R1a-Z93 in Yamnaya

[Fire Haired14]

Someone leaked on a Russian website that David Reich has sampled DNA from a Yamnaya man who belonged to Y DNA haplogroup R1a-Z93("R1a1a1d2a"). We already have a R1a-Z94 sample from Poltvaka, a successor culture of Yamnaya. This R1a-Z94 man had about 30% Middle Neolithic European(Neolithic Turkey, with minor WHG) ancestry unlike Yamnaya, and clearly represents a migration from west of the Volga.

The same is probably true for this R1a-Z93 Yamnaya guy. These heavily EEF/WHG admixed R1a-Z93 people, migrated into Asia around 2000 BC and became Sintashta and then became the historical Sycthians who the Greeks knew in the Iron age. IMO, it's very likely that west of the Volga river and East of Germany, there had been hyprid EEF/WHG/Steppe populations since as early as 3500 BC. This R1a-Z94 Yamnaya guy will be our earliest example, because he probably lived around 3000 BC.

Nadezhdinka is a grave 1 of kurgan 1. It is the main grave. The boy lie in a deep pit, Y-hapl: R1a1a1d2a. He was laying on the back, feet bent, arms not survived. The head was covered by dark red ocher, next to the left shoulder there were round-bottom vessel and conch shell. Both grave and inventory - typical for Volga Yamnaya. Kurgan was on a bank of Bolshoy Irgiz river(left tributary of a Volga) — N 52 12', Е 48 39 '. I have to note that East Yamnaya(Volga-Ural) is dated 3400 — 2900 ВС. West Yamnaya - 3100-2400 ВС. And later he wrote: The result was sent by professor Reich, is not yet published.

[Goga]

Someone leaked on a Russian website that David Reich has sampled DNA from a Yamnaya man who belonged to Y DNA haplogroup R1a-Z93("R1a1a1d2a"). We already have a R1a-Z94 sample from Poltvaka, a successor culture of Yamnaya. This R1a-Z94 man had about 30% Middle Neolithic European(Neolithic Turkey, with minor WHG) ancestry unlike Yamnaya, and clearly represents a migration from west of the Volga.

The same is probably true for this R1a-Z93 Yamnaya guy. These heavily EEF/WHG admixed R1a-Z93 people, migrated into Asia around 2000 BC and became Sintashta and then became the historical Sycthians who the Greeks knew in the Iron age. IMO, it's very likely that west of the Volga river and East of Germany, there had been hyprid EEF/WHG/Steppe populations since as early as 3500 BC. This R1a-Z94 Yamnaya guy will be our earliest example, because he probably lived around 3000 BC.

Ho ho, not so fast. According to rozenfeld fella from anthrogenica they found R1a on the Estern side of Volga River, near Kazakhstan. That R1a can be from everywhere. Because it's not far from the Iranian Plateau. It can be directly from the Iranian Plateau (BMAC) or from Central Asia.

[Goga]

Also, the language the Scythians spoke was East Iranic. That EAST Iranic language evolved around BMAC and NOT in Sintashta or something like that, that's a fact!


Don't claim something where you don't have any knowledge about!

[Tomenable]

Is R1a1a1d2a really under Z93 ???

On Anthrogenica someone user Parasar wrote:

R1a1a1d2a would be on the Z283-Z2911 branch.

[Goga]

I don't know what's going on, but some people (with hidden agenda) are glad to make some very fast but false conclusions.


The fact is that Saka or Scythians spoke an EAST Iranic language. That language evolved around BMAC (Iranian Plateau) and it is NOT from Europe or even Sintashta, lol!

[Tomenable]

Parasar claims, that this Yamnaya R1a belongs to Z283 (= European branch of R1a).

I'm not sure, I could not find "R1a1a1d2a" in ISOGG:

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

[Angela]

Before everyone gets too excited did anyone check whether this was actually published somewhere or whether it's just what someone thinks was stated on some hacked website?

[Fire Haired14]

Also, the language the Scythians spoke was East Iranic. That EAST Iranic language evolved around BMAC and NOT in Sintashta or something like that, that's a fact!


Don't claim something where you don't have any knowledge about!

I'm stating the fact Sycthians were descendants of Sintashta. We know this because we have Sycthian and Sintashta DNA. I never stated Sintashta were proto-Indo Iranians. I don't know whether they were. Since they belonged to a downstream clade of Z93, not found in South Asia, that suggests they weren't. It's possible proto-Indo Iranian lived west of Sintashta in Russia or West Asia.

You got to understand many people speak languages that most of their ancestors didn't. For example, Austrians speak a German language, but are mostly Polish and Balkan-like, not German-like. West Germans, South Dutch, and Swiss speak a German language, but are far more similar to French than to other Germans. English speak a German language, but are mostly of British Celtic-decent. All the major language families of Europe probably spread in the Bronze age or later, with maybe not much gene flow. There's endless examples of people who speak a differnt language than their ancestors did.

Indo Iranian languages are no exception. Sycthians and Persians are as differnt as two West Eurasian populations can be, but they spoke closely related languages. At somepoint Indo Iranian languages expanded with little gene flow. As much as you say you're not, it's pretty obvious you don't want the language to have expanded in your region with little gene flow. The langage Kurds speak doesn't define them.

[Fire Haired14]

Is R1a1a1d2a really under Z93 ???

On Anthrogenica someone user Parasar wrote:

The "d" is probably meant to be a "b". The nomenclatur for Z93 is, R1a1a1b2. So, I think it's pretty obvious this guy had Z93, and specifically Z94(R1a1a1b2a).

[Tomenable]

did anyone check whether this was actually published somewhere

It seems that this info comes from the team under prof. David Reich.

IIRC, it has not been published yet, because it is a brand new sample.

[Goga]

I'm stating the fact Sycthians were descendants of Sintashta. We know this because we have Sycthian and Sintashta DNA. I never stated Sintashta were proto-Indo Iranians. I don't know whether they were. Since they belonged to a downstream clade of Z93, not found in South Asia, that suggests they weren't. It's possible proto-Indo Iranian lived west of Sintashta in Russia or West Asia.

You got to understand many people speak languages that most of their ancestors didn't. For example, Austrians speak a German language, but are mostly Polish and Balkan-like, not German-like. West Germans, South Dutch, and Swiss speak a German language, but are far more similar to French than to other Germans. English speak a German language, but are mostly of British Celtic-decent. All the major language families of Europe probably spread in the Bronze age or later, with maybe not much gene flow. There's endless examples of people who speak a differnt language than their ancestors did.

Indo Iranian languages are no exception. Sycthians and Persians are as differnt as two West Eurasian populations can be, but they spoke closely related languages. At somepoint Indo Iranian languages expanded with little gene flow. As much as you say you're not, it's pretty obvious you don't want the language to have expanded in your region with little gene flow. The langage Kurds speak doesn't define them.

Scythians as people were very MIXED. They had Europoid, Caucasoid, Central Asian and even EAST Asiatic (Turkic/Mongoloid) DNA. Scythians were very diverse people, but the LANGUAGE they spoke came from BMAC. FACT!
Scythians were like Brazilians, a mixture of many races.

But the LANGUAGE the Scythians (Saka) Spoke was EAST Iranic. East Iranic language evolved around and is from BMAC. Has nothing to do with Sintashta. That's a FACT.

BMAC is on the Iranian Plateau.

Can you prove me wrong that EAST Iranic language is from BMAC?


Languages do define people. The language Kurds speak define them, because it's an UNIQUE language spoken by NOBODY else but the Kurds. No other race on this planet speaks Kurdish, than Kurds themselves. Kurdish language (WEST Iranic) is part of Kurdish history and Kurdish race.

[Tomenable]

Goga this thread is about a new R1a sample in Yamnaya culture.

Can you stick to the topic and stop spamming about Kurds ???

Please start a new thread to discuss these other things.

BMAC is on the Iranian Plateau.

Only as much as England is in Northern France...

[Goga]

Goga this thread is about a new R1a sample in Yamnaya culture.

Can you stick to the topic and stop spamming about Kurds ???

He started to talk about the Kurds.

I proved him wrong about his opinion about the Scythians. This is all what I did.


He was the one who started about the Scythians, not me.


Like I said: Scythians were like modern Brazilians, a mixture of many races (Europoid, Caucasoid, Mogoloid/Tukic etc). But their EAST Iranic language was from BMAC and NOT Sintashta! Am I lying? Prove me that I'm wrong. No, you can't. Because I'm telling only the facts and have no hidden agenda. This is how science works...

[Tomenable]

I'm not sure about which Scythians are we talking about ???

I have seen only autosomal DNA of an Iron Age (years 380-200 BC) Scythian from the Volga Region:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...-Autosomal-DNA

That Scythian was close e.g. to modern Pamiri / Pomiri Tajiks (as well as to some other populations).

But here we are talking about a sample from 3000 BC - ca. 2700 years older than that Scythian.

[Goga]

I'm not sure about which Scythians are we talking about ???

I have seen only autosomal DNA of Iron Age (years 380-200 BC) Scythian from the Volga Region:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...-Autosomal-DNA

That Scythian was very close e.g. to modern Pomiri Tajiks (as well as to several other populations).

But here we are talking about a sample from 3000 BC - ca. 2700 years older than that Scythian.

Fire Haired14 was talking about "historical Scythians who the Greeks knew in the Iron age". Read his first post.


Well, those 'Iron Age' Scythians spoke an East Iranic language from BMAC and NOT from Sintashta. But I'm sure they were already mixed as much as modern day Brazilians..

[Fire Haired14]

I'm not sure about which Scythians are we talking about ???

I have seen only autosomal DNA of Iron Age (years 380-200 BC) Scythian from the Volga Region:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...-Autosomal-DNA

That Scythian was very close e.g. to modern Pomiri Tajiks (as well as to several other populations).

But here we are talking about a sample from 3000 BC - ca. 2700 years older than that Scythian.

The Sycthian was 90% Andronovo+10% Siberian. He has about twice as much Steppe than any modern Europeans, but more similar to Europeans than to anyone in Asia. He has genealogical connections with Siberian and Central Asians, but his overall makeup is the same as Andronovo(minus some Siberian).

Sorry, I should have said Andronovo all along. Our Sintashta genomes are differnt. They were almost 50% Middle Neolithic European, while Andronovo and Timber Grave and Potapovaka(all R1a-Z93) were only about 20% Middle Neolithic European.

[Tomenable]

Well, those 'Iron Age' Scythians spoke an East Iranic language from BMAC and NOT Sintashta. But I'm sure they were already mixed like as much as modern day Brazilians.

We have Scythian art with quite realistic representations / depictions of Scythian look - for example:







We also have reconstructions by Russian anthropologists, which do indeed resemble those sculptures.

[Goga]

Sorry, I should have said Andronovo all along. Our Sintashta genomes are differnt. They were almost 50% Middle Neolithic European, while Andronovo and Timber Grave and Potapovaka(all R1a-Z93) were only about 20% Middle Neolithic European.

The EAST Iranic Scythian language is neither from Andronovo, lol. Once again tthe EAST Iranic language evolved around BMAC on the Iranian Plateau.


The language is from BMAC, while it can be picked and spoken by different people who NOT invented that language! Andronovo or Sintashta folks NEVER invented Scythian EAST Iranic language, because it was from BMAC. BMAC folks invented/gave birth to the Scythian (EAST Iranic) language.

Scythians in Central Asia could be like Brazilians who speak Portuguese. But Portuguese is from Europe and not from Brazil. Same can be said about the Scythian language, it was from the Iranian Plateau (BMAC) and NOT from the Steppes. Those Scythians in the Steppes could be just 'Iranized'..

[Goga]

We have Scythian art with quite realistic representations / depictions of Scythian look - for example:


We also have reconstructions by Russian anthropologists, which do indeed resemble those sculptures.

Very beautifull ART! They were brave soldiers/pupils of their Aryan masters/teachers from BMAC.

But that doesn't change the fact that the EAST Iranic language the Scythians spoke came from BMAC! Those Scythians from the Steppes were 'Iranized' by people from BMAC, Iranian Plateau. They were like Brazilians from Portugal.


" Eastern Iranian is thought to have separated from Western Iranian in the course of the later 2nd millennium BC, and was possibly located at the Yaz culture. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Iranian_languages

[Tomenable]

Do you think that all of Indo-European languages evolved in the Iranian Plateau before spreading to other regions?

You claimed that PIE evolved in the Iranian Plateau, then that Proto-Indo-Iranian did, and now that Scythian also did.

[Goga]

Do you think that all of Indo-European languages evolved in the Iranian Plateau before spreading somewhere else?

Not all.

Some later Proto-Indo-European languages evolved around Yamnaya Horizon before they migrated into the European heartland. I'm talking about proto-Italic, proto-Celtic, proto-Germanic, proto-Balto-Slavic. All those languages came from Yamnaya. But Maykop folks or maybe other folks from the Iranian Plateau (Leyla-Tepe ?) brought the early PIE into Yamnaya at the first place.


Languages like Tocharian, Anatolian (Hittite), Graeco-Armenian, proto-Iranic were all native to the West Asia. Sanscrit had West Asian roots too, but evolved into Vedic (Indic) in SouthCentral Asia.

You claimed that PIE evolved in the Iranian Plateau, then that Proto-Indo-Iranian did, and now that Scythian also did.

I claim nothing.

I'm just giving the facts. And the FACT is that the EAST Iranic language spoken by Scythians came from BMAC and NOT from Andronovo and neither Sintashta.

[Tomenable]

So you say that Scythians could originally speak Balto-Slavic and later became Iranized ???

Languages like Tocharian, Anatolian (Hittite), Graeco-Armenian, proto-Iranic were all native to the West Asia.

Tocharian was spoken in East Asia - in Xinjiang province of China - not in West Asia.

Armenian AFAIK evolved in the Balkans and moved from there to Asia Minor.

Greek is native to the Balkans, not to West Asia - it evolved in Greece.

[Goga]

So you say that Scythians could originally speak Balto-Slavic and later became Iranized ???



Tocharian was spoken in East Asia - in Xinjiang province of China - not in West Asia.

Armenian AFAIK evolved in the Balkans and moved from there to Asia Minor.

Greek is native to the Balkans, not to West Asia - it evolved in Greece.

Scythians were mixed with different kind of races. Some Steppes people related to ancient Balto-Slavic folks mixed with Yamnaya and far East Asian (Turkic/Mongoloid) folks, later they were influenced by the EAST Iranic tribes from BMAC. So, yes. Most native folks who lived in the Steppes, were simply linguistically 'Iranized' by EAST Iranic speaking folks from BMAC.


EAST Iranian language spoken by the so called Scythians was from BMAC and NOT from the Steppes..

" Eastern Iranian is thought to have separated from Western Iranian in the course of the later 2nd millennium BC, and was possibly located at the Yaz culture. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Iranian_languages


No, there're ancient links between Graeco-Armenian and proto-Iranic, so called Graeco-Aryan connection. Proto-Iranic can't be from the Balkans, that's why Graeco-Armenian has to be West-Asian. Graeco-Armenian, Tocharian, Anatolian (Luwian, Hittite etc) and proto-Iranic were all related to each other.

[Goga]

Think of Brazil and Portugal. In both countries Portuguese is spoken. But Portugues is from Portugal.

And now EAST Iranic language spoken in the Steppes by so called Scythians AND spoken by Khwarezm, Bactrians, Kambojas, Sogdians etc. around BMAC.


EAST Iranic language evolved in BMAC. So that makes EAST Iranic language NATIVE to BMAC, like Portugues is native to Portugal.


Brazilians = Scythians in the Steppes; 'Iranized' East Iranians.
Portuguese = Khwarezm, Bactrians, Kambojas, Sogdians around BMAC; the REAL native East Iranians.

[A. Papadimitriou]

Fire Haired14 was talking about "historical Scythians who the Greeks knew in the Iron age". Read his first post.

Those Scythians, according to Aristotle, had considerably lighter skin than the Greeks (who in turn were considerably lighter than Ethiopians and Egyptians). I don't know if that means something. Probably most would expect it. But I mentioned it because you said they were mixed. Maybe. I don't know, but they may have looked like modern Eastern Europeans to some extent.