R1a-Z93 in Yamnaya

You suggested it
No, maybe in your dreams.

What I said that it was possible that some PIE folks from Leyla Tepe (located south of the Caspian Sea, Iranian Plateau) came down from the mountains and went to Mesopotamia and found the Mesopotamian Civilization. And I believe it was pretty much the case. Leyla-Tepe folks migrated into Mesopotamia and found the Uruk civilization by replacing the Ubaid Culture.
 
Goga,

About the legacy of Scythians, I wrote already before here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...one-Age-battle?p=476156&viewfull=1#post476156

Moreover, Scythians were the only people apart from Greeks who successfully resisted Persian invasions.

In 530 BC the Scythians under Queen Tomyris defeated the Persians, killing Persian king Cyrus II:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...one-Age-battle?p=476268&viewfull=1#post476268

In fact that defeat against Scythians was the 1st major failure in history of the Persian Empire.

The 2nd major failure in Persian history was their invasion of Greece in 480 - 479 BC.

That battle between Scythians and Persians in 530 BC, is the oldest recorded use of cataphracts in battle:
Great, I like those Scythians much more now. Because those Persians killed the Median King and took over the Empire from the Medes.

If Cyaxares knew that, what would happen after his death, maybe he would not kill those Scythian leaders.


" According to Herodotus he repelled the Scythians from Media.

After Phraortes' demise, the Scythians overran Media. Cyaxares, seeking revenge, killed the Scythian leaders[7] and proclaimed himself King of Medes. After throwing off the Scythians, he prepared for war against Assyria"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyaxares
 
What are you talking about? East Iranian languages are associated with the YAZ culture and Yaz Culture was just an Iron Age culture of BMAC


" The Yaz culture was an early Iron Age culture of Bactria and Margiana (ca. 1500-1100 BC).[1] It has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta. So far, no burials related to the culture have been found, and this was taken as evidence of the Zoroastrian practice of exposure or so-called sky burial. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Iranian_languages



I love you too. Not as (hu)man, but as Reptoid.

Yes, the Yaz culture. An Andronovized remnant of BMAC, quite literally. Steppe overtook BMAC as BMAC declined, or BMAC fell and steppe moved in, or Steppe, Andronovo to be clear, conquered BMAC.

Those are the only explanations for the archaeology. And the genetics are supporting it.
 
If you guys are going to withhold my posts for review, maybe have someone awake to actually do it so I don't wonder what's happening and post the same thing 3x times, thank you.
 
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David Reich has sampled DNA from a Yamnaya man who belonged to Y DNA haplogroup R1a-Z93("R1a1a1d2a"). We already have a R1a-Z94 sample from Poltvaka, a successor culture of Yamnaya. This R1a-Z94 man had about 30% Middle Neolithic European(Neolithic Turkey, with minor WHG) ancestry unlike Yamnaya, and clearly represents a migration from west of the Volga.

The original paper does not deny the existence of R1a in Yamnaya samples and it only says that all 7 Yamnaya males belonged to Haplogroup R1b. According to the Anatolian hypothesis, the R1b people originated in eastern Anatolia as nomadic cattle herders and some migrated northwards to the Pontic Steppe, where they interbred with R1a women. Since the region where the Yamnaya culture flourished is the R1a heartland today, R1a people and R1b people could have coexisted and interacted with each other in the Pontic Steppe. I assume that most Yamnaya female samples belonged to R1a based on this scenario even though it's not explicitly stated in the paper.
We determined that 34 of the 69 newly analyzed individuals were male and used 2,258 Y chromosome SNPs targets included in the capture to obtain high resolution Y chromosome haplogroup calls (SI4). Outside Russia, and before the Late Neolithic period, only a single R1b individual was found (early Neolithic Spain) in the combined literature (n=70). By contrast, haplogroups R1a and R1b were found in 60% of Late Neolithic/Bronze Age Europeans outside Russia (n=10), and in 100% of the samples from European Russia from all periods (7,500-2,700 BCE; n=9). R1a and R1b are the most common haplogroups in many European populations today18,19, and our results suggest that they spread into Europe from the East after 3,000 BCE. Two hunter-gatherers from Russia included in our study belonged to R1a (Karelia) and R1b (Samara), the earliest documented ancient samples of either haplogroup discovered to date. These two hunter-gatherers did not belong to the derived lineages M417 within R1a and M269 within R1b that are predominant in Europeans today18,19, but all 7 Yamnaya males did belong to the M269 subclade18 of haplogroup R1b.
 
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The original paper does not deny the existence of R1a in Yamnaya samples and it only says that all 7 Yamnaya males belonged to Haplogroup R1b.
According to the Anatolian hypothesis, the R1b people originated in eastern Anatolia as nomadic cattle herders and some migrated northwards to the Pontic Steppe, where they interbred with R1a women.
Since the region where the Yamnaya culture flourished is the R1a heartland today, R1a people and R1b people could have coexisted and interacted with each other in
the Pontic Steppe. I assume that most Yamnaya female samples belonged to R1a based on this scenario even though it's not explicitly stated in the paper.

Okay yes.

And ahahahahahahahahahahaha please tell me who posted about the relative likelyhood of R1a females.
 
Yaz= Andronovized remnants of BMAC.

This is archaeological consensus. Explain it however you like. The genetics are now supporting this.
LMAO, this is great fun!

Yaz is located on the Iranian Plateau between Iran and Turkmenstan. How is it possible that the most southern corner of BMAC was '
Andronovized' (this is the first I hear this word), while the northern part of BMAC which actually borders Andronovo was not. This is not logical at all.

Also, Yaz Culture, was actually Zoroastrian in nature, with
early Zoroastrian practices. If Yaz Culture was 'Andronovized' then Andronovo would be Zoroastrian or proto-Zoroastrian itself. LMAO, Andronovo Zoroastrian, Prophet Zoroaster from Andronovo! This is crazy and weird at the same time.


It seems that you're trying to drive me crazy. But the more you try, the more I like you.
 
Since the region where the Yamnaya culture flourished is the R1a heartland today, R1a people and R1b people could have coexisted and interacted with each other in

It wasn't an R1a heartland. It was R1b. R1a arrived in Yamnaya with Western newcomers. Originally 1,000 years before Yamnaya, there's a good chance that's where the R1a came from. But, it migrated west then came back east.
 
Scythians as people were very MIXED. They had Europoid, Caucasoid, Central Asian and even EAST Asiatic (Turkic/Mongoloid) DNA. Scythians were very diverse people, but the LANGUAGE they spoke came from BMAC. FACT!
Scythians were like Brazilians, a mixture of many races.

But the LANGUAGE the Scythians (Saka) Spoke was EAST Iranic. East Iranic language evolved around and is from BMAC. Has nothing to do with Sintashta. That's a FACT.

BMAC is on the Iranian Plateau.

Can you prove me wrong that EAST Iranic language is from BMAC?


Languages do define people. The language Kurds speak define them, because it's an UNIQUE language spoken by NOBODY else but the Kurds. No other race on this planet speaks Kurdish, than Kurds themselves. Kurdish language (WEST Iranic) is part of Kurdish history and Kurdish race.

BMAC was 4.1 ka
Scythians are not older than 2.9 ka
A 1200 year gap
 
What are you talking about? East Iranian languages are associated with the YAZ culture and Yaz Culture was just an Iron Age culture of BMAC


" The Yaz culture was an early Iron Age culture of Bactria and Margiana (ca. 1500-1100 BC).[1] It has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta. So far, no burials related to the culture have been found, and this was taken as evidence of the Zoroastrian practice of exposure or so-called sky burial. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz_culture


I love you too. Not as (hu)man, but as Reptoid.

nothing is known about Yaz culture, only this tiny article in wikipedia
 
BMAC was 4.1 ka
Scythians are not older than 2.9 ka
A 1200 year gap
Yaz Culture was BMAC too. It was almost identical to the older BMAC generations.

The point is that East Iranian language was born/evolved in that area, around (ancient) BMAC.

East Iranian evolved from Avestan, right? Proto-East Iranian is also not that old, about the same age as Yaz Culture. Maybe even younger...

The thing is that the Avestan language and Sascrit were ergative construction languages. Ergativity in a language is something West Asian. The Steppe languages have no ergativity.


This tree is a little bit wrong because Avestic should be close to proto-Iranian and not under the Eastern Iranic languages. And Saka / Scythians are actually the same. But you see the point.



Same only more languages.



800px-Iranian_Family_Tree_v2.0.png




nothing is known about Yaz culture, only this tiny article in wikipedia
Everything useful about Yaz Culture was written in Avestan language (proto-Iranic) in Zoroastrian Gathas.

It has been said that Zoroaster was actually an outcast from the Magi (tribe) of the Medes. My people are saying that Zoroaster was Ezdi Kurd who went a different way and opposed the religion of his people. That why he was an outcast and that's why he migrated to Bactria, native home of the East Iranic language people. He brought his ideas from West Asia to people in Bactria.

There was a relation between the Zoroastrianism and the "original" East Iranians.
 
what about the dating, from which period was this man ?

He lived before year 3000 BC. Which means that YFull age estimate for Z94 is probably too young.
 
He lived before year 3000 BC. Which means that YFull age estimate for Z94 is probably too young.
Interesting. So this guy is from pre Yamnaya, Khalynsk Culture? Or is it Early Yamnaya already?

I think we are going to see a picture like this for early IE family:
North East Yamnaya - R1a Z93
South East - R1b Z2103
North West - R1a 283
South West - R1b L51
 
Interesting. So this guy is from pre Yamnaya, Khalynsk Culture? Or is it Early Yamnaya already?

I think we are going to see a picture like this for early IE family:
North East Yamnaya - R1a Z93
South East - R1b Z2103
North West - R1a 283
South West - R1b L51

He is Yamnaya not pre-Yamnaya. All of the Samara Yamnaya guys had R1b-Z2103, and they're NorthEast. We already have a R1a-Z93 from Poltvaka culture, which decended from Yamnaya. The individual who had R1a-Z93 was differnt from other Poltvaka guys who had R1b-Z2103. He was about 30% Middle Neolithic European(Neolithic Turkey, with minor WHG). My guess is the same will be true for this R1a-Z93 Yamnaya guy. He probably isn't actually a Yamnaya person, but instead from close relatives who lived much further west and admixed with EEFs.

That's the origin story of Andronovo. Ultimately they came from somewhere between Germany and Russia, then they migrated east into Russia around 3000 BC or earlier, and made it to Siberia by 2000 BC. Corded Ware was basically their brother who stayed in Europe. At least, they shared R1a, besides they might not have many connections.
 
He is Yamnaya not pre-Yamnaya. All of the Samara Yamnaya guys had R1b-Z2103
I have a feeling they came from farther south.
The individual who had R1a-Z93 was differnt from other Poltvaka guys who had R1b-Z2103. He was about 30% Middle Neolithic European(Neolithic Turkey, with minor WHG).
Possibly, or by Poltavka times EEF farmers reached already far North and East mixing with locals.



My guess is the same will be true for this R1a-Z93 Yamnaya guy. He probably isn't actually a Yamnaya person, but instead from close relatives who lived much further west and admixed with EEFs.

That's the origin story of Andronovo. Ultimately they came from somewhere between Germany and Russia, then they migrated east into Russia around 3000 BC or earlier, and made it to Siberia by 2000 BC. Corded Ware was basically their brother who stayed in Europe. At least, they shared R1a, besides they might not have many connections.
It is a hard sell. By early Yamnaya times Z283 and Z93 needed to be separated already. Why do you think Z93 was so far West in Central Europe? It could have been all the time in the area or farther north or east, in smaller hunter gatherer groups, it just started expansion by Yamnaya together with getting some farmer EEF, domestication of horses, and expanded to the east.
 
@Lebrok,

The statistically chances that 7/7 NorthEast Yamnaya come out R1b-Z2013, despite lets say 30% of them in reality having R1a-Z93, is 8%. There's no doubt the Poltvaka R1a-Z93 guy came from a differnt population, a population who had ~100% R1a-Z93 instead of ~100% R1b-Z2103. Either that population lived side by side Samara Yamnaya, or they came from a differnt location. Considering they had ~30% Neolithic European admixture, they certainly came very far to the West in Central/East Europe.

It's very likely that around modern Ukraine and Romania, there had been hybrid EEF/Steppe populations since 3000-3500 BC. So, German Corded Ware, who could be modeled as 70-80% Yamnaya, was probably in reality 100% from Eastern migrants who already had EEF admixture. The same is true for the Poltvaka outlier, except he arrived west of Samara. You had people of mixed EEF/Steppe heritage and with Y DNA R1a-M417, migrating west into Germany and east into Russia at the same time.
 
Omg, some people trully live in a dream world. There have been many studies done and all those academic studie concluded the same thing that R1a can be from Europe.

If R1a came from the west, than in the Eastern Steppes and Central Asia would be also haplogroups like I1, I2 etc. But that's not the case.


The thing is that R1a migrated into the Western Steppes and Europe from the Middle East. Like it's brother, R1a is also from the Middle East. Why? Because R1* evolved in the Middle East.


That's why Middle Eastern auDNA in R1a samples are not from Germany or something lol, but actually native directly from the Middle East.


Original R1a was actually Middle Eastern.

I believe that R1a entered the Steppes from the east, while R1b migrated into Yamnaya via Caucasus.
 

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