods.

    Take a look at this: an idiot, no doubt "privileged" Hispanic woman has written a piece saying looting is a good idea for the redistribution of wealth. NPR PUBLISHED IT. Have some people gone mad? This is Mao's insane Cultural Revolution come to America.

    It's not as if this is the first time. Anyone remember Watts? It's just that it's spreading it seems, and that's because the Democrat leadership and the media are complicit or don't understand that they're unleashing the whirlwind.

    It just breaks my heart for the innocents caught up in this.

    *I understand it's different in the south/west and more rural areas, where it's part of the culture.
    the violence and riots portrayed by the Media don’t reflect what goes on in most of the Country,

    Everybody is super nice with each other and with me,

    I don’t see anything resembling what’s on TV,

    ... these few troubled areas are pretty much constricted to specific places, ... hope it ends soon :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why I left the left: from a former "The Guardian" editorial writer.

    It just showed up on my youtube feed. I didn't know her at all, but it sounded interesting.

    The gist of her "philosophy" is in the first 13 minutes.

    I swear to God, it's like listening to myself think and speak. Of course, I think it's brilliant. :)

    Also almost like an English version of Oriana Fallaci. Wonderful.



    Ed. I've looked her up and I don't agree with a lot of her ideas, but I stand by those 13 minutes.
    Thanks again!

    Based on the first 13 min I see some essential differences between my stance and what she describes. A short comparison on what she states:
    - a 'completely change' vs possibilities, fair share, intention 'to grow in', reforms in stead of revolt;
    - 'born in sin' and 'perfect solutions' (that are IMO kind of purist thoughts) vs messy, muddling through;
    - 'end of nation state' vs nation state is inevitable, a res publica can't be global.

    John Horton elaborates here, based on the conservatism of Oakeshott, more or less my kind of social democracy.
    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...urnalCode=epta

    I know that many other directions on the left come closer to her descriptions. Not necessary mines.
    Last edited by Northener; 31-08-20 at 16:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    The last one is out of question don't even have to answer that...

    When you state the 'culture' is 'the problem' what is your 'solution'?

    I think that a broader middle class (that's education and also more social-economic based) as it was for long time the goal in the US (like in Europe) in post war until the seventies the best solution...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa...n_middle_class

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/b...we-have-to-go/

    Countries with a broad and broadening middle class are the best in my opinion.
    I was just trying to point out what I mean by "radical left wing rhetoric" in the American context of 2020. This kind of twaddle is being proposed and promoted by the "intelligentsia" of the universities, places like MSNBC, and radicals in the Democrat party.

    I never meant to imply that this is typical of left wing thought in the Netherlands or even of far left wing thought there. I have no idea whether that's the case.

    The solution, imo, lies in the hands of the minority communities themselves. First they have to face the problems and acknowledge that this is not the result of "systemic" racism, but of cultural choices being made in their communities. Then, perhaps through the Black Churches, which are very powerful, they need to do outreach, request some soul searching, provide, indeed with government funding perhaps, parenting classes, etc. etc.

    Then, along with Kemp, I've always been in favor of locating free enterprise zones within minority communities. Bring the jobs and the training there, with strict standards, but paying a living wage. Also, give a premium in benefits to fathers who are living with and trying to raise their children.

    I don't see the Democrat party proposing any of this.

    They just throw money at it, and I know where a lot of that "pandemic money" has gone: to alcohol and drug purchases. I still have enough contacts to know what the police are seeing on the street.

    It should never have been cash payments. It should have been vouchers for rent, food, etc.

    Sometimes the sheer stupidity of politicians is astounding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I was just trying to point out what I mean by "radical left wing rhetoric" in the American context of 2020. This kind of twaddle is being proposed and promoted by the "intelligentsia" of the universities, places like MSNBC, and radicals in the Democrat party.

    I never meant to imply that this is typical of left wing thought in the Netherlands or even of far left wing thought there. I have no idea whether that's the case.

    The solution, imo, lies in the hands of the minority communities themselves. First they have to face the problems and acknowledge that this is not the result of "systemic" racism, but of cultural choices being made in their communities. Then, perhaps through the Black Churches, which are very powerful, they need to do outreach, request some soul searching, provide, indeed with government funding perhaps, parenting classes, etc. etc.

    Then, along with Kemp, I've always been in favor of locating free enterprise zones within minority communities. Bring the jobs and the training there, with strict standards, but paying a living wage. Also, give a premium in benefits to fathers who are living with and trying to raise their children.

    I don't see the Democrat party proposing any of this.

    They just throw money at it, and I know where a lot of that "pandemic money" has gone: to alcohol and drug purchases. I still have enough contacts to know what the police are seeing on the street.

    It should never have been cash payments. It should have been vouchers for rent, food, etc.

    Sometimes the sheer stupidity of politicians is astounding.
    So black men should get a premium in benefits for taking care of their own children? Something white men and asian men do for the most part without any handouts.

    Also that'll just lead to people having more children than they should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I was just trying to point out what I mean by "radical left wing rhetoric" in the American context of 2020. This kind of twaddle is being proposed and promoted by the "intelligentsia" of the universities, places like MSNBC, and radicals in the Democrat party.

    I never meant to imply that this is typical of left wing thought in the Netherlands or even of far left wing thought there. I have no idea whether that's the case.

    The solution, imo, lies in the hands of the minority communities themselves. First they have to face the problems and acknowledge that this is not the result of "systemic" racism, but of cultural choices being made in their communities. Then, perhaps through the Black Churches, which are very powerful, they need to do outreach, request some soul searching, provide, indeed with government funding perhaps, parenting classes, etc. etc.

    Then, along with Kemp, I've always been in favor of locating free enterprise zones within minority communities. Bring the jobs and the training there, with strict standards, but paying a living wage. Also, give a premium in benefits to fathers who are living with and trying to raise their children.

    I don't see the Democrat party proposing any of this.

    They just throw money at it, and I know where a lot of that "pandemic money" has gone: to alcohol and drug purchases. I still have enough contacts to know what the police are seeing on the street.

    It should never have been cash payments. It should have been vouchers for rent, food, etc.

    Sometimes the sheer stupidity of politicians is astounding.
    IMO it's not OR but AND. The community has basically a role but (admitted from a distance) there is still 'white' racism and segregation in the US. The police is overacting and there is racism in the police too....so people have their own responsibility but when they are blocked they are not able to make progress.

    Trump is firing it all and is not downsizing it, he aims for example also at the woman of the suburbs, when they become shaky and he presents himself as mister law and order, then may be the people forget his 'Blunders' (dixit Cuomo). The man is one big spinning machine. Or as my father would say in his dialect 'hai is nait in d'eerste leugen bursten' ('he didn't burst in his first lie' ;)

    Add about the police that's a problem in NW Europe too see this about the Belgian police, disgusting:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53864100
    Last edited by Northener; 31-08-20 at 21:29.

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    Yes, if you graduate from High School you get rewarded. If you don't have kids out of wedlock - no Father figure - you get rewarded. I'm absolutely fine with this. The African American communities will not improve until these stats improve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    IMO it's not OR but AND. The community has basically a role but (admitted from a distance) there is still 'white' racism and segregation in the US. The police is overacting and there is racism in the police too....so people have their own responsibility but when they are blocked they are not able to make progress.

    Trump is firing it all and is not downsizing it, he aims for example also at the woman of the suburbs, when they become shaky and he presents himself as mister law and order, then may be the people forget his 'Blunders' (dixit Cuomo). The man is one big spinning machine. Or as my father would say in his dialect 'hai is nait in d'eerste leugen bursten' ('he didn't burst in his first lie' ;)

    Add about the police that's a problem in NW Europe too see this about the Belgian police, disgusting:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53864100
    In every time and in every place you will have the tendency for trouble when groups, like the police or the military, are given peculiar power. They may never misuse that power, but the potential is always there so they must be closely watched and regulated. One problem we have in America is that police unions have become so strong that effective regulation is often difficult.

    The trouble I have with BLM is that its rise marked a great possibility for people of all backgrounds to get together to look at how the power of the police has been misused (at some times and in some places). However, the movement wanted it to be all about just their one group and so lost the opportunity to gain allies. It is a lost opportunity of epic proportions.

    And, northerner, you may have missed this, but the extremists don't say that white Americans are all racists, they say all whites, everywhere and at every time are racists. We are from birth sinners without redemption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorquest View Post
    Yes, if you graduate from High School you get rewarded. If you don't have kids out of wedlock - no Father figure - you get rewarded. I'm absolutely fine with this. The African American communities will not improve until these stats improve.

    Its up to them to improve their situation. Not to tax other people to reward people for something that should be common sense. Why stop at blacks? Do hispanics and native americans qualify? What about poor Whites and asians? If not all you'll do is create racial resentment.

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    What nobody has touched on is that "Antifa"-- an openly Marxist organization-- is using racial discord to pit U.S. citizens and residents against each other. This is standard operating procedure for Communist Revolutionaries. Divide and conquer. Antifa is using BLM (both the movement and the incorporated entity) to further their attempt at a radical takeover.

    In Portland this weekend there was a straight up political assignation in the street. I watched the at-the-scene video numerous times and the shooter, Michael Forest Reinoehl, gunned down a man solely because he was told the eventual victim was a Trump supporter. Reinoehl identifies as being "100% Antifa".

    But I would like to focus on solutions. Yes the police in the U.S. have had some serious problems, but they are improving. Let's keep the ball rolling. I like the idea of having all active police officers equipped with a camera and recording device when on duty AT ALL TIMES-- no exceptions. If there is an incident of interest... footage should be release immediately to avoid potential cover-up ploys. All recordings are property of the public and not of the police departments. Currently the senior officers decide what gets released and when. All on-the-beat police should get a sizeable increase in pay for having to work with these intrusive conditions.

    And more importantly, I am for the disbanding of all police unions. This would solve a lot of the "injustice hangover" we have had really since the days of Jim Crow. The unions swept a lot of improper behavior under the rug over the years.

    But this item will beat all the rest in terms of positive outcome results. Simple but effective... DISBAND ALL THE PUBLIC TEACHERS UNIONS. Our public schools have been responsible for fostering this dangerous Marxist dogma for years-- really on the down low-- and I put much of the blame for what we are seeing now on their whacky and unbalanced liberal teachings.

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    The unfair treatment of African-Americans in the U.S. stems back to this one simple factor-- the destruction of the family unit. This must be addressed. Everything else is a band-aid.

    Unfortunately, we as a society happen to be facing a Marxist uprising. And Communist takeover tactics are effective because they target the current societal power structures in order to weaken them so that their "benevolent state" can swoop in and fully replace all other systems.

    One of the biggest hurdles to Marxist regimes is the nuclear family. Mom, Dad, and the kids. Organized religion is another. Small business and capitalism are also obvious barriers to successful state takeover.

    What I'm trying to say is that we have to shed Antifa and fast, because they are doing everything possible to harm ALL family units... black, brown, white, even green and polka dot if they could find them. Healthy and successful family units make for sickly and unsuccessful Communist Movements.

    I'm biased here, but the most successful way historically to build back the family unit is through The Church.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    In every time and in every place you will have the tendency for trouble when groups, like the police or the military, are given peculiar power. They may never misuse that power, but the potential is always there so they must be closely watched and regulated. One problem we have in America is that police unions have become so strong that effective regulation is often difficult.

    The trouble I have with BLM is that its rise marked a great possibility for people of all backgrounds to get together to look at how the power of the police has been misused (at some times and in some places). However, the movement wanted it to be all about just their one group and so lost the opportunity to gain allies. It is a lost opportunity of epic proportions.

    And, northerner, you may have missed this, but the extremists don't say that white Americans are all racists, they say all whites, everywhere and at every time are racists. We are from birth sinners without redemption.
    Thanks shissem and I agree with your view.


    It's like the French say: les extrêmes se touchent....

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    In group out group -favoritism, preference for ones tribe like BLM manifesting in wanting more power and resource's to expand control over competition. Detroit started out as Native American Indigenous tribes, change to European tribes and now is predominantly African descendant. There has been no peaceful cohabitation in 60 years of Democratic rule. Same happened in Haiti where child slavery exists. Or ask any Guyanese about the control of the police and politics Or ask a Srilankan about Jatt.

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