R1a-Z93 in Yamnaya

Goga said:
Omg, some people trully live in a dream world. There have been many studies done and all those academic studie concluded the same thing that R1a can be from Europe.

.
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How many times we have to mention that we are not talking about ethnogenesis of R1a haplogroup but its subclades Z93 and Z283 in time and area of Yamnaya culture. The oldest ever were found there and we believe it coincides with formation of IEs.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
@Lebrok,

The statistically chances that 7/7 NorthEast Yamnaya come out R1b-Z2013, despite lets say 30% of them in reality having R1a-Z93, is 8%. There's no doubt the Poltvaka R1a-Z93 guy came from a differnt population, a population who had ~100% R1a-Z93 instead of ~100% R1b-Z2103. Either that population lived side by side Samara Yamnaya, or they came from a differnt location. Considering they had ~30% Neolithic European admixture, they certainly came very far to the West in Central/East Europe.
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It doesn't look they have mixed very well. It is obvious that Z93 became the horsemen of the steppe and moved into Asia. Possibly some minor Z2103 got mixed with them, but I'm not sure how these 2 correlate in Asia to conclude their close relation or not. I can't find good maps. It might be the case that Z93 horsemen warriors pushed Z2103 (herder/farmers?) through mountains to Anatolia (Hittites?).
 
LeBrok said:
It doesn't look they have mixed very well. It is obvious that Z93 became the horsemen of the steppe and moved into Asia. Possibly some minor Z2103 got mixed with them, but I'm not sure how these 2 correlate in Asia to conclude their close relation or not. I can't find good maps. It might be the case that Z93 horsemen warriors pushed Z2103 (herder/farmers?) through mountains to Anatolia (Hittites?).
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Yeah, it'll be interesting what we learn next with ancient DNA. We should have getting Paleolithic-Historical era DNA from both Italy and Iberia by next year. Lots of DNA from genomes ranging every era from all of West Asia and Europe are currently being sampled. I'm confident we'll see a migration of unknown close relatives of EEF who lived in Mesoptamia or Levant, into South Europe and Turkey. Especially Turkey, we might see a completle replacement of EEFs in Turkey. It'll be interesting to get Hittitte DNA. They'll certainly be very differnt from EEF, and may or may not have R1b-Z2103. I'm not sure the Steppe hypthesis is true, so who knows what Y DNA they'll have.

Volga-Ural today still has a significant mount of both Z2103 and Z93, so the Z2103 and Z93 groups must have mixed eventually. People from Volga-Ural with Z2103 and Z93 who tested at FTDNA, belong to the same deep subclades that Yamnaya and Andronvo did. Actually, a high coverage Yamnaya Z2103's closest known relative is a modern Bashkir Z2103, they share mutations not yet on any official tree.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
Volga-Ural today still has a significant mount of both Z2103 and Z93, so the Z2103 and Z93 groups must have mixed eventually. People from Volga-Ural with Z2103 and Z93 who tested at FTDNA, belong to the same deep subclades that Yamnaya and Andronvo did. Actually, a high coverage Yamnaya Z2103's closest known relative is a modern Bashkir Z2103, they share mutations not yet on any official tree.
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Eventually they have mixed, however it'll be interesting to see if they took part in same IE migration or they didn't mix much originally and went to south in separate waves.
Like Z93 being Indo-Aryans
Underhill_Z93.png



And Z 2103 Iranians, or Anatolians:
Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif
 
Goga said:
EAST Iranian language spoken by the so called Scythians was from BMAC and NOT from the Steppes..
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it appears to be your personal opinions hardly or even unsupported by serious sources. I always wonder about the enormous self-esteem of people like you.
 
Maciamo's map of Z93 is far more accurate than that auto-generated (and based on small samples) map from Underhill:

Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Eurasia.png
 
Like Z93 being Indo-Aryans
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Indo-Aryan specific is only R1a-L657, which is the most common subclade of Z93 in India.

But it is only one of branches of Z93.

Z93 or Z94 as a whole is Proto-Indo-Iranian, as is obvious from ancient DNA results so far.

We have Z93+ in Yamna, Poltavka, Potapovka, Sintashta, Srubna, Andronovo, etc., etc.
 
Botai people were supposedly hunter-gatherers who domesticated horses in order to hunt from horseback.

So pretty much like 18th century Amerindians from the Great Plains who hunted buffaloes from horseback.

This is what Dieneks claimed (see the link above). If they were EHG, then they could have some sort of R1.
 
LeBrok said:
How many times we have to mention that we are not talking about ethnogenesis of R1a haplogroup but its subclades Z93 and Z283 in time and area of Yamnaya culture. The oldest ever were found there and we believe it coincides with formation of IEs.
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It's you who don't get it!
Z93 and descendant of Z93, Z94 are all NATIVE to West Asia. this is what the REAL scientists are concluding. Not the uneducated phony wannabe ones on forumsites. Of course according to the uneducated amateur racists everything is different. But wtf are those amateur racists? Nobody, and they will be always nobody and nothing!

Are YOU against science? It would be a big shame!

According the latest major and the most recent ACADEMIC study on R1a:


" CONCLUSION

Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html


Like I said R1a in the Steppes is from West Asia ( the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey ). R1a could enter the Steppes from Iran on the EASTERN side of the Caspian Sea via Kazakhstan and it is not even far from the Volga River, while R1b entered Yamnaya from the Caucasus, Maykop. This is what every recent academic study suggests.


Anatolian_hypothesis.jpg





Why don't you get? If you don't like science, it is not my problem but YOURS!
 
dodona said:
it appears to be your personal opinions hardly or even unsupported by serious sources. I always wonder about the enormous self-esteem of people like you.
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Is this ALL what you can tell?


You know that all what I'm saying is true and supported by the science. Eastern Iranian languages are native to the BMAC, not the Steppes. This is FACT! Scythians sopke an East Iranic language that was native to BMAC and NOT to the Steppes. So called Scythians in the Steppes were just 'Iranized' bunch of savages.

If you can't denounce my arguments, just say nothing than this kind of hatred replies.


You seems to be from Greece. It is a big shame that you never learned anything useful from Aristoteles..
 
Goga said:
It's you who don't get it!
Z93 and descendant of Z93, Z94 are all NATIVE to West Asia. this is what the REAL scientist are concluding. Of course according to the uneducated amateur racists everything is different. But wtf are those amateur racists? Nobody, and they will be always nobody and nothing!


According the latest major and the most recent ACADEMIC study on R1a:


" CONCLUSION

Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html


Like I said R1a in the Steppes is from West Asia ( the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey ). R1a could enter the Steppes from Iran on the EASTERN side of the Caspian Sea via Kazakhstan and it is not even far from the Volga River, while R1b entered Yamnaya from the Caucasus, Maykop. This is what every recent academic study suggests.


Anatolian_hypothesis.jpg





Why don't you get? If you don't like science, it is not my problem but YOURS!
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+ FACT is that ALL those ancient R1a samples in the Steppes have West Asian auDNA in them to some degree! This supports the argument that R1a in the Steppes came from Iranian Plateau via the Eastern side of the Caspian Sea. Kazakhstan (Eastern side of the Volga River) borders the Iranian Plateau for GOD sake. Of course there will be R1a in Kazakhstan and R1a in the Steppes in general!


" CONCLUSION

Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence. "

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html
 
@Goga,

Karelia_HG had Y DNA R1a. As far as we know he had no Basal Eurasian ancestry, which is how we identify West Asian admixture. Our tree currently isn't perfect, however it is still very unlikely Karelia_HG had any recent or significant West Asian ancestry. However, genome-wide data doesn't tell everything about distant Y DNA origins. For example there are people in Africa with R1b-V88 and no obvious signs of West Eurasian admixture. That doesn't mean R1b originated in Africa.

The best evidence I can see that Z93 is from Asia, is that all of the Bronze age European guys who had Z93 belonged to a specfic subclade which is rare in SouthCentral Asia today. That supports the idea that Z93 began in West Asia, with one branch going north to Europe and another east to India.

Also, the lines separates modern European and West Asian are blurred when you go back 8,000 years. Most of all European's ancestors were living in West Asia and in people similar to most of the ancestors of West Asian's 8,000 years ago. Yamnaya wasn't a very West Asian people, because they were roughly 50%. Swedes are more than 50%. Yamnaya reduced Basal Eurasian/West Asian levels significantly in Europe. When you look at it from a God-like view, European isn't very exotic to West Asian. There's enough difference for phenotype to be noticeable differnt, but there's lots of sharing. You shouldn't be so scared of R1a-Z93 being European, because it's less exotic than you think.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
@Goga,

Karelia_HG had Y DNA R1a. As far as we know he had no Basal Eurasian ancestry, which is how we identify West Asian admixture. Our tree currently isn't perfect, however it is still very unlikely Karelia_HG had any recent or significant West Asian ancestry. However, genome-wide data doesn't tell everything about distant Y DNA origins. For example there are people in Africa with R1b-V88 and no obvious signs of West Eurasian admixture. That doesn't mean R1b originated in Africa.
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Karelia_HG R1a was different to Z93 and not ancestral haplogroup to Z93 at all. It was a very different lineage, and I'm not sure but that Karelia_HG R1a lineage is extinct today

They found also hg. J2 in far NorthEast Europe (in Finland?). Also that NorthEast European H&G almost lacked West Asian auDNA. Doesn't mean that J2 is not native West Asia.


There was also a very ancient migration from South to North, and hg. J2 is the best evidence for that.


Modern R1a-Z93 is VERY different to Karelia_HG with absolutely no relation to it. Like modern J2a is very different to NorthEast European HG with absolutely no relation to it either. Ancient North European R1a* or J2 haplogroups have nothing to do with modern R1a-Z93 or J2a. There're no direct links at all.



And of course there is not only Z93 from Iran in the Steppes, if they look further there would be much more other haplogroups from West Asia in the Steppes. Nothing special.

There is also a lot modern Z93 in the Steppes from the 'modern' Iranian speakers..
 
Fire Haired14 said:
R1a-Z93 guys have lots of EEF admixture. EEF lived in Europe and Turkey. So, it is unlikely Z93 came from Central Asia.
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Not necessarily, in EN we can find I2 hunter gatherers and I2 farmers. Depending where they live and if they mixed with farmers. The same might be with Z93 of early Yamnaya.
 
Tomenable said:
Botai people were supposedly hunter-gatherers who domesticated horses in order to hunt from horseback.

So pretty much like 18th century Amerindians from the Great Plains who hunted buffaloes from horseback.

This is what Dieneks claimed (see the link above). If they were EHG, then they could have some sort of R1.
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It might be, however milk and some sort of cheese was found in Botai ceramics and they have kept horses in enclosures. Once they have domesticated horses they lived more like herders than hunters. They as well learned to ride horses when tending and moving the herd to new pastures. Who knows?
Equivalent for Amerindians is, had they domesticated buffaloes, milk them and rode them. :)
 
Fire Haired14 said:
I'm stating the fact Sycthians were descendants of Sintashta. We know this because we have Sycthian and Sintashta DNA. I never stated Sintashta were proto-Indo Iranians. I don't know whether they were. Since they belonged to a downstream clade of Z93, not found in South Asia, that suggests they weren't. It's possible proto-Indo Iranian lived west of Sintashta in Russia or West Asia.

You got to understand many people speak languages that most of their ancestors didn't. For example, Austrians speak a German language, but are mostly Polish and Balkan-like, not German-like. West Germans, South Dutch, and Swiss speak a German language, but are far more similar to French than to other Germans. English speak a German language, but are mostly of British Celtic-decent. All the major language families of Europe probably spread in the Bronze age or later, with maybe not much gene flow. There's endless examples of people who speak a differnt language than their ancestors did.
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How much I usually disagree with Goga in this case he is quite right and you are not stating the "fact" but merely put up your hypothesis and conclusions based on a rumor.

It is no fact that R1a was found in Yamna, even if it was, it is no fact that this Yamna R1a z93 was autosomally similar to that Poltavka sample. How do you know he was 30% EEF? Have you seen official or even unoffical aDNA tests on this mystery Yamna R1a? Irony is Sintashta has 40% EEF. So if Sintashta descend of Poltavka how logical does it seem that Sintashta has more EEF than Poltavka? Did they pick up EEF from West or did it increase the further East they went?

Also he is right that their is no evidence that Sintashta is linguistic forefathers of Iranic tribes. Sintashta looks like an ancient Indo_Iranic culture but not ancestral to Iranic groups.

In fact it is true that East iranic tongues are connected the Srubnaya-Yaz connection. Look at page 7
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/SPP129-IndoIranArch.pdf

Look at the origin point in Northeast Iran. This is Yaz culture

e Yaz culture was an early Iron Age culture of Bactria and Margiana (ca. 1500-1100 BC).[1] It has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta.
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Do you see any linguistic connection between this early east Iranic Yaz culture and Sintashta? I only see connection to the Srubnaya (Cimmerian) culture.


Indo Iranian languages are no exception. Sycthians and Persians are as differnt as two West Eurasian populations can be, but they spoke closely related languages. At somepoint Indo Iranian languages expanded with little gene flow. As much as you say you're not, it's pretty obvious you don't want the language to have expanded in your region with little gene flow. The langage Kurds speak doesn't define them.
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So let me get that straight, you have done aDNA tests on Medes-Parthians and Persians to tell us how much the language the Kurds or Persians speak define them. You can tell with 100% certinity that these two ancient groups came from Sintashta while there is not even very close linguistic relationship between it and the early East Iranic Yaz culture?

How do you know that the Medes-Parthians and Persians didn't start off in the Yaz or Kura Araxes culture but can say in such a convinced way that they came directly from Sintashta?

Also did you know that in oracle tests the Scythians can be modeled as ~58% Tajik/Pashtun and 42% Russian or in general 50% East European and 50% something West_South_Central Asian. So think about that comment of language not defining them again and let not all your knowledge be based on the blog of one single individual who has a stake on all of that. Instead ask around by many knowledgeable individuals and scientists and make your mind up than.

Sorry for the neg rep, wasn't meant that way.
 
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