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Thread: R1a-Z93 in Yamnaya

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Those Scythians, according to Aristotle, had considerably lighter skin than the Greeks (who in turn were considerably lighter than Ethiopians and Egyptians). I don't know if that means something. Probably most would expect it. But I mentioned it because you said they were mixed. Maybe. I don't know, but they may have looked like modern Eastern Europeans to some extent.
    They were mixed, in the same sense modern Europeans are mixed. But I mean, it had been like 2,000 years since those admixture events had occurred. So, I wouldn't consider Sycthians very mixed. They definitely had no idea where they themselves came from. I believe Heroduts asked them, and I think they thought they came from Turkey. They had no knowledge of geography, so as far as they knew they were just as native to Central Asia as Turks were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Those Scythians, according to Aristotle, had considerably lighter skin than the Greeks (who in turn were considerably lighter than Ethiopians and Egyptians). I don't know if that means something. Probably most would expect it. But I mentioned it because you said they were mixed. Maybe. I don't know, but they may have looked like modern Eastern Europeans to some extent.
    According to the ancient Greeks, the Western Iranians like the Medes and Persians who called themselves ARYANS were darker than the Greeks.

    Scythians were lighter because they were not 'real' Iranians and came from the Northern Eurasia. No matter what race you are, Mongoloid or Europoid, if you're from the NORTH you're not really dark.

    Greeks and ancient West Iranians were much darker, like people in the Yamnaya Horizon and WHG. (WHG, CHG, Yamnaya, Maykop were all dark skinned). All those people were more 'Caucasoid'. FIRST Caucasoid folks were darker skinned than Mongoloid Northern EurAsians.



    Think of Brazil and Portugal. In both countries Portuguese is spoken. But Portugues is from Portugal.

    And now EAST Iranic language spoken in the Steppes by so called Scythians AND spoken by Khwarezm, Bactrians, Kambojas, Sogdians etc. around BMAC.


    EAST Iranic language evolved in BMAC. So that makes EAST Iranic language NATIVE to BMAC, like Portugues is native to Portugal.


    Brazilians = Scythians in the Steppes; 'Iranized' East Iranians.
    Portuguese = Khwarezm, Bactrians, Kambojas, Sogdians around BMAC; the REAL native East Iranians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    so as far as they knew they were just as native to Central Asia as Turks were.
    Bingo! But they spoke a language that was NOT native to Central Asia (the Steppes)! The East Iranic language they spoke was native to BMAC, Iranian Plateau.

    That's why I'm saying that they were just a bunch 'Iranized' Steppes nomads, 'Iranized' by the true East Iranic tribes from the BMAC/Iranian Plateau.


    BTW, Scythians are overrated. Compared to West Iranians/ARYANS, like the Medes & Persians who build empires, Scythians left no legacy at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14
    Someone leaked on a Russian website that David Reich has sampled DNA from a Yamnaya man who belonged to Y DNA haplogroup R1a-Z93 ("R1a1a1d2a").
    Not just "someone", but Pavel Kuznetsov - one of co-authors of Haak 2015 "Massive migration..." study:

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture14317.html

    He posted more information about this in his comments below this article, which is criticizing Haak 2015 study:

    http://translate.google.com/translat...page_id%3D7492

    Google-translated:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pavel Kuznetsov
    As for the differences in the prevalence of R1a in Corded Ware Culture and R1b have Yamnik, I want to recall - in the article is just a 5-haplogroups Yamnik definition that certainly is not enough! And after the article was published, we received a new sample has haplogroup R1adlya yamnogo burial. All the definitions that we currently operate are derived from a small and distant areas - northern steppe of the Volga region. I'm very optimistic Yamnik forward definitions of the Black Sea steppes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Semenov:
    Dear Paul
    You could not tell more in detail about Yamnik with haplogroup R1a? where it is found? What subclade? when the article?
    Thank you in advance!
    All new typing results are monitored, met only Yamnik I2a2 and hvalyntsa R1a1-M198-
    Thank you in advance!
    with respect,
    Alexander
    Quote Originally Posted by Pavel K.
    Alexander, dory day! Nadezhdinka - a burial mound 1 1. It is basic. In a deep pit lying teen - boy: Y-hapl. R1a1a1d2a. Lying on his back, legs tucked, hands are not preserved. The head was sprinkled with dark red ocher, he stood at the left plechal round bottom flask, lay shells fold. And rite and inventory - typical pit Volga culture. Barrow was standing on the bank of the river. B.Irgiz (left tributary of the Volga.) - N 52 degrees 12 minutes E 48 degrees 39 minutes.
    I must say that the East Wing Yamnik (Volga-Urals) covers the period 3400 - 2900 BC. West Wing 3100-2400 BC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elena Balanovskaya
    Dear Paul, but You, unfortunately, have not led the most important information:
    who genotyped? in a laboratory? which was published?
    The answers to these questions depend on the reliability of the result.
    And we could have typed with a lot of samples in the laboratory. Only, most likely, their haplogroup reflect the modern DNA, which is full of all of our laboratory, and is not a DNA sample from the archaeological site. Examples of this mass. And they, alas! multiply.
    Therefore, only the data can be trusted, who genotyped in a reliable laboratory and published in reputable journals - that is, have been seriously reviewed.
    The one who has established that this Yamnaya sample belongs to R1a, is David Reich, but it has not yet been published:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pavel K.
    Dear Elena, the result sent David Reich (David Reih). He heads the department at Harvard Medical School. Alas, he is not yet published.
    Your CP
    Quote Originally Posted by Elena B.
    Dear Paul, thank you! Reich - is a brand! Even if not published - complete trust :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga
    Eastern side of Volga River, near Kazakhstan.
    This sample is from Nadezhdinka - but from which one ???

    I found at least 6 sites of this name in lands formerly occupied by Yamnaya culture:

    Nadezhdinka, Saratov Oblast, Russia
    Nadezhdinka, Kurgan Oblast, Russia
    Nadezhdinka, Orenburg Oblast, Russia
    Nadezhdinka, Tambov Oblast, Russia
    Nadezhdinka, Penza Oblast, Russia
    Nadezhdinka, Kostanay Oblast, Kazakhstan

    ===================

    OK, this post explains which Nadezhdinka it is:

    ^ OK, Rozenfeld explained which Nadezhdinka it is: :)


    Quote Originally Posted by rozenfeld
    Ok, since I was the one who posted the link, let me explain my understanding of the situation:

    http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=7492 - this is the article on a Russian website, basically a translation of a Lolita Nikolova's critique of Haak 2015. In the comments people discuss paleogenetics of Yamnaya and Khvalynsk, R1a and R1b. What is important is that they talk about two different sets of samples.

    First, there are three samples representing Khvalynsk culture, belonging to R1a, R1b and Q1a. All these sample are from the west bank of Volga, next to Alekseyevka village. These results were already published, back in October, first as a preprint: http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477 , then as an article: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture16152.html.

    Another one is however from the east bank of Volga, next to Nadezhdinka village. It represents typical Yamnaya grave, it's not yet published (I checked it), and according to Kuznetsov was analyzed by Reich and was found to belong to R1a. So according to Kuznetsov there is R1a among Yamnaya.

    Here is the map: red A is a Nadezhdinka site, blue B is Alekseyevka site:


    NADEZH.png
    It's the one in Saratov Oblast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Bingo! But they spoke a language that was NOT native to Central Asia (the Steppes)! The East Iranic language they spoke was native to BMAC, Iranian Plateau.
    No, I mean genetically speaking Sycthians weren't native to Central Asia. I'm not referring to language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    That's why I'm saying that they were just a bunch 'Iranized' Steppes nomads, 'Iranized' by the true East Iranic tribes from the BMAC/Iranian Plateau.
    "true East Iranic tribes". Dude, settle down. No one remembers when Iranian languages spread, so much has happened afterwards that what defines Kurds or anyone else has little to do with who were the first Iranian speakers. And whoever they were, they're not a superior race. I'm just so tired of this. There's a good chance Iranian languages aren't native to your region, get over it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    BTW, Scythians are overrated. Compared to West Iranians/ARYANS, like the Medes & Persians who build empires, Scythians left no legacy at all.
    I don't think Scythians were a great people. They were just people. All I'm doing is talking about their ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    "true East Iranic tribes". Dude, settle down. No one remembers when Iranian languages spread, so much has happened afterwards that what defines Kurds or anyone else has little to do with who were the first Iranian speakers. And whoever they were, they're not a superior race. I'm just so tired of this. There's a good chance Iranian languages aren't native to your region, get over it.
    Don't you think I'm tired of all this too?


    You started about "the historical Scythians who the Greeks knew in the Iron age", not me.

    All what I wrote is that those 'historical Scythians who the Greeks knew in the Iron age' spoke an East Iranian language that came from BMAC and not from Sintashta or Andronovo, like you changed the region from from Sintashta into Andronovo later.

    It's not about chances, but about the facts. The fact is that the so called "historical Scythians who the Greeks knew in the Iron age" spoke a language that came from BMAC. That means that EAST Iranian language spoken by Scythians was NATIVE to BMAC, the Iranian Plateau and NOT Sintashta or Andronovo.

    People who lived in the Steppes spoke an Iranian language that was NOT native to their region, because that language came from BMAC.

    True, real EAST Iranian tribes were those who lived in the same area where their languages were came to birth and evolved. Those EAST Iranian tribes were most likely: Bactrians, Sogdians etc.

    So the so called "historical Scythians who the Greeks knew in the Iron age" from "Sintashta or Andronovo" spoke a language NOT native to their region. So, then they have to be 'Iranized' by those true 'real' East Iranians from BMAC who spoke East Iranian as their native language from BMAC.

    Portugese spoken in Brazil and Portugal. But Portugese is from Portugal. Or Spanish spoken in Mexico and Spain. Spanish is NATIVE to Spain, Portugese is NATIVE to Portugal and EAST Iranic is NATIVE to BMAC!


    Scythians = "Iranized" East Iranians
    Bactrians, Sogdians etc = "Original" East Iranians


    The Steppes = like Brazil, Mexico = colony
    BMAC = like Portugal, Spain = motherland


    Iranian languages (ancestral to West and East Iranian languages) CAN'T be from somewhere else but the Iranian Plateau. They came to birth, were established and evolved on the Iranian Plateau. Therefore they are NATIVE to the Iranian Plateau. Both Western Iranian and Eastern Iranian are native to the Iranian Plateau. You like it or not. Nowhere outside their habitat Iranian languages are spoken. Iranian languages are part of the Iranid race and not other races at all. These are facts.


    Languages do define people, their lives, their culture, their history and their future. The difference between humans and animals is that humans have languages. Without languages people are animals.


    Everyone has got his/her own talent. Live and let live...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The one who has established that this Yamnaya sample belongs to R1a, is David Reich, but it has not yet been published:
    Nice, this might be true. But I don't think that R1b or R1a were the only Y-DNA haplogroups of Yamnaya. I'm sure that if they test more than 1000 samples they would find many more different haplogroups than R1b, like hg. I, J, P, N, Q etc.

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    Goga,

    About the legacy of Scythians, I wrote already before here:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post476156

    Moreover, Scythians were the only people apart from Greeks who successfully resisted Persian invasions.

    In 530 BC the Scythians under Queen Tomyris defeated the Persians, killing Persian king Cyrus II:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post476268

    In fact that defeat against Scythians was the 1st major failure in history of the Persian Empire.

    The 2nd major failure in Persian history was their invasion of Greece in 480 - 479 BC.

    That battle between Scythians and Persians in 530 BC, is the oldest recorded use of cataphracts in battle:

    The Romans did not invent cataphracts, though - they copied this formation from their eastern neighbours.

    Ultimately, cataphracts - heavily-armoured horsemen with long lances and / or bows - originated in the Steppe.

    The first recorded use of cataphracts was in year 530 BC by Queen Tomyris in her battle against Cyrus II:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomyris

    Scythian & Massagetae horsemen under Tomyris utterly defeated the Persians, Cyrus II was killed in battle:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great#Death

    The Persians adopted cataphracts from their Steppe enemies - Cyrus the Younger started using them on a large scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Scythians as people were very MIXED. They had Europoid, Caucasoid, Central Asian and even EAST Asiatic (Turkic/Mongoloid) DNA. Scythians were very diverse people, but the LANGUAGE they spoke came from BMAC. FACT!
    Scythians were like Brazilians, a mixture of many races.

    But the LANGUAGE the Scythians (Saka) Spoke was EAST Iranic. East Iranic language evolved around and is from BMAC. Has nothing to do with Sintashta. That's a FACT.

    BMAC is on the Iranian Plateau.

    Can you prove me wrong that EAST Iranic language is from BMAC?


    Languages do define people. The language Kurds speak define them, because it's an UNIQUE language spoken by NOBODY else but the Kurds. No other race on this planet speaks Kurdish, than Kurds themselves. Kurdish language (WEST Iranic) is part of Kurdish history and Kurdish race.
    No Goga. No. Those are not facts. None of them.

    BMAC was not IE. This is a fact.

    Buy that's why I love you

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    No Goga. No. Those are not facts. None of them.

    BMAC was not IE. This is a fact.

    Buy that's why I love you
    What are you talking about? Yaz culture was East Iranian. And Yaz culture was Iron Age BMAC:

    " The Yaz culture was an early Iron Age culture of Bactria and Margiana (ca. 1500-1100 BC).[1] It has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta. So far, no burials related to the culture have been found, and this was taken as evidence of the Zoroastrian practice of exposure or so-called sky burial. "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz_culture


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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Think of Brazil and Portugal. In both countries Portuguese is spoken. But Portugues is from Portugal.

    And now EAST Iranic language spoken in the Steppes by so called Scythians AND spoken by Khwarezm, Bactrians, Kambojas, Sogdians etc. around BMAC.


    EAST Iranic language evolved in BMAC. So that makes EAST Iranic language NATIVE to BMAC, like Portugues is native to Portugal.


    Brazilians = Scythians in the Steppes; 'Iranized' East Iranians.
    Portuguese = Khwarezm, Bactrians, Kambojas, Sogdians around BMAC; the REAL native East Iranians.
    Dude.

    One time you said that PIE was proto-Euphratic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    No Goga. No. Those are not facts. None of them.

    BMAC was not IE. This is a fact.

    Buy that's why I love you
    What are you talking about? East Iranian languages are associated with the YAZ culture and Yaz Culture was just an Iron Age culture of BMAC


    " The Yaz culture was an early Iron Age culture of Bactria and Margiana (ca. 1500-1100 BC).[1] It has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta. So far, no burials related to the culture have been found, and this was taken as evidence of the Zoroastrian practice of exposure or so-called sky burial. "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz_culture


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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    No Goga. No. Those are not facts. None of them.

    BMAC was not IE. This is a fact.

    Buy that's why I love you
    What are you talking about? East Iranian languages are associated with the YAZ culture and Yaz Culture was just an Iron Age culture of BMAC


    " The Yaz culture was an early Iron Age culture of Bactria and Margiana (ca. 1500-1100 BC).[1] It has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta. So far, no burials related to the culture have been found, and this was taken as evidence of the Zoroastrian practice of exposure or so-called sky burial. "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Iranian_languages



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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Dude.

    One time you said that PIE was proto-Euphratic.
    Never said that. Has to be someone else.

    According to me the very early PIE that migrated into Yamnaya where it became late PIE, came from Maykop/Leyla Tepe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Never said that. Has to be someone else.

    According to me the very early PIE that migrated into Yamnaya where it became late PIE, came from Maykop/Leyla Tepe
    You suggested it

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    You suggested it
    No, maybe in your dreams.

    What I said that it was possible that some PIE folks from Leyla Tepe (located south of the Caspian Sea, Iranian Plateau) came down from the mountains and went to Mesopotamia and found the Mesopotamian Civilization. And I believe it was pretty much the case. Leyla-Tepe folks migrated into Mesopotamia and found the Uruk civilization by replacing the Ubaid Culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Goga,

    About the legacy of Scythians, I wrote already before here:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post476156

    Moreover, Scythians were the only people apart from Greeks who successfully resisted Persian invasions.

    In 530 BC the Scythians under Queen Tomyris defeated the Persians, killing Persian king Cyrus II:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post476268

    In fact that defeat against Scythians was the 1st major failure in history of the Persian Empire.

    The 2nd major failure in Persian history was their invasion of Greece in 480 - 479 BC.

    That battle between Scythians and Persians in 530 BC, is the oldest recorded use of cataphracts in battle:
    Great, I like those Scythians much more now. Because those Persians killed the Median King and took over the Empire from the Medes.

    If Cyaxares knew that, what would happen after his death, maybe he would not kill those Scythian leaders.


    " According to Herodotus he repelled the Scythians from Media.

    After Phraortes' demise, the Scythians overran Media. Cyaxares, seeking revenge, killed the Scythian leaders[7] and proclaimed himself King of Medes. After throwing off the Scythians, he prepared for war against Assyria"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyaxares

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    What are you talking about? East Iranian languages are associated with the YAZ culture and Yaz Culture was just an Iron Age culture of BMAC


    " The Yaz culture was an early Iron Age culture of Bactria and Margiana (ca. 1500-1100 BC).[1] It has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta. So far, no burials related to the culture have been found, and this was taken as evidence of the Zoroastrian practice of exposure or so-called sky burial. "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Iranian_languages



    I love you too. Not as (hu)man, but as Reptoid.
    Yes, the Yaz culture. An Andronovized remnant of BMAC, quite literally. Steppe overtook BMAC as BMAC declined, or BMAC fell and steppe moved in, or Steppe, Andronovo to be clear, conquered BMAC.

    Those are the only explanations for the archaeology. And the genetics are supporting it.

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    If you guys are going to withhold my posts for review, maybe have someone awake to actually do it so I don't wonder what's happening and post the same thing 3x times, thank you.
    Last edited by holderlin; 22-03-16 at 17:38. Reason: Eupedia isn't moderating well

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    David Reich has sampled DNA from a Yamnaya man who belonged to Y DNA haplogroup R1a-Z93("R1a1a1d2a"). We already have a R1a-Z94 sample from Poltvaka, a successor culture of Yamnaya. This R1a-Z94 man had about 30% Middle Neolithic European(Neolithic Turkey, with minor WHG) ancestry unlike Yamnaya, and clearly represents a migration from west of the Volga.
    The original paper does not deny the existence of R1a in Yamnaya samples and it only says that all 7 Yamnaya males belonged to Haplogroup R1b. According to the Anatolian hypothesis, the R1b people originated in eastern Anatolia as nomadic cattle herders and some migrated northwards to the Pontic Steppe, where they interbred with R1a women. Since the region where the Yamnaya culture flourished is the R1a heartland today, R1a people and R1b people could have coexisted and interacted with each other in the Pontic Steppe. I assume that most Yamnaya female samples belonged to R1a based on this scenario even though it's not explicitly stated in the paper.
    We determined that 34 of the 69 newly analyzed individuals were male and used 2,258 Y chromosome SNPs targets included in the capture to obtain high resolution Y chromosome haplogroup calls (SI4). Outside Russia, and before the Late Neolithic period, only a single R1b individual was found (early Neolithic Spain) in the combined literature (n=70). By contrast, haplogroups R1a and R1b were found in 60% of Late Neolithic/Bronze Age Europeans outside Russia (n=10), and in 100% of the samples from European Russia from all periods (7,500-2,700 BCE; n=9). R1a and R1b are the most common haplogroups in many European populations today18,19, and our results suggest that they spread into Europe from the East after 3,000 BCE. Two hunter-gatherers from Russia included in our study belonged to R1a (Karelia) and R1b (Samara), the earliest documented ancient samples of either haplogroup discovered to date. These two hunter-gatherers did not belong to the derived lineages M417 within R1a and M269 within R1b that are predominant in Europeans today18,19, but all 7 Yamnaya males did belong to the M269 subclade18 of haplogroup R1b.
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 23-03-16 at 00:00. Reason: bad formatting

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    And the third attempt
    Last edited by holderlin; 22-03-16 at 17:41. Reason: Mod fail

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post
    The original paper does not deny the existence of R1a in Yamnaya samples and it only says that all 7 Yamnaya males belonged to Haplogroup R1b.


    According to the Anatolian hypothesis, the R1b people originated in eastern Anatolia as nomadic cattle herders and some migrated northwards to the Pontic Steppe, where they interbred with R1a women.
    Since the region where the Yamnaya culture flourished is the R1a heartland today, R1a people and R1b people could have coexisted and interacted with each other in


    the Pontic Steppe. I assume that most Yamnaya female samples belonged to R1a based on this scenario even though it's not explicitly stated in the paper.
    Okay yes.

    And ahahahahahahahahahahaha please tell me who posted about the relative likelyhood of R1a females.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Yaz= Andronovized remnants of BMAC.

    This is archaeological consensus. Explain it however you like. The genetics are now supporting this.
    LMAO, this is great fun!

    Yaz is located on the Iranian Plateau between Iran and Turkmenstan. How is it possible that the most southern corner of BMAC was '
    Andronovized' (this is the first I hear this word), while the northern part of BMAC which actually borders Andronovo was not. This is not logical at all.

    Also, Yaz Culture, was actually Zoroastrian in nature, with
    early Zoroastrian practices. If Yaz Culture was 'Andronovized' then Andronovo would be Zoroastrian or proto-Zoroastrian itself. LMAO, Andronovo Zoroastrian, Prophet Zoroaster from Andronovo! This is crazy and weird at the same time.


    It seems that you're trying to drive me crazy. But the more you try, the more I like you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post
    Since the region where the Yamnaya culture flourished is the R1a heartland today, R1a people and R1b people could have coexisted and interacted with each other in
    It wasn't an R1a heartland. It was R1b. R1a arrived in Yamnaya with Western newcomers. Originally 1,000 years before Yamnaya, there's a good chance that's where the R1a came from. But, it migrated west then came back east.

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