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Thread: R1a-Z93 in Yamnaya

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    @Goga,

    Karelia_HG had Y DNA R1a. As far as we know he had no Basal Eurasian ancestry, which is how we identify West Asian admixture. Our tree currently isn't perfect, however it is still very unlikely Karelia_HG had any recent or significant West Asian ancestry. However, genome-wide data doesn't tell everything about distant Y DNA origins. For example there are people in Africa with R1b-V88 and no obvious signs of West Eurasian admixture. That doesn't mean R1b originated in Africa.

    The best evidence I can see that Z93 is from Asia, is that all of the Bronze age European guys who had Z93 belonged to a specfic subclade which is rare in SouthCentral Asia today. That supports the idea that Z93 began in West Asia, with one branch going north to Europe and another east to India.

    Also, the lines separates modern European and West Asian are blurred when you go back 8,000 years. Most of all European's ancestors were living in West Asia and in people similar to most of the ancestors of West Asian's 8,000 years ago. Yamnaya wasn't a very West Asian people, because they were roughly 50%. Swedes are more than 50%. Yamnaya reduced Basal Eurasian/West Asian levels significantly in Europe. When you look at it from a God-like view, European isn't very exotic to West Asian. There's enough difference for phenotype to be noticeable differnt, but there's lots of sharing. You shouldn't be so scared of R1a-Z93 being European, because it's less exotic than you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @Goga,

    Karelia_HG had Y DNA R1a. As far as we know he had no Basal Eurasian ancestry, which is how we identify West Asian admixture. Our tree currently isn't perfect, however it is still very unlikely Karelia_HG had any recent or significant West Asian ancestry. However, genome-wide data doesn't tell everything about distant Y DNA origins. For example there are people in Africa with R1b-V88 and no obvious signs of West Eurasian admixture. That doesn't mean R1b originated in Africa.
    Karelia_HG R1a was different to Z93 and not ancestral haplogroup to Z93 at all. It was a very different lineage, and I'm not sure but that Karelia_HG R1a lineage is extinct today

    They found also hg. J2 in far NorthEast Europe (in Finland?). Also that NorthEast European H&G almost lacked West Asian auDNA. Doesn't mean that J2 is not native West Asia.


    There was also a very ancient migration from South to North, and hg. J2 is the best evidence for that.


    Modern R1a-Z93 is VERY different to Karelia_HG with absolutely no relation to it. Like modern J2a is very different to NorthEast European HG with absolutely no relation to it either. Ancient North European R1a* or J2 haplogroups have nothing to do with modern R1a-Z93 or J2a. There're no direct links at all.



    And of course there is not only Z93 from Iran in the Steppes, if they look further there would be much more other haplogroups from West Asia in the Steppes. Nothing special.

    There is also a lot modern Z93 in the Steppes from the 'modern' Iranian speakers..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    R1a-Z93 guys have lots of EEF admixture. EEF lived in Europe and Turkey. So, it is unlikely Z93 came from Central Asia.
    Not necessarily, in EN we can find I2 hunter gatherers and I2 farmers. Depending where they live and if they mixed with farmers. The same might be with Z93 of early Yamnaya.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Botai people were supposedly hunter-gatherers who domesticated horses in order to hunt from horseback.

    So pretty much like 18th century Amerindians from the Great Plains who hunted buffaloes from horseback.

    This is what Dieneks claimed (see the link above). If they were EHG, then they could have some sort of R1.
    It might be, however milk and some sort of cheese was found in Botai ceramics and they have kept horses in enclosures. Once they have domesticated horses they lived more like herders than hunters. They as well learned to ride horses when tending and moving the herd to new pastures. Who knows?
    Equivalent for Amerindians is, had they domesticated buffaloes, milk them and rode them. :)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I'm stating the fact Sycthians were descendants of Sintashta. We know this because we have Sycthian and Sintashta DNA. I never stated Sintashta were proto-Indo Iranians. I don't know whether they were. Since they belonged to a downstream clade of Z93, not found in South Asia, that suggests they weren't. It's possible proto-Indo Iranian lived west of Sintashta in Russia or West Asia.

    You got to understand many people speak languages that most of their ancestors didn't. For example, Austrians speak a German language, but are mostly Polish and Balkan-like, not German-like. West Germans, South Dutch, and Swiss speak a German language, but are far more similar to French than to other Germans. English speak a German language, but are mostly of British Celtic-decent. All the major language families of Europe probably spread in the Bronze age or later, with maybe not much gene flow. There's endless examples of people who speak a differnt language than their ancestors did.

    How much I usually disagree with Goga in this case he is quite right and you are not stating the "fact" but merely put up your hypothesis and conclusions based on a rumor.

    It is no fact that R1a was found in Yamna, even if it was, it is no fact that this Yamna R1a z93 was autosomally similar to that Poltavka sample. How do you know he was 30% EEF? Have you seen official or even unoffical aDNA tests on this mystery Yamna R1a? Irony is Sintashta has 40% EEF. So if Sintashta descend of Poltavka how logical does it seem that Sintashta has more EEF than Poltavka? Did they pick up EEF from West or did it increase the further East they went?

    Also he is right that their is no evidence that Sintashta is linguistic forefathers of Iranic tribes. Sintashta looks like an ancient Indo_Iranic culture but not ancestral to Iranic groups.

    In fact it is true that East iranic tongues are connected the Srubnaya-Yaz connection. Look at page 7
    http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~w...doIranArch.pdf

    Look at the origin point in Northeast Iran. This is Yaz culture

    e Yaz culture was an early Iron Age culture of Bactria and Margiana (ca. 1500-1100 BC).[1] It has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta.
    Do you see any linguistic connection between this early east Iranic Yaz culture and Sintashta? I only see connection to the Srubnaya (Cimmerian) culture.


    Indo Iranian languages are no exception. Sycthians and Persians are as differnt as two West Eurasian populations can be, but they spoke closely related languages. At somepoint Indo Iranian languages expanded with little gene flow. As much as you say you're not, it's pretty obvious you don't want the language to have expanded in your region with little gene flow. The langage Kurds speak doesn't define them.
    So let me get that straight, you have done aDNA tests on Medes-Parthians and Persians to tell us how much the language the Kurds or Persians speak define them. You can tell with 100% certinity that these two ancient groups came from Sintashta while there is not even very close linguistic relationship between it and the early East Iranic Yaz culture?

    How do you know that the Medes-Parthians and Persians didn't start off in the Yaz or Kura Araxes culture but can say in such a convinced way that they came directly from Sintashta?

    Also did you know that in oracle tests the Scythians can be modeled as ~58% Tajik/Pashtun and 42% Russian or in general 50% East European and 50% something West_South_Central Asian. So think about that comment of language not defining them again and let not all your knowledge be based on the blog of one single individual who has a stake on all of that. Instead ask around by many knowledgeable individuals and scientists and make your mind up than.

    Sorry for the neg rep, wasn't meant that way.
    Last edited by Alan; 26-03-16 at 23:54.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Mother of god I had a huge long replay and all it tells me is it will be published after a mod has taken a look at it. For what? I hope it didn't disappear. That often happens to me. It is so frustrating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    LMAO, this is great fun!

    Yaz is located on the Iranian Plateau between Iran and Turkmenstan. How is it possible that the most southern corner of BMAC was '
    Andronovized' (this is the first I hear this word), while the northern part of BMAC which actually borders Andronovo was not. This is not logical at all.

    Also, Yaz Culture, was actually Zoroastrian in nature, with
    early Zoroastrian practices. If Yaz Culture was 'Andronovized' then Andronovo would be Zoroastrian or proto-Zoroastrian itself. LMAO, Andronovo Zoroastrian, Prophet Zoroaster from Andronovo! This is crazy and weird at the same time.


    It seems that you're trying to drive me crazy. But the more you try, the more I like you.
    Dude

    And you aren't driving anyone crazy

    The Avesta was written in IE

    BMAC was not IE

    Whatever, it's like arguing with someone who believes in a conspiracy theory, or something like that

    It can also be traced back to PIE religion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No, maybe in your dreams.

    What I said that it was possible that some PIE folks from Leyla Tepe (located south of the Caspian Sea, Iranian Plateau) came down from the mountains and went to Mesopotamia and found the Mesopotamian Civilization. And I believe it was pretty much the case. Leyla-Tepe folks migrated into Mesopotamia and found the Uruk civilization by replacing the Ubaid Culture.
    This was OK dream. I made the posts people needed to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    " Indo-European before the Indo-Europeans? - new evidence from Mesopotamia


    Fresh evidence from the Land of the Two Rivers suggests otherwise. For many decades now, leading Assyriologists have speculated on the existence of an early population in the 4th millennium B.C. that preceded the Sumerians, hitherto generally regarded as the first settlers of the region. Evidence for such a population comes from place names, the names of deities, technical vocabulary and even from environmental terms. Such speculation has proven fruitless, since no linguistic group or archaeologically attested society could be shown to be related. However, in a number of recent publications data have been presented that suggest that one such linguistic group is indeed comparable -- the Indo-European family of languages. Polysyllabic terms lacking a Sumerian etymology can be demonstrated to resemble segmentable Indo-European words with comparable meanings. Furthermore, the cuneiform writing system can be shown to preserve traces of Indo-European influence in its sign values and in its sign composition. "

    http://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/english/calendar/archive_2009/euphratic/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Nope. But I found some descriptions of Botai people:

    https://books.google.pl/books?id=7NG...page&q&f=false

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/09...stication.html

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/...n_tab_contents

    And also such an image showing a Botai man's skull:

    There is a reconstruction of his face done by Kazakh researchers, and it looks sort of like a modern Kazakh. ;) I'm not sure if this could be trusted.




    Surprisingly for such remote place in Asia, they got pottery by 5th millennium and had Copper Age in 4th. It seems that their was rather good connection and communication between farmers and the people of the steppe, even far away steppe.
    Beginning sometime between 3700–3100 BCE, the Copper Age Botai Culture radically changed their lifestyle and settled in large, permanent villages. They also focused most of their economy on the horse, with more than 90% of the animal bones at their sites attributed to this species. Botai stone tools also changed dramatically, although the pottery was very similar to that of their ancestors.
    http://www.carnegiemnh.org/science/d...spx?id=16610#2

    It could be a shocker if Copper Age Botai herders had some EEF.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Mother of god I had a huge long replay and all it tells me is it will be published after a mod has taken a look at it. For what? I hope it didn't disappear. That often happens to me. It is so frustrating.
    Found it. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Botai people were supposedly hunter-gatherers who domesticated horses in order to hunt from horseback.

    So pretty much like 18th century Amerindians from the Great Plains who hunted buffaloes from horseback.

    This is what Dieneks claimed (see the link above). If they were EHG, then they could have some sort of R1.
    The only evidence of horse domestication from Botai is mares milk I believe. Nothing related to transport. That is IE unique.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghnobi_people

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...obi_people.jpg

    The Yaghnobi kid in this photo looks a bit like the Botai image

    #

    edit

    Lebrok
    Surprisingly for such remote place in Asia, they got pottery by 5th millennium and had Copper Age in 4th. It seems that their was rather good connection and communication between farmers and the people of the steppe, even far away steppe.
    Yes, makes me think the edge of the steppe was maybe the fastest route between NE and NW Eurasia until ships got better - so pottery maybe going east->west and copper going west->east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It might be, however milk and some sort of cheese was found in Botai ceramics and they have kept horses in enclosures. Once they have domesticated horses they lived more like herders than hunters. They as well learned to ride horses when tending and moving the herd to new pastures. Who knows?
    Equivalent for Amerindians is, had they domesticated buffaloes, milk them and rode them. :)
    acording to David Anthony, some of the descendents of Botaï were the Kelteminar
    if they had learned full riding skills they would have stayed on the steppe and would have been more succesfull
    instead they were ousted by folks with wagons and oxens and cattle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Also did you know that in oracle tests the Scythians can be modeled as ~58% Tajik/Pashtun and 42% Russian or in general 50% Russian and 50% something West_South_Central Asian. So think about that comment of language not defining them again and let not all your knowledge be based on the blog of one single individual who has a stake on all of that. Instead ask around by many knowledgeable individuals and scientists and make your mind up than.
    That 50/50 Tajik/Russian thing is probably from an unreliable ADMIXTURE test based on modern populations. I don't buy it at all. Unlike anyone, I do David Wesoliski has done tests on the Sycthian, and I do trust him the Sycthian has no signs of SC Asian ancestry. You got to remember shared CHG, causes Steppe to score a lot in Caucasus/Gedoris components. Yamnaya fits as a Caucasus and Volga-Ural mixture, even though that's not what Yamnaya was.

    If it were true we would know. Allentoft would not have ignored that. As much as David Wesolski gloats about Steppe warriors and what not, he's not very biased at all. I understand the work he does, and trust me it isn't biased. He does more tests than anyone, which is why I follow his blog. If you want the most recent and best info, you got to read his blog.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    That 50/50 Tajik/Russian thing is probably from an unreliable ADMIXTURE test based on modern populations.
    Of course it is based on modern populations aren't we talking about modern population anyways. Your statement was that Scythians are so "European Steppe" therefore what Kurds (and Iranic tribes in general ) speak doesn't define them. So of course to prove you wrong I am going to present oracle results so whats your point? And how do you know how the old Persians and Medes were genetically anyways? So anything that doesn't suit your agenda is unreliable? What makes Davids test more reliable than the runs of other amateur bloggers especially if you know 1/3 of all Davids threads are about Indo_Iranic tribes anyways and he has no agenda on it? All bloggers have an agenda. I have yet to see one without.

    Also the main problem with you is that you threw things into the room which are either incorrect or you couldn't know anything about yet.


    I don't buy it at all. Unlike anyone, I do David Wesoliski has done tests on the Sycthian, and I do trust him the Sycthian has no signs of SC Asian ancestry. You got to remember shared CHG, causes Steppe to score a lot in Caucasus/Gedoris components. Yamnaya fits as a Caucasus and Volga-Ural mixture, even though that's not what Yamnaya was.
    You don't buy it cause you don't like the results. I always knew the reason why you trust David so much isn't because you are so naive but because you want to trust him. The Scythian samples have 35% of South_Central Asian(most likely Gedrosia showing up) like admixture in older runs and some Caucasus (20%) too, but as I said Oracle runs show these Scythians as ~50-58% modern Tajik/Pashtun and 42-50% East European.
    If it were true we would know. Allentoft would not have ignored that. As much as David Wesolski gloats about Steppe warriors and what not, he's not very biased at all.
    You know him only for 3 years now, don't tell me if he is not biased or not. I know him far longer.
    Forget Allentoft, all per reviewed papers presented slightly different results than Davids. Sintashta has been modeled in the scientific papers as 40% EEF.
    I understand the work he does, and trust me it isn't biased. He does more tests than anyone, which is why I follow his blog. If you want the most recent and best info, you got to read his blog.
    You follow only his blog because what he presents you is what you want to see.

    I follow his blog too, but not only his opinion. I take his opinion into account and compare it to my and other bloggers andpeoples opinions than I make up my mind.

    I will give you just one example. David insists that the 35% ANE like ancestry in CHG is not only shared ancestry but real admixture. YET claims CHG is all J and did not paternally contribute to Yamna.

    Now just think about this statement and see the contradiction in it.
    Last edited by Alan; 24-03-16 at 23:44.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There is a reconstruction of his face done by Kazakh researchers, and it looks sort of like a modern Kazakh. ;) I'm not sure if this could be trusted.




    Surprisingly for such remote place in Asia, they got pottery by 5th millennium and had Copper Age in 4th. It seems that their was rather good connection and communication between farmers and the people of the steppe, even far away steppe.

    http://www.carnegiemnh.org/science/d...spx?id=16610#2

    It could be a shocker if Copper Age Botai herders had some EEF.
    Yep wouldn't trust that much, a herder group that was autosomally quite different but we know these states have their own interests on it. Ask a white supremacists to paint a picture of Jesus than ask an Afro_Centrist to do the same.
    Last edited by Alan; 24-03-16 at 16:11.

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    By the way, the results showing up recently from these ancient cultures. Irony on all this is, how any yDNA of these folks be it Yamna or successor Poltavka turned out either R1a z93 or R1b l23.

    Why the irony? Well because those two branches are the only one (except R1b V88) who have been considered as the most likely branches of non European origin just a few years ago. Turn out to be the "archtype" of those beloved cultures and seem to have only spred around the Asian continent with the little exception of Southeast Europe which brought most people to the conclusion that it is recent Asian contribution.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    acording to David Anthony, some of the descendents of Botaï were the Kelteminar
    if they had learned full riding skills they would have stayed on the steppe and would have been more succesfull
    instead they were ousted by folks with wagons and oxens and cattle
    Till we get their DNA we don't know if they were replaced or they just "updated" their culture from people with wagons.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga
    They found also hg. J2 in far NorthEast Europe (in Finland?).
    He wasn't described as J2 but just as J (positive for SNPs PF4521, F2114, CTS5934, CTS7028, CTS7229, FGC1599, YSC0000228, CTS11291). And he was not from Finland, but also from Karelia. He was buried in the same Red Deer Island cemetery as that R1a guy from Karelia. Genetiker claimed, that he was actually J1, and not J1a (probably J1b) - link:

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0211/

    One of two Mesolithic Georgians (Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers) was J1b:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post122320

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan
    Mother of god I had a huge long replay and all it tells me is it will be published after a mod has taken a look at it. For what? I hope it didn't disappear. That often happens to me. It is so frustrating.
    It also happens to me often.

    Make sure to copy your text before posting. Or first post "blahblahblah", then click "edit", and paste your real message.
    My PuntDNAL K15 Single Population Sharing:
    # Population(source) Distance
    1 Polish 2.06

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan
    seem to have only spred around the Asian continent with the little exception of Southeast Europe
    R1b-L23(xL51) is actually quite widespread in North-Eastern Europe as well.

    For example in Poland ca. 1 million males - some 5 - 5,5% - carry L23(xL51).

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Till we get their DNA we don't know if they were replaced or they just "updated" their culture from people with wagons.
    we don't have decisive DNA, but what we have today does not speak in favor of Botaï

    corded ware, sintashta, andronovo are all descending from the same R1a1 with TMRCA 5500 years, and autosomal hints toward European origin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    R1b-L23(xL51) is actually quite widespread in North-Eastern Europe as well.

    For example in Poland ca. 1 million males - some 5 - 5,5% - carry L23(xL51).
    what part of Poland has the most?

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    I seems to me Witzel did not support an Iran origin for Indo-Iranian. If I don't mistake, another book considers too that the Indic languages were imported from North. By the way the argument (Goga?) concerning ergative structure in modern Iranic doesn't support an Iran local origin for PIE. The book I refer to is:
    The Indo-Aryan Controversy - Evidence and Inference in Indian History, by Edwin F. BRYANT ( a breton "norman" name!) and Laurel PATTON

    all the way Witzel and the two others doesn't think BMAC was I-Ean, Iranic or not. Let me know if I mistaked (it's boring to read and read again the same things, for my old brain)
    Good reading

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    You don't buy it cause you don't like the results. I always knew the reason why you trust David so much isn't because you are so naive but because you want to trust him. The Scythian samples have 35% of South_Central Asian(most likely Gedrosia showing up) like admixture in older runs and some Caucasus (20%) too, but as I said Oracle runs show these Scythians as ~50-58% modern Tajik/Pashtun and 42-50% East European.
    D-stats are much more reliable. It takes too long to explain the method, but I can assure you ancestry percentages with D-stats are dead-on accurate.

    Here's modelling of our Scythian genome.
    Scythian: 85% Andronovo, 9% Nganasan, 6% Tajik.
    Scythian: 61% Andronovo, 21% Sintashta, 11% Nganasan, 4% Tajik.
    Scythian: 58% Yamnaya, 17% German_Neolithic, 10% Nganasan, 15% Tajik.

    There's no ifs ands or buts about it, this Iron age Scythian was mostly descended of the R1a-Z93 groups who expanded out of Europe around 2500-3000 BC. There's room for minor SC Asian ancestry, but there definitely not significant SC Asian ancestry. I'm not making any statements about Indo Iranian language origins, all I'm saying is this Sycthian is more or less a descendant of Andronovo with minor Siberian and maybe SC Asian admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    D-stats are much more reliable. It takes too long to explain the method, but I can assure you ancestry percentages with D-stats are dead-on accurate.

    Here's modelling of our Scythian genome.
    Scythian: 85% Andronovo, 9% Nganasan, 6% Tajik.
    Scythian: 61% Andronovo, 21% Sintashta, 11% Nganasan, 4% Tajik.
    Scythian: 58% Yamnaya, 17% German_Neolithic, 10% Nganasan, 15% Tajik.

    There's no ifs ands or buts about it, this Iron age Scythian was mostly descended of the R1a-Z93 groups who expanded out of Europe around 2500-3000 BC. There's room for minor SC Asian ancestry, but there definitely not significant SC Asian ancestry. I'm not making any statements about Indo Iranian language origins, all I'm saying is this Sycthian is more or less a descendant of Andronovo with minor Siberian and maybe SC Asian admixture.
    Autosomal analysis of Karelian EHG with R1a by Genetiker:

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...-from-karelia/

    Autosomal analysis of Samaran EHG with R1b by Genetiker:

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...e-from-samara/

    Some minor "South_Asian" admixture is showing up.

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