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Thread: Vote for a president of USA. 2016 election.

  1. #2026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Let's see how the next couple years go for the Democrats. Because the mid-term elections are coming up in 2022, and a lot is on the line. Biden could be blamed for losing the House for the Democrats, if he doesn't do a good job. If that happens, the GOP will control 2/3rds of the branches of government in the USA. Ultimately, that could lead to a real impeachment, if some scandal where to occur. Unlike the symbolic indictment produced by the Democrats for Trump.
    The Democrats have a lot of work to do and I forget who had said it before, but they keep making the same mistakes each time around. Perhaps they can figure out how to prevent those mistakes and improve. In regards to the "symbolic indictment", can you really call it that when the GOP sort of had the final say considering they were the majority at the time (and likely this time around too)? With the way they've conducted themselves these past 4 years...

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    The Democrats have a lot of work to do and I forget who had said it before, but they keep making the same mistakes each time around. Perhaps they can figure out how to prevent those mistakes and improve. In regards to the "symbolic indictment", can you really call it that when the GOP sort of had the final say considering they were the majority at the time (and likely this time around too)? With the way they've conducted themselves these past 4 years...
    I call it symbolic, because he was never actually impeached; only by the House. But he was not by the Republican-controlled Senate, so it was really nothing more than political theater. Trump is currently serving out the rest of his full 4-year term.

    I think if Biden wants to work with the GOP he will have to alienate the progressive-wing of the Democrats (i.e. AOC, Bernie, etc.)

    Biden is a corporatist, that will work for the interests of K-street (i.e. Corporate Lobbyists). Thus, I think he will get their interests secured, while compromising with fiscally-conservative Republicans.

    This election is actually a big blow to the progressives. The true-power elite of the Democrats are neo-liberals that support globalism in order to serve business interests, and keep the cost of goods low for consumers. They are similar to neoconservatives, with the exception of their positions on certain social issues. Both are willing to wage war to protect and expand their interests as well.

  3. #2028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I call it symbolic, because he was never actually impeached; only by the House. But he was not by the Republican-controlled Senate, so it was really nothing more than political theater. Trump is currently serving out the rest of his full 4-year term.

    I think if Biden wants to work with the GOP he will have to alienate the progressive-wing of the Democrats (i.e. AOC, Bernie, etc.)

    Biden is a corporatist, that will work for the interests of K-street (i.e. Corporate Lobbyists). Thus, I think he will get their interests secured, while compromising with fiscally-conservative Republicans.

    This election is actually a big blow to the progressives. The true-power elite of the Democrats are neo-liberals that support globalism in order to serve business interests, and keep the cost of goods low for consumers. They are similar to neoconservatives, with the exception of their positions on certain social issues. Both are willing to wage war to protect and expand their interests as well.
    He will probably continue doing a lot of what worked for Trump:
    https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/no-g...vows-1.5191313
    If you search this forum for "blood type", "rhesus negative" or "rh negative", you will probably see my posts.

  4. #2029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Result up until now: the blablabla big bubble has burst....

    But the undermining soundbites (fraud! stolen!) have already done their job.
    A lot can happen in two months. I watched France24 in the last couple of days to get an idea what type of "news" Europe eats.
    I wouldn't know where to start with the misinformation. Not just about the election, but also international news regarding Ethiopia where I lived for 3 years before moving to Thailand. They make you feel wise if you believe what they say. The Trump rally wasn't 1,000 people. It was many more. I know people who attended. Whatever image you have over what the "American voter" wants, I encourage you to read up on why having a Constitutional Republic ("if you can keep it") is so important. The need of the worker in Nebraska who has a family to feed is not less important than the single waiter in LA who doesn't like Trump's "tone".

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    A lot can happen in two months. I watched France24 in the last couple of days to get an idea what type of "news" Europe eats.
    I wouldn't know where to start with the misinformation. Not just about the election, but also international news regarding Ethiopia where I lived for 3 years before moving to Thailand. They make you feel wise if you believe what they say. The Trump rally wasn't 1,000 people. It was many more. I know people who attended. Whatever image you have over what the "American voter" wants, I encourage you to read up on why having a Constitutional Republic ("if you can keep it") is so important. The need of the worker in Nebraska who has a family to feed is not less important than the single waiter in LA who doesn't like Trump's "tone".
    Of course everyone lives (nowadays) in some kind of bubble. But I think you must not underestimate how close these elections are watched, at least in my country (the Netherlands). In my view this is in the bigger European countries (like Germany) somewhat less the case, but the last months you get the idea if we are a kind of 'extra US state'. It was mostly in the opening lines on the news and on prime time talk shows it was very prominent! And of course channels like CNN (standard on our cable network) and MSNBC and Fox were during the election live on the web (now they are not live any longer). The newspapers were full of news and lots of background/context about the US elections. You can discuss about the bias, but the information about as such was widespread and available here... we could not miss it! ;)

  6. #2031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    And of course channels like CNN (standard on our cable network) and MSNBC and Fox were during the election live on the web (now they are not live any longer). The newspapers were full of news and lots of background/context about the US elections. You can discuss about the bias, but the information about as such was widespread and available here... we could not miss it! ;)
    That is my biggest concern. Yes, you do get information but mixed with misinformation. The same thing happens in the U.S. If people had a channel with only misinformation, they would catch on, but when there is enough real info and then a ton of misleading bias, it is far too easy to be mislead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I call it symbolic, because he was never actually impeached; only by the House. But he was not by the Republican-controlled Senate, so it was really nothing more than political theater. Trump is currently serving out the rest of his full 4-year term.

    I think if Biden wants to work with the GOP he will have to alienate the progressive-wing of the Democrats (i.e. AOC, Bernie, etc.)

    Biden is a corporatist, that will work for the interests of K-street (i.e. Corporate Lobbyists). Thus, I think he will get their interests secured, while compromising with fiscally-conservative Republicans.

    This election is actually a big blow to the progressives. The true-power elite of the Democrats are neo-liberals that support globalism in order to serve business interests, and keep the cost of goods low for consumers. They are similar to neoconservatives, with the exception of their positions on certain social issues. Both are willing to wage war to protect and expand their interests as well.
    That's not symbolic it was blocked....by power play.

    I agree with you about Biden and his 'soft kind of neoliberalism'. That will be the big thing, the reminder for the Democrats is that they have lost the blue wall (2016), from upbringing Biden still has affinity with blue collar workers, but that was of a previous generation...;) And he is a lifetime Washington man so pampered by lobbyist.
    Last edited by Northener; 17-11-20 at 18:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    That is my biggest concern. Yes, you do get information but mixed with misinformation. The same thing happens in the U.S. If people had a channel with only misinformation, they would catch on, but when there is enough real info and then a ton of misleading bias, it is far too easy to be mislead.
    Everyone is biased. But if you are able to follow from MSNBC over CNN to fox, read lots of different newspaper and magazines, I guess your are able to have a good wel underlined opinion.The thing that is happening in the US, but also outside is that extreme partisanship.

    Especially Trump(ist) aimed at punches below the belt IMO very 'irrational'. And then you immediately the reaction "leftist moralist". Ok that's the case. But is that all? I like debate, but a debate not to aim to punch one another beneath the belt.... Debate may be heated, witty, hard but fair! All nice and good. But ad hominem is so nasty...What I see is a fire of suspicion, mistrust, conspiracy theory, it's all inflammatory and nasty firetown. In the end it's cynical and undermining...Is this so weird to have difficulties with that?

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    ........

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    That is my biggest concern. Yes, you do get information but mixed with misinformation. The same thing happens in the U.S. If people had a channel with only misinformation, they would catch on, but when there is enough real info and then a ton of misleading bias, it is far too easy to be mislead.
    May be the Portugese politicologist Bruno Macaes got a point here, De Groene Amsterdammer 11/11, Google Translate:

    That situation can only be understood through the understanding that the US has become its own civilization. And not one that is ready for autumn again. The history of civilizations is usually very long, and that of the US is very young. The US is therefore not concerned with its decline, Maçães suggests, but still with its rise: a young country that is mapping its own path, leading away from Europe.
    The unique and fierce American politics, including Trumpism, is, according to Maçães, a prime symptom of this. Trumpism is not a paragon of a country undermining its own values, but of a country shaping its own. "This Enlightenment prodigy may not hesitate to throw off Western liberal principles if it becomes convinced that they have been refuted by time and experience," he wrote in his book. "If the West falters, America will want to become less Western. If the center of power in the world moves away from the West, America will too. "
    ...
    In his book, Maçães analyzes this burgeoning civilization and its political culture from a broad perspective, from political subcontractors and philosophers to poets, architects and characters in Easy Rider. That culture is very difficult for Europeans to understand, Maçães believes, because they always think they recognize what is happening in the US, while they do not really understand the underlying sentiments. For example, what Americans understand by "freedom" is fundamentally different than it is for Europeans. Nor do Europeans really understand the role of religion, the death penalty, gun ownership and other matters.
    That also applies to American politics. For example, for the role that political narratives and the creation of stories play in this. "That world of storytelling looks very strange to Europeans," says Maçães. "There are so many different stories in America and stories that overlap. In recent weeks there has been so much interest in the idea that Trump would commit a coup. You can always find some pretty unlikely stories that are taken seriously in the American context. If you want to analyze them, you have to keep a certain amount of irony and distance and realize that such stories should not be taken literally. You can see that now: many Republicans accept Trump's tale of fake elections while they don't really believe in mass fraud.

    ...
    And because American politics has acquired strong elements of entertainment and fantasy, it has allowed for more extreme behavior, things that would be beyond the bounds of the possible in a European democracy. We saw the president in a speech on election night saying that fraud was being committed and that he wanted the vote to be stopped. If you saw such a speech in Europe or other parts of the world, you would conclude that a coup was taking place and that there was no turning back from that point.The interesting thing about America is, it's a place where those things do happen, but they can't be taken literally. There is a great element of fantasy, of role-play, that you have to keep an eye on.

  11. #2036
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    May be the Portugese politicologist Bruno Macaes got a point here, De Groene Amsterdammer 11/11, Google Translate:
    Thank you for that, I agree with much of what he said. I do want to clarify though that when we talk about voter fraud that significantly altered the outcome of the election, it doesn't necessarily require a "liberal conspiracy". I am focused on the many who have taken it upon themselves to "make mistakes" which add up to a degree that has to be properly investigated. If this doesn't happen, it will set a dangerous precedent for all future elections.

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    Another thing that I would like to point out that I consider absolutely disgusting is that our President is being "fact-checked" on several American-based social media outlets. If you want to compare Trump to Putin or Xi, you must be joking. This is absolutely embarrassing not to Trump, but the nation. It also goes against the freedom of press as a whole. We are the press if we choose to. This is not about the press. It is about chosen networks that are now able to come together and discredit someone in the oval office.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    The Democrats have a lot of work to do and I forget who had said it before, but they keep making the same mistakes each time around. Perhaps they can figure out how to prevent those mistakes and improve. In regards to the "symbolic indictment", can you really call it that when the GOP sort of had the final say considering they were the majority at the time (and likely this time around too)? With the way they've conducted themselves these past 4 years...
    Every time the Democrats elect a president they are handed a shitshow to solve. 2008 was the Great Recession 2020 the Great Pandemic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ........

    Is the Nazi a right or left wing ......as they term themselves as socialists National Socialist German Workers' Party

    seems left wing to me ...................but extreme left and extreme right are neighbours in the circle of politics
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Every time the Democrats elect a president they are handed a shitshow to solve. 2008 was the Great Recession 2020 the Great Pandemic.
    don’t feel sorry for the Democrats yet, ... we still don’t know who won the election ... Let's hope it's not them that have to solve your problems ... with my money :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    don’t feel sorry for the Democrats yet, ... we still don’t know who won the election ... Let's hope it's not them that have to solve your problems ... with my money :)
    You mean Trump trying to get the state legislators in Michigan to overthrow the voters will by appointing the electors. If that's not a coup I don't know what is short of having the military overthrow the government. I mean why have presidential elections if the legislators can overturn the election results.

    It's your money no matter who is in office. In one case you are subsidizing oil and coal companies and big farma (not Pharma) in the other solar companies.

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    I don't know what the big issue is.......he has to declare , ....on the earliest day, on the 14th of December

    He is milking the glory of the 2 x covid cures created.....which will go down in history as under his presidency

    he is following the law of the election...........he runs the country until 20th of January 2021

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I don't know what the big issue is.......he has to declare , ....on the earliest day, on the 14th of December

    He is milking the glory of the 2 x covid cures created.....which will go down in history as under his presidency

    he is following the law of the election...........he runs the country until 20th of January 2021
    Meanwhile, he's doing his best by trying to overturn the results of the election. I have absolutely no problem with recounts, but recounts are only triggered by a certain threshold like Georgia. Georgia is about to or has certified the election there. Even in Wisconsin although I have a harder time understanding that. Basta!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    You mean Trump trying to get the state legislators in Michigan to overthrow the voters will by appointing the electors. If that's not a coup I don't know what is short of having the military overthrow the government. I mean why have presidential elections if the legislators can overturn the election results.

    It's your money no matter who is in office. In one case you are subsidizing oil and coal companies and big farma (not Pharma) in the other solar companies.
    ... it’s more of a counter coup ... to restore the will of the people

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    Words have consequences:
    Members of a Michigan militia group had more planned than just kidnapping the state's governor.

    Last month, the FBI discovered a plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D) and try her for "treason," arresting 14 militia members allegedly involved in the effort. But beyond that task, court filings also reveal the men planned to publicly execute other public officials, or if all else failed, burn down the state house entirely, ABC7 Chicago reports.
    While just 14 men have been arrested in the plot so far, they had a "Plan B" that "involved a takeover of the Michigan capitol building by 200 combatants who would stage a week-long series of televised executions of public officials," ABC7 reports. Plan C involved burning down the statehouse with its legislators locked inside, "leaving no survivors," ABC7 continues. These plots all unfolded as Whitmer and Michigan's government implemented lockdowns to stop the spread of COVID-19.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/michigan-...180819334.html

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    Now this scary to me, he risks Civil War:

    Brad Brooks, Nathan Layne and Tim ReidFri, November 20, 2020, 7:07 AM EST






    By Brad Brooks, Nathan Layne and Tim Reid
    SUNDOWN, Texas (Reuters) - Brett Fryar is like many mainstream Republicans. A 50-year-old chiropractor in this west Texas town, he owns a small business. He has two undergraduate degrees and a master’s degree, in organic chemistry. He attends Southcrest Baptist Church in nearby Lubbock, where he has previously taught Sunday school and bible studies.
    Fryar didn’t much like Donald Trump at first, during the U.S. president’s 2016 campaign. He voted for Texas Senator Ted Cruz in the Republican primaries.
    Now, Fryar says he would go to war for Trump. He has joined the newly formed South Plains Patriots, a group of a few hundred members that includes a “reactionary” force of about three dozen - including Fryar and his son, Caleb - who conduct firearms training.
    - ADVERTISEMENT -
    Nothing will convince Fryar and many others here in Sundown - including the town’s mayor, another Patriots member - that Democrat Joe Biden won the Nov. 3 presidential election fairly. They believe Trump’s stream of election-fraud allegations and say they’re preparing for the possibility of a “civil war” with the American political left.
    "If President Trump comes out and says: 'Guys, I have irrefutable proof of fraud, the courts won't listen, and I'm now calling on Americans to take up arms,' we would go," said Fryar, wearing a button-down shirt, pressed slacks and a paisley tie during a recent interview at his office.
    The unshakable trust in Trump in this town of about 1,400 residents reflects a national phenomenon among many Republicans, despite the absence of evidence in a barrage of post-election lawsuits by the president and his allies. About half of Republicans polled by Reuters/Ipsos said Trump “rightfully won” the election but had it stolen from him in systemic fraud favoring Biden, according to a survey conducted between Nov. 13 and 17. Just 29% of Republicans said Biden rightfully won. Other polls since the election have reported that an even higher proportion - up to 80% - of Republicans trust Trump’s baseless fraud narrative.
    Trump’s legal onslaught has so far flopped, with judges quickly dismissing many cases and his lawyers dropping or withdrawing from others. None of the cases contain allegations - much less evidence - that are likely to invalidate enough votes to overturn the election, election experts say.
    And yet the election-theft claims are proving politically potent. All but a handful of Republican lawmakers have backed Trump’s fraud claims or stayed silent, effectively freezing the transition of power as the president refuses to concede. Trump has succeeded in sowing further public distrust in the media, which typically calls elections, and undermined citizens’ faith in the state and local election officials who underpin American democracy.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-repub...120755031.html




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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... it’s more of a counter coup ... to restore the will of the people
    That's indeed a classic one....to dismantle democracy with a lip service to the will of the people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ........
    I heard Biden is putting a few people from this organization into his administration:

    Funding[edit]

    For fiscal year 2013, CSIS had an operating revenue of US$32.3 million. The sources were 32% corporate, 29% foundation, 19% government, 9% individuals, 5% endowment, and 6% other. CSIS had operating expenses of US$32.2 million for 2013 — 78% for programs, 16% for administration, and 6% for development.[55]
    In September 2014, The New York Times reported that the United Arab Emirates had donated a sum greater than $1 million to the organization. Additionally, CSIS has received an undisclosed amount of funding from Japan through the government-funded Japan External Trade Organization, as well as from Norway. After being contacted by the Times, CSIS released a list of foreign state donors, listing 13 governments including those of Germany and China.[56] The Center for Strategic and International Studies CSIS lists major funding from defense contractors such as Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, and General Atomics.[57]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center...tional_Studies
    Shouldn't it bother people that they are bankrolled by foreign governments, including our greatest rival? As well as defense contractors?

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    ^^
    Foreign Powers Buy Influence at Think Tanks

    https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/u..._r=1&referrer=

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I heard Biden is putting a few people from this organization into his administration:



    Shouldn't it bother people that they are bankrolled by foreign governments, including our greatest rival? As well as defense contractors?
    You know that they do studies for those governments? They are a consulting group just like the Heritage Foundation. Where does the Heritage Foundation gets its funding? The Koch Brothers? There have been plenty of government functionaries that came from the Heritage Foundation and other such right wing groups during the last administration and previous Republican administrations. Should we investigate them also?

    I have no problem labeling all of these Washington think tanks as lobbyists. If they accept money from organization or countries then they should be labeled as such.

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