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Thread: R1a-Z93 in Yamnaya

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14
    It's almost non-existent outside of Central Asia.
    The map shows that a large area of India has 10-15 percent frequency of it, and another large area has 7,5-10 percent. I wouldn't call this "almost non-existent" especially considering that India has a population density of over 1000 per 1 square mile.

    That said, the original Indo-Aryans were most likely under L657 (equivalent of M780) subclade of R1a.

    Z2125 is probably from later Iranic groups which invaded India (just like U106 came to Britain later than L21):

    Nowhere in the world outside the Greater Iran have the Iranian People reached prominence as they have in India. The history of Iranic and Indic peoples is very much intertwined. As they both are the descendants of Indo-Iranian people who separated some 5000 years ago. Subsequent Iranian Empires have successively controlled north-west and north India through the history. Starting with the Persian Achaemenid Empire, followed by Bactrian Empire, Parthian Empire, Kushan Empire, Indo-Saka Empire, Indo-Parthian Empire, Hephthalites Empire, Sassanid Empire, etc, etc. This has caused a continuous stream of Iranic people penetrating India and settling in different parts of this land.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Basal paragroup R1a-Z93* has been found in Russia and in Poland:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...olish-R1a-Z93*

    Quote: "YFull's new haplotree shows 3 examples of R1a-Z93* . Two of them are Russian, one Polish."

    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z93*/

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    @Tomenable,

    Didn't notice it did have a noticble frequency outside of Central Asia. Still, it goes against the idea Andronovo is the source of L657/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The map shows that a large area of India has 10-15 percent frequency of it, and another large area has 7,5-10 percent. I wouldn't call this "almost non-existent" especially considering that India has a population density of over 1000 per 1 square mile.

    That said, the original Indo-Aryans were most likely under L657 (equivalent of M780) subclade of R1a.

    Z2125 is probably from later Iranic groups which invaded India (just like U106 came to Britain later than L21):
    it's all quite complicated
    at least 3 R1a tribes invaded India, and probalby more

    Vedic invasion
    Indo-Scythian invasion
    Yuezhi from Bactria

    hard to tell which is the exact origing of specific R1a in India

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Basal paragroup R1a-Z93* has been found in Russia and in Poland:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...olish-R1a-Z93*

    Quote: "YFull's new haplotree shows 3 examples of R1a-Z93* . Two of them are Russian, one Polish."

    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z93*/
    Cimmerian?
    Scythian?
    Sarmatian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Frequency map of R1a-Z2125. This is the branch of Z93, most Sintashta/Andronovo/etc belonged to. It's almost non-existent outside of Central Asia. So, IMO, this does not support the idea Sintashta-descendants migrated to SC Asia and brought Z93.
    There have been a lot of steppe transitions since then and steppe transitions seem to have a particularly dramatic impact on the ydna (because it's so flat and refuge-less i guess).

    This is possibly hinted at in your map with the surviving lines being mostly in the neighboring mountains.

    If you look at a general R1a map

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._R_(Y-DNA).PNG

    it looks to me like R1a at one point might have been a large contiguous crescent shape and then had a slice cut through the middle by Turkic/Mongol expansion from north east Asia across and then down into the middle east.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Fire Haired14,

    L657 could only be a minority lineage in Sintashta, because it is too young to be numerous back then.

    Sintashta culture existed in 2100-1800 BC, while TMRCA of L657 was ca. 1600 BC (according to YFull):

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

    R1a samples collected so far from Sintashta, Srubna and Andronovo are certainly older than 1600 BC.

    =====================

    Some dates for you:

    TMRCA of L657 according to YFull - 1600 (95% Confidence Interval: 2400-900) BC

    Yamnaya - 1 sample of R1a (it is older than 3000 BC)
    Poltavka Outlier - 1 sample of R1a (age 2925-2536 BC)
    Xiaohe mummies - 11 x R1a (dated to 2558-1940 BC)
    Potapovka - 2 samples of R1a (dated to 2469-1900 BC)
    Sintashta - 2 samples of R1a (dated to 2298-1896 BC)
    Srubnaya - 6 samples of R1a (dated to 1850-1200 BC)
    Andronovo - 3 samples of R1a (dated to 1800-1298 BC)

    L657 rose to numerical prominence only in a more recent period.

    And today L657 is undoubtedly the most numerous of all subclades of R1a-Z93.

    So its expansion from a few men to a few hundred million men was impressive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Fire Haired14, [B]Some dates for you:
    extremely useful. Thanks a lot!

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    R1a in Eastern Europe is very monotonous, mostly from 1 very recent source. Very young and recent subclades, which indicate a very recent migration and bottleneck/'elite dominance'.






    While R1a in NorthWest Asian modern population is much more diverse and much more older than elsewhere in the world.




    http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/0...t-al-2014.html
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786




    " CONCLUSION

    Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence.
    "

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201450a.html



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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It could be a shocker if Copper Age Botai herders had some EEF.
    1. botai people reconstruction


    2. comb ceramic :
    The oldest ones have been discovered from the remains of Liao civilization(BC 6200 - 5400 BC), so the Urheimat is assumed to beLiao region and spread afterward to North Europe through Siberia and to Korean peniusla. This is possibly related to Uralic migration and spread ofhaprogroup N (Y-DNA).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_Ceramic


    - Liao region: just above the North Korea




    3. Problem is 7,000 years ago EEF ( lots of right burial types) might migrate from Germany to Korea



    - EEF pottery in Korea


    --> altai area (especially Astana)locates in the middle of comb ceramic zone, hence, they might have EEF

    AND

    oct.2013: Using HSV-1 genome phylogenetics to track past human migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Thanks for the docs, Lebrok: a bit apart of this very thread, I think the reconsitution (if concerning the profile crania photo) is not very reliable; too broad skull, I think, and a female look not confirmed by the original profile; I would have been pleased if I could have a picture taken in front;
    in more than one reconstruction I already noticed the lack of muscular relief of the jaws, what diminish the live supposed breadth of jaws.
    Today Kazakhs (apart the ancient Russians colons) are heavily influenced by diverse 'east-asian' types, when the profile provided here doesn't seem confirming an heavy 'east-asian' imput. I know a profile is not sufficient to judge... the surveys I red stated the first 'east-asian' visible physical influences in Kazakhstan began at Iron Age only and I don't think it has been falsified.
    All the way all these reconstructions are bets concerning forms of mouth, eyelids, eyebrows, fleshy part of nose and so on!
    allways pleased when I can see a good crania picture (everybody has its own deviances! Some preferred playmates of Playboy...
    As for the Botai culture I have to intervene. When people here don't believe Turkic anthropologists, as they seem to be racist and lying, we could at least believe Italian linguists and Russian chemists.

    http://www.continuitas.org/news.html
    PCP SCIENTIFIC NEWS
    Edited by Mario Alinei, Xaverio Ballester, Francesco Benozzo
    07/12/2009

    "
    4. ENEOLITHIC AND HORSE DOMESTICATION. A study by A.K. Outram, N.A.Stear, R. Bendrey, S. Olsen, A. Kasparov, V. Zaibert, N. Thorpe, R.P. Evershed ("Science" 323, 2009, pp. 1332-1335) definitively confirms that horse domestication first took place in northern Kazakhstan, in the framework of the Eneolithic Botai culture, dating to about 3500 B.C.E. Analysis of organic residues also reveals milking of mares. See, on the same subject, "Trail of Mare's Milk Leads to First Tamed Horses", in Science 322, 2008, p. 368.
    A comment by M.A.: Surprisingly, the authors still refer to works of Anthony, Mallory and Piggot, according to which "domestication of horse is associated with the spread of Indo-European languages and culture". Modern archaeology (beginning with Renfrew) has demolished this theory. Moreover, overwhelming linguistic evidence, among which most important is the spread of exclusively Turkic loanword related to horse terminology in all languages of Eastern Europe, both Indo-European and Uralic, shows that horse domestication is a fundamental Turkic innovation. It is no accident that the Botai culture is a khazak culture, belonging to the Turkic-speaking area, and not to the IE-, or Uralic-speaking one! Myths and dogmas are hard to die! (M.A.)"

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++

    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...enealogyEn.htm
    Anatole A. Klyosov Proceedings of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy, vol. 3, No. 1, 2010"The Türkic-speaking bearers of Asian R1b haplotypes and their descendants largely remained in Asia, the rest had moved to the Caucasus, the Middle East, ancient Europe. 5,700-5,100 years ago in the North Kazakhstan they established the Botai archeological culture, and according to the latest data, about 5,500 years ago horse was domesticated there (Archaeology, Jan-Feb 2010). In addition to the Botai settlement dated 3,700-3,100 BC (it certainly was the haplogroup R1b, since the carriers of the R1a1 appeared in those regions only 1500-2000 years later). A summer camp dated 1,200-900 BC, i.e. 3,200-2,900 years ago, was found there. However, these were much more recent times, and the camp might have been established by the Andronovans, “Indo-European” R1a1, after a departure of a part of their tribe to India. They could also be the Türkic-speaking R1b1. The archaeologists, naturally, did not get into such distinctions. They simply noted that the camp belonged to the Bronze Age."

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    the question is not whether the Botaï domesticated the horse, the question is to what extent did they domesticate the horse and for what purpose
    and where they the first?
    the Botaï swithced all of a sudden from HG to horse herding without any other antecedents
    David Anthony suggests the Botaï learned about horse herding from the Afanasievo people, moving from the Volga area to the Altaï

    conc Turkic loanwords in horse terminology, what exact words are we talking about?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhs

    The Kazakhs are descendants of the Turkic and medieval Mongol tribes – Argyns, Dughlats, Naimans, Jalairs, Khazars, Qarluqs; and of theKipchaks and Cumans,[23][24] and other tribes such as the Huns, and ancient Iranian nomads like the Sarmatians, Saka and Scythians from East Europe populated the territory between Siberia and the Black Sea and remained in Central Asia and Eastern Europe when the nomadic groups started to invade and conquer the area between the 5th and 13th centuries AD.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    It is no accident that the Botai culture is a khazak culture,belonging to the Turkic-speaking area, and not to the IE-, or Uralic-speaking one! Myths and dogmas are hard to die! (M.A.)"

    I don't mind if Botai spoke some form of proto-proto-Turkic language. As well they could. I just don't understand why you want to create a new dogma, making Botai a Turkic Culture?!!! We have no idea what language they spoke, or if it was even remotely Turkic or not. They certainly had different beliefs, different way of life, traditions, clothing, songs, etc, etc. Nothing to do with Turkic of any known Turkic culture, or even proto-Turkic of 2000 years ago. Just because they resided in are of Kazakhstan they didn't need to speak the same language. On same grounds we could proclaim that Anatolians spoke Turkic language because Turkey occupies same geographical location. We know the statement is false, and this logic has no merits.



    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...enealogyEn.htm
    Anatole A. Klyosov ..., and according to the latest data, about 5,500 years ago horse was domesticated there (Archaeology, Jan-Feb 2010). In addition to the Botai settlement dated 3,700-3,100 BC (it certainly was the haplogroup R1b, .........since the carriers of the R1a1 appeared in those regions only 1500-2000 years later).
    Perhaps so, but this is one speculation after another. Why don't we wait for genetic anthropology to catch up.
    Another issue is, how important is to brag about possible R1b in Botai? Is this something to be proud of?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    As for the Botai culture I have to intervene. When people here don't believe Turkic anthropologists, as they seem to be racist and lying, we could at least believe Italian linguists and Russian chemists.

    http://www.continuitas.org/news.html
    PCP SCIENTIFIC NEWS
    Edited by Mario Alinei, Xaverio Ballester, Francesco Benozzo
    07/12/2009

    "
    4. ENEOLITHIC AND HORSE DOMESTICATION. A study by A.K. Outram, N.A.Stear, R. Bendrey, S. Olsen, A. Kasparov, V. Zaibert, N. Thorpe, R.P. Evershed ("Science" 323, 2009, pp. 1332-1335) definitively confirms that horse domestication first took place in northern Kazakhstan, in the framework of the Eneolithic Botai culture, dating to about 3500 B.C.E. Analysis of organic residues also reveals milking of mares. See, on the same subject, "Trail of Mare's Milk Leads to First Tamed Horses", in Science 322, 2008, p. 368.
    A comment by M.A.: Surprisingly, the authors still refer to works of Anthony, Mallory and Piggot, according to which "domestication of horse is associated with the spread of Indo-European languages and culture". Modern archaeology (beginning with Renfrew) has demolished this theory. Moreover, overwhelming linguistic evidence, among which most important is the spread of exclusively Turkic loanword related to horse terminology in all languages of Eastern Europe, both Indo-European and Uralic, shows that horse domestication is a fundamental Turkic innovation. It is no accident that the Botai culture is a khazak culture, belonging to the Turkic-speaking area, and not to the IE-, or Uralic-speaking one! Myths and dogmas are hard to die! (M.A.)"

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++

    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...enealogyEn.htm
    Anatole A. Klyosov Proceedings of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy, vol. 3, No. 1, 2010"The Türkic-speaking bearers of Asian R1b haplotypes and their descendants largely remained in Asia, the rest had moved to the Caucasus, the Middle East, ancient Europe. 5,700-5,100 years ago in the North Kazakhstan they established the Botai archeological culture, and according to the latest data, about 5,500 years ago horse was domesticated there (Archaeology, Jan-Feb 2010). In addition to the Botai settlement dated 3,700-3,100 BC (it certainly was the haplogroup R1b, since the carriers of the R1a1 appeared in those regions only 1500-2000 years later). A summer camp dated 1,200-900 BC, i.e. 3,200-2,900 years ago, was found there. However, these were much more recent times, and the camp might have been established by the Andronovans, “Indo-European” R1a1, after a departure of a part of their tribe to India. They could also be the Türkic-speaking R1b1. The archaeologists, naturally, did not get into such distinctions. They simply noted that the camp belonged to the Bronze Age."

    1- Why did you put my post as if you were answering it when your own post has nothing to do with it (my own post concerned reconstruction upon skeletons remnants, without any opinion concerning other things.
    2- Personally I 've nothing systematic against national categories of scientists or posters.
    3- Mario Alinei supported cocerning I-E in Occident some thesis which seems to me very unreliable, even if this man has some linguistic credit among some people.
    4- Turkic tribes in Botai? I have not made my opinion yet. But a Y-R1b original group for them seems to me an adventurous bet at this stage of our knowledge.
    5- to come back to language, I would be pleased to have some precise and nearly complete serious survey about the (so called?) I-E and uralic east-european terms for the horses world. What does not say I see a problem in the fact that Turkic people would have domesticated horses before others: it's not a competition bewteen us and by the fact steppic Turks were surely good rider...

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    Please, show me all these Turkic horse training and riding loan words in all IE languages. I would love to see them.

    I imagine they're exclusive to regions that fell under very very very recent Turkic expansion of the middle ages, or relatively recent hunnic expansions if we agree that Huns were Turkic and not Iranic. I think most sane academics agree that the Huns were the late classical West's first contact with Turkic speaking peoples.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the question is not whether the Botaï domesticated the horse, the question is to what extent did they domesticate the horse and for what purpose and where they the first? the Botaï swithced all of a sudden from HG to horse herding without any other antecedents David Anthony suggests the Botaï learned about horse herding from the Afanasievo people, moving from the Volga area to the Altaï
    Botai was a relatively short living culture which disappeared after a couple of centuries. If they invented horse domestication then their military advance was so big that they would have conquered the whole russian steppe, and most of Eurasia in a short period. This definitely wasn't the case therefore all the stories about kumis drinking Botai people living in jurtes can't be true.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Please, show me all these Turkic horse training and riding loan words in all IE languages. I would love to see them.

    I imagine they're exclusive to regions that fell under very very very recent Turkic expansion of the middle ages, or relatively recent hunnic expansions if we agree that Huns were Turkic and not Iranic. I think most sane academics agree that the Huns were the late classical West's first contact with Turkic speaking peoples.


    I have some diverse I-Ean terms for horse world at hand and I looked at some turkic words for the same ground and I did not find evident link; even the slavic word
    konj for "horse" seems absent of today turkic languages (maybe replaced? I don't know). By the way, if I rely upon some Hungarian old scientist, the Finnic-Uralic languages had contact with I-Ean and Indo-Iranic (loanwords), but he did not cite any turkic influence at this stage. When speaking about later Hungarians (Magyars of the Steppes), this scientist spoke of some stabilization around the Don, and evident turkic influences on the language at this stage, but it doesn't concern the horse world, it concerns principally the agriculture one: culture and breeding: ovins, caprins, bovins, porcins NOT horses!
    So if Turcs domesticated horse before others, it doesn't appear too clearly in the languages of their I-Ean and Finnic-Ugric neighbours.

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    So if Turcs domesticated horse before others, it doesn't appear too clearly in the languages of their I-Ean and Finnic-Ugric neighbours.[/I]
    the idea that Turks (who appeared very late in history) invented horse riding belongs to the old racist ideologies of the 19th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dodona View Post
    the idea that Turks (who appeared very late in history) invented horse riding belongs to the old racist ideologies of the 19th century.

    -Here I discussed the linguistic point.
    - &: "racist ideologies? what is that? "racist" is a dead word as it has been used in so many wrong ways;
    -Turcs were not born from nobody nowhere or from Mars green monsters, they had ancestors like us. So? The question is not the date of their apparition in documented history but the facts we could have or not have concerning horse domestication an cavalry use. I have no opinion for now only believings I don't want expose at this stage.
    Sometime, invention is not only linked to a specific human group ability but to hazard and natural environment (flora fauna topography...). Maybe steppes were the best place...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dodona View Post
    the idea that Turks (who appeared very late in history) invented horse riding .
    You might be onto something. If Turks were first to domesticate horses they would have been more mobile and much sooner.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Lebrok, your point is sensible. But perhaps metals working knowledge (weapons) could have played a role too? Bronze seem late enough East the Altay, but Iron there seems not very later than elsewhere; and Iron seems the starter of East Asian/Altay first moves. Maybe it doesn't prove too much things concerning culture but the first appearence of strong East-Asian demic imput East the Caspian (Kazakhstan) began at Iron Age, if what I red is true.

    Personally I don't think Turks were the first horses tamers but...? It's true these regions were not my first place of interest. I have to learn a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Lebrok, your point is sensible. But perhaps metals working knowledge (weapons) could have played a role too? Bronze seem late enough East the Altay, but Iron there seems not very later than elsewhere; and Iron seems the starter of East Asian/Altay first moves. Maybe it doesn't prove too much things concerning culture but the first appearence of strong East-Asian demic imput East the Caspian (Kazakhstan) began at Iron Age, if what I red is true.

    Personally I don't think Turks were the first horses tamers but...? It's true these regions were not my first place of interest. I have to learn a bit.
    Nothing is certain, that's for sure. It might be the case that Turks took part in domestication of horses but didn't build up in population numbers to conquer anyone till medieval times, or were lacking bronze or iron, as you said. It'll be interesting to finally learn haplogroup of Botai people.

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    @Alan,

    I got DNAland results for the Sycthian guy. DNAland gives modern regional ancestry percentages. It trys to determine what part of the world you're from. He got almost 100% NorthCentral and NortEast European. I forget the rest. I have other evidence, but don't feel like gathering. He was basically Andronovo+10% something Siberian. Maybe he had a little bit something else, but that's mostly what he was.

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    @ Fire Haired14

    Do you know that in the Eastern ARYAN Zoroastrian Avesta writings Scythia and Scythians are not part of the 16 native original lands of the Aryans? Scythians were NEVER considered by the real true Aryans, like the Medes, ancient Persians, Sogdians, Bactrians etc. as Aryan people. It is true that Scythians spoke East Iranic, but that's because they were colonized by the Eastern Aryans, like I did explain before..


    Airyanem Vaejo - Iran
    Sukhdho - Tajikistan
    Mourum - South Turkmenistan
    Bakhdhim - North Afghanistan
    Nisaim - Northeast Iran
    Haroyum - Northwest Afghanistan
    Vaekeretem - Eastern Afghanistan
    Urvam - Uzbekistan
    Khnentem Vehrkano - North-northeast Iran
    Harahvaitim - South Central Afghanistan
    Haetumantem - SE Afghanistan & E Iran
    Rakham - North Iran
    Chakhrem - North Iran
    Varenem - North Iran
    Hapta Hendu - N. Pakistan & NW India
    Ranghaya - Kurdistan



    http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/airyanavaeja.htm#haptahindu

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    Olá. Hello. My name is Nuno. Family name (paternal) is Meco. My father's male previous generations have been living in Portugal (south) for what i least know, 120 years. My latest ydna test showed me R1a-Z93. And nothing more. I tested for Z94, but it was negative. Just to say i found interesting being this ydna haplogroup and being here for about 4800 years and so far as Portugal. Cheers.

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