Crime Terrorist attacks inside Brussels airport and metro

Belgian authorities believe they've arrested the 3rd bomber on Brussels airport

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/36484/Aans...cial&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1458972681

he resembles the man seen on camera in the airport
he wouldn't have been able to detonate his bomb as he was blown away by the explosion of the other bombs
but he escaped

the man arrested now calls himself a 'freelance reporter'
during his 'reports' he becomes angry in front of the camera because of 'injustice done to Muslims in Belgian prisons'
 
^all well said... My interpretation of the Crusades is very critical of Europe... Seems unrealistic to believe anything other than that those were dark violent times that had little to do with what Christianity (New Testament) teaches... Anyway, I do see your point about picking and choosing (people here do that all the time... using the old testament to condemn gays while eating their pork and shellfish while wearing their cotton polyester blends, and planting more than one crop in the same field, etc...Thanks Leviticus!). I agree that Christianity was still similarly trouble not all that long ago, and we have still some pretty weird Fundamentalists remaining, lol... Google "Holy Ghost People" (i.e. http://www.jstor.org/stable/40931991?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents).

One thing I find curious is that seemingly preexisting Arab culture "hijacked" (no pun intended) some of the teachings of Islam, just as Paganism influenced Christianity in Europe... What I mean is, it seems in early Islam, as they conquered Northern Africa etc, they practiced a great amount of religious tolerance to hold the large empires together (similar to the Persians, Alexander the Great , etc...), and persecuted people much less that Christianity did, esp. later when it was stronger and divided (Inquisition, etc...)... Islam proposed equality for women too, but local culture again derailed that (in my eyes)... So maybe we need to be careful not to blame some cultural faults on a doctrine that they don't necessarily follow to a tee?

Doesn't even the New Testament have it's share of violence passages and dogmatic statements?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_violence#Descriptions_of_violence_2


I will give this a listen when I get home... http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788 (of course here in the US NPR may be considering liberal quackery, but relative to Europe it's much more center of the road...).

Thanks for the conversation!

ADDENDUM: CAN I CHANGE MY SETTINGS SO THAT I AM NOT SIGNED OUT SO QUICKLY??? I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ AND RESPOND TO POSTS BEFORE IT BOOTS ME, LOL... GUESS I AM SUPPOSED TO READ AND TYPE FASTER!!! :)

Explain, why is Erdogan so popular amongst Turkish Muslims when he tells them fairy tales about good old Ottomans and Muslim supremacy, like Muslims that discovered America first.
Why is it so easy to hijack Islam for such fascist ideas?
 
^all well said... My interpretation of the Crusades is very critical of Europe... Seems unrealistic to believe anything other than that those were dark violent times that had little to do with what Christianity (New Testament) teaches... Anyway, I do see your point about picking and choosing (people here do that all the time... using the old testament to condemn gays while eating their pork and shellfish while wearing their cotton polyester blends, and planting more than one crop in the same field, etc...Thanks Leviticus!). I agree that Christianity was still similarly trouble not all that long ago, and we have still some pretty weird Fundamentalists remaining, lol... Google "Holy Ghost People" (i.e. http://www.jstor.org/stable/40931991?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents).

I am very much aware of the hypocrisy with these people, and I am a homosexual so I do understand these kind of persecutation, BUT yet again their is a very important difference you are missing out on. Radical Christians (such as evangelists I presume) and some others embark on verbal persecutions and never incited killing for any kind of what they perceive as a sin. In the Quran you have these horrible and Nazi like doctrine:-


Abu Dawud


Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy,
he will be stoned to death.
Abu Dawud 38:4448


These are texts written at least 600 years after Jesus. You do not find any of these texts in the new testament. So there is a big difference. Again we always come to the same issue. As a non religious person I find the Islamic texts much more offensive to instruct someone for their life to be terminated in the name of a god. Such actions are inspired in the Quran by the Jewish Torah (The old testament)

Lev. 20:13


  • "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them," (NASB).
  • "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them," (ESV).
Again here there is a very important difference as I have explained before:- The new testament superceeds the old testament and Christianity makes a clear distinction that it has made a new covenant with god. That means alot of fundamental differences, including eating pork, marrying one women, end of killing (stoning) in the name of god for non believers and so much more. Mohamed has revived all this. The Quran mentions Jesus as one of the great prophets but NONE of his teachings are there. Of course they cannot as they would be in TOTAL contradiction with the new revived Mosaic Law. Please note I am discussing things from a historical prospective and not a religious one, as personally I find Religion a total waste of time and rather then mystical I find it to be much more politcal.

One thing I find curious is that seemingly preexisting Arab culture "hijacked" (no pun intended) some of the teachings of Islam, just as Paganism influenced Christianity in Europe... What I mean is, it seems in early Islam, as they conquered Northern Africa etc, they practiced a great amount of religious tolerance to hold the large empires together (similar to the Persians, Alexander the Great , etc...), and persecuted people much less that Christianity did, esp. later when it was stronger and divided (Inquisition, etc...)...

Again we come to the choose your pick to justify anything desired at the time. There was a time when Islam was more tolerant then Christianity but that also has to be seen in a geographical context and in which time frame. There were different factions who gave different interpretation to their religion. We still have that today in 2016. But one generally speaking even though a minority Islam produced the most radical religious motivated groups, that use terror on a global scale to promote their believes. This happens on a much much bigger scale then any other 'Religion world wide'. I dont think I need to prove my point, its a well established fact. This of course does not mean that all Muslims are like that like some individuls are so ready to state. I do not believe that this will always be the case but it will take a long time for things to level out.


Islam proposed equality for women too, but local culture again derailed that (in my eyes)... So maybe we need to be careful not to blame some cultural faults on a doctrine that they don't necessarily follow to a tee?

Im not sure if its just cultural because again the Quran like the Torah (old testament) and sometimes in the New testament too (but not in Jesus teachings. It was Mary magdeline who saw him first risen the writings say) always projected women as inferior to men and all the mathematics lead that women are worth half of men. Even in Sharia law example women inherit half of what men do. So In Islam we still see a situation were they are quite eager to follow to a tee (so to speak). Both Christians and Jews have managed to rise above that, even though somehow they seem to go against their own scriptures. Maybe separating Church (Religion) from state was a good beginning. Something that does not happen very much in Islamic communities.


Doesn't even the New Testament have it's share of violence passages and dogmatic statements?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_violence#Descriptions_of_violence_2


I will give this a listen when I get home... http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788 (of course here in the US NPR may be considering liberal quackery, but relative to Europe it's much more center of the road...).

As i have said before to make it simple and straight to the point the New testament clearly does not incite violence or killings to other human beings. The Quran has direct references to kill people if they are perceived to be seen as satanic. This is a big big difference.

Thanks for the conversation!

you are most welcome

ADDENDUM: CAN I CHANGE MY SETTINGS SO THAT I AM NOT SIGNED OUT SO QUICKLY??? I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ AND RESPOND TO POSTS BEFORE IT BOOTS ME, LOL... GUESS I AM SUPPOSED TO READ AND TYPE FASTER!!! :)

Same thing happens to me if its a rather long post. What I do I copy all text just in case it boots me out and loose what i have written. Sometimes what you write is not lost, but it dosent always happen so better to copy before to just paste it after :). I think it works better if you click on Go Advanced before posting.

PS. Please excuse bold type as I could not fix in any way :)
 
Explain, why is Erdogan so popular amongst Turkish Muslims when he tells them fairy tales about good old Ottomans and Muslim supremacy, like Muslims that discovered America first.
Why is it so easy to hijack Islam for such fascist ideas?

Just all told, reputation.

In the Middle ages Balkan countries have been developed as countries in Central Europe, Britain or Scandinavia. But unfortunately these countries have not had lack and for centuries they have been occupied by Ottoman Empire.

Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia have been longest under Ottoman rule and they have been hardly liberated during the 19th and in early 20th century.

Today Turkish leadership does not hide that their country has neo Ottoman ambitions and this causes concern among the peoples in Balkans (Christians and Atheists). But Erdogan is counting on the support of people in Islamic areas of the Balkans who were Ottoman allies in the time of Ottoman Empire.

I hope that neo Ottoman ambitions are short lived and that European integrations will whole Balkans move toward progress.
 
Just read the following this morning:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/world/europe/brussels-attacks-police.html?_r=0

Between what is highlighted in the article and reports about laws saying you can't raid private homes at night, it's a wonder there haven't been more large scale attacks.

Obviously, I'm not clued in to how things work in some European countries. Why, precisely, were the two resignations not accepted? The one official, Green, deserves to get sacked for trying to weasel out of responsibility, if for no other reasons. The only statement that is adequate in these circumstances is, "I accept full responsibility". Who does he think is responsible for the lack of training, sense of urgency, etc. of the people under his command? Like I said, "Weasel".

@Maleth,
I don't have much personal experience with North Africans, but my father spent almost five years in Algeria, Libya, Tunisia and Morocco. He had nothing but good things to say about them on a personal level, especially the Libyans and Tunisians. However, he did say a lot of them were religion mad. Any ideology, whether religious or political, or both in the present case can so brainwash people with certain personality traits that they lose any critical judgment and eventually their very humanity. I don't see how this is any different from what the Nazis or Stalinists or what some people in the Balkans did.

It seems to me that what is going on is that a good number of the young men going to Syria and then returning to commit these acts are criminals, with all that says about their alienation, lack of internalization of social mores, etc. They are ripe for indoctrination into a violent cult, and they're already pretty far along in terms of contacts, weapons use etc. It's not a good scenario.
 
^doesn't sound good!

Explain, why is Erdogan so popular amongst Turkish Muslims when he tells them fairy tales about good old Ottomans and Muslim supremacy, like Muslims that discovered America first.
Why is it so easy to hijack Islam for such fascist ideas?

I am not qualified to answer this (Garrick's answer sounds good to me! But I am curious to research some)... You guys are obviously more aware of the current political landscape on your side of the pond... I feel like I have helped steer the conversation away from the topic, but it's still related and you guys seem tolerant of an evolving conversation. (y)

1) Radical Christians (such as evangelists I presume) and some others embark on verbal persecutions and never incited killing for any kind of what they perceive as a sin. In the Quran you have these horrible and Nazi like doctrine:-
...

These are texts written at least 600 years after Jesus. 2)You do not find any of these texts in the new testament. So there is a big difference. Again we always come to the same issue. As a non religious person I find the Islamic texts much more offensive to instruct someone for their life to be terminated in the name of a god. Such actions are inspired in the Quran by the Jewish Torah (The old testament)

Lev. 20:13


  • "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them," (NASB).
  • "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them," (ESV).
Again here there is a very important difference as I have explained before:- The new testament superceeds the old testament and Christianity makes a clear distinction that it has made a new covenant with god. That means alot of fundamental differences, including eating pork, marrying one women, end of killing (stoning) in the name of god for non believers and so much more. Mohamed has revived all this. The Quran mentions Jesus as one of the great prophets but NONE of his teachings are there. Of course they cannot as they would be in TOTAL contradiction with the new revived Mosaic Law. Please note I am discussing things from a historical prospective and not a religious one, as personally 3)I find Religion a total waste of time and rather then mystical I find it to be much more politcal.

Again we come to the choose your pick to justify anything desired at the time. There was a time when Islam was more tolerant then Christianity but that also has to be seen in a geographical context and in which time frame. There were different factions who gave different interpretation to their religion. We still have that today in 2016. But one generally speaking 4)even though a minority Islam produced the most radical religious motivated groups, that use terror on a global scale to promote their believes. This happens on a much much bigger scale then any other 'Religion world wide'. I dont think I need to prove my point, its a well established fact. 5)This of course does not mean that all Muslims are like that like some individuls are so ready to state. I do not believe that this will always be the case but it will take a long time for things to level out.

Im not sure if its just cultural because again the Quran like the Torah (old testament) and sometimes in the New testament too (but not in Jesus teachings. It was Mary magdeline who saw him first risen the writings say) always projected women as inferior to men and all the mathematics lead that women are worth half of men. 6)Even in Sharia law example women inherit half of what men do. So In Islam we still see a situation were they are quite eager to follow to a tee (so to speak). Both Christians and Jews have managed to rise above that, even though somehow they seem to go against their own scriptures. 7)Maybe separating Church (Religion) from state was a good beginning. Something that does not happen very much in Islamic communities.

As i have said before to make it simple and straight to the point the New testament clearly does not incite violence or killings to other human beings. The Quran has direct references to kill people if they are perceived to be seen as satanic. This is a big big difference.

you are most welcome

8)
Same thing happens to me if its a rather long post. What I do I copy all text just in case it boots me out and loose what i have written.
PS. Please excuse bold type as I could not fix in any way :)


my underlining/numbers above... I think we share a lot of views and values... I really value the input from those of you who are closer to this and know more about the nuances... Thanks as always for the feedback.

1) Fair enough, but as you pointed out before Christianity transformed pretty quickly, so maybe Islam will manage to do the same... I don't want to give up hope yet.

2) As is typical, I see your point; your examples from the Quran seem harsher, but I maintain that, although the New Testament was head and shoulders above the old, it was not exempt from suggesting violence towards non-believers or those who broke God's law... Just another reason I maintain hope!

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See
Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21) 7:9-10

Peter claims that Dt 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23

Hebrews: Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29

God saved Rahab because she believed. (He killed all the non-believers in Jericho.)
11:31

3) Again, at a personal level I agree completely... a complete misuse of spirituality if you ask me...

4) I can't argue with the statistics... Unless you count US foreign policy as a Christian force... then the death count goes to us...

5) Still can't argue...

6) Is this actually Quranic law, or just a practice that has developed since?

7) Certainly not going to argue with that... Could not agree more...

8) I do the same thing (copy and paste)... and I had the same problem with the bold yesterday, but when I edited it, it let me change it...
 
I can't tell whether this is correct or not, I don't know the details.
I can only say, the Belgian juridical power is very arrogant. It claims to know everything and does not allow criticism.
In their mind, that is how it should be.
I guess it is the same in other countries.

Total de asesinatos de ETA
según el estatus de las víctimas1
Estatus
Civiles343
Miembros de fuerzas armadas
o cuerpos policiales
486
De los cuales:
Guardia Civil203
Policía Nacional146
Fuerzas Armadas Españolas98
Policía local24
Ertzaintza13
Mozos de Escuadra1
Gendarmería Nacional1
Total
829 personas asesinadas

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Asesinatos_cometidos_por_ETA_desde_la_muerte_de_Francisco_Franco

829 people killed by the terrorist group E.T.A. in Spain.
 
1) Fair enough, but as you pointed out before Christianity transformed pretty quickly, so maybe Islam will manage to do the same... I don't want to give up hope yet.

I do believe that, as more and more people will share more and more information and knowledge, I believe it will be a process that cannot be stopped. The vast majority of Muslim people as I stated before are normal people who only want normal things out of life. But there are certain environments that can nurture a criminal behavior more then others. This does not relate only to Religion but other non religious terror organizations around the world. I dont think that anyone has had the magic formula of how these environments can be totally elimnated, but I am sure there are many factors that contribute to this kind of behavior.....including a genetic disposition that can be found in any society.

2) As is typical, I see your point; your examples from the Quran seem harsher, but I maintain that, although the New Testament was head and shoulders above the old, it was not exempt from suggesting violence towards non-believers or those who broke God's law... Just another reason I maintain hope!

As i mentioned before it (old testament) was quoted by popes during the crusades to guarantee a seat in heaven. Muslims have similar promises of rewards after death.

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See
Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

This is totally incorrect. In a historical and political scenario it is very obvious that Jesus was questioning the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. He was asking if you go so much by the book (to the tee) so why are you not killing the children who rebel against their parents as you are instructed to do according to the law. This to the contrary show how against Jesus was of such practices and not encouraging it.

The verse beneath confirms what I am stating.

John 8:44"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.45"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.…


Peter claims that D
t 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23

Please give link as i have made a search and could not find such texts. I am not aware that there is any such texts. Am I right to say you are referring to the old testament (Torah)? We already pointed out the differences. The New testament refers as punishment going to hell or being judged at the end of the world. It never incites killing while still on earth. Unlike the Quran does.




6) Is this actually Quranic law, or just a practice that has developed since?

Clearly stated in the Quran (also inspired from certain versus in the Jewish Torah)

Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).
 
Belgium and was a sanctuary for E.T.A members in the past

It was the first country to extradite ETA, but refused to do so between 1984 and 2005.

03/25/2016 - 05:00 H.
The attacks this week have highlighted the ease with which the jihadists have been operating in Belgium, especially in its capital. However, not only Islam, but violent organizations around the world have been present in this country, starting with ETA. Although Belgium was the first country to deport about ETA claimed by Spain in 1984 even before France-, the situation would soon change.
Brussels is one of the world capitals of arms trafficking, so many armed movements maintained representatives there, where also was relatively safe to make contact with like-minded organizations (ETA did, at least, with the IRA and mayflies Cells Communist Combat Belgian). The city was also considered the safest way to travel to training camps in South Yemen exit point, via Rome and Beirut, led by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), which were trained a dozen ETA members.




Read more: Bombings in Brussels: Belgium and was a sanctuary for ETA members in the past.

It is believed that Belgian banks were also used by the organization to receive transactions, such as $ 900,000 allegedly sent by Libya to ETA in 1985 through Bruxelles Lambert Bank. But above all, the militants benefited from the reluctance of a Belgian judiciary who refused to authorize the extradition to Spain of those ETA members arrested in Belgium. For example, in 1982 Juan José Arrese and Fernando Bilbao avoided 'in extremis' deportation after being arrested by Belgian police when a judge granted them a residence permit.

The following year, Joseba Artetxe 'Txistu' and Salvador Corral Ormazábal 'Yosu', were intercepted by Belgian agents when carrying a cargo of ammunition in a car. This time there was no doubt: both were sent to Spain (which would eventually acquitted by the High Court). But in retaliation, ETA placed a bomb-pm at the Palace of Justice in Antwerp, which caused no casualties.

Since that year no longer any extradition occur until 2005, when the Belgian Supreme Court granted Diego Ugarte Lopez de Arkaute and Jon Lopez Gomez, considered responsible for the murder of socialist Fernando Buesa and his bodyguard. To this followed, in 2010, Luis Maria Zengotitabengoa, accused of having rented a van loaded with explosives that the Civil Guard intercepted in Zamora and in 2011 the Ventura Tomé, a "historic" 80s But those intervening two decades previous, Belgium served as an "alternative base" for those who had problems of residence in France, a flow that accelerated after the government of François Mitterrand accept start collaborating with Felipe González on terrorism.

Accusations of torture
The most famous case was that of Raquel Garcia and Jose Luis Moreno, suspected collaborators of Vizcaya command. arrested in the town of Vilvoorde in 1993. Shortly thereafter, a Belgian judge took into consideration the allegations that incriminating statements against them, based on the testimony of ETA member Juan Ramon Rojo, had been achieved "through ill-treatment". Three years later, the Belgian government halted the extradition, and both were released.
The same happened in 1996 with the alleged ETA member Enrique Fagoagas, 'Peixotin', arrested on arrival in Belgium from Venezuela carrying a false passport. Although he was not granted political asylum, shortly after he was released and allowed to obtain a residence permit. The State Council also ordered in 1998 to suspend the expulsion of Ricardo Cruz Maiztegui to Mexico, authorized by the Belgian Government.

The tension between the different Belgian institutions for the presence of ETA members in the country is one of the reasons why achieving extradition from Belgium has been often much more complicated than from other European states. The judiciary seems especially sensitive to allegations of torture against the Spanish authorities, such as those made by lawyer Paul Bekaert: even as recently as 2011, this could prevent Natividad Jauregui, an alleged member of the Comando Vizcaya and suspicious of at least six attacks, who lived quietly until his arrest in Ghent, could be deported to Spain.

At that time, Bekaert claims that, after 32 years, had been the "reasonable time" in which it was reasonable to consider extradition. And less, he said, to our country, "a democracy except for Basque prisoners, tortured, special laws or incorrect prison policy concerns." The argument convinced the Ghent Court trying the case, which ruled in favor of ETA, ensuring that there were "grounds to suspect that Natividad Jáuregui could suffer a violation of their human rights in Spain".

In 2015, the program of Four "A New Time" could even locate Jauregui living in Ghent under the false name of Jaione, although the former ETA militant declined to speak with reporters. Cases like this, however, are the exception, and today Belgium can no longer be considered an 'alternative sanctuary' for ETA members, as it was once.

http://www.elconfidencial.com/mundo...tuario-para-los-etarras-en-el-pasado_1173928/

View attachment 7657
Natividad Jáuregui terrorist shot in the neck under a false Facebook account unpunished enjoying a seafood platter in Gante.
 
@Maleth,
I don't have much personal experience with North Africans, but my father spent almost five years in Algeria, Libya, Tunisia and Morocco. He had nothing but good things to say about them on a personal level, especially the Libyans and Tunisians. However, he did say a lot of them were religion mad. Any ideology, whether religious or political, or both in the present case can so brainwash people with certain personality traits that they lose any critical judgment and eventually their very humanity. I don't see how this is any different from what the Nazis or Stalinists or what some people in the Balkans did.

It seems to me that what is going on is that a good number of the young men going to Syria and then returning to commit these acts are criminals, with all that says about their alienation, lack of internalization of social mores, etc. They are ripe for indoctrination into a violent cult, and they're already pretty far along in terms of contacts, weapons use etc. It's not a good scenario.

I agree, very much my perception too. On the other hand however I feel we need to be careful not to demonize all Muslims as its so easy to do so at present. Very often its Muslims themselves who are suffering the most and they are the ones who are also fighting radicalism on many fronts. These were normal Muslim people just want to have some fun.... :(

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/25/middleeast/iraq-violence/
 
Just read the following this morning:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/world/europe/brussels-attacks-police.html?_r=0

Between what is highlighted in the article and reports about laws saying you can't raid private homes at night, it's a wonder there haven't been more large scale attacks.

Obviously, I'm not clued in to how things work in some European countries. Why, precisely, were the two resignations not accepted? The one official, Green, deserves to get sacked for trying to weasel out of responsibility, if for no other reasons. The only statement that is adequate in these circumstances is, "I accept full responsibility". Who does he think is responsible for the lack of training, sense of urgency, etc. of the people under his command? Like I said, "Weasel".

@Maleth,
I don't have much personal experience with North Africans, but my father spent almost five years in Algeria, Libya, Tunisia and Morocco. He had nothing but good things to say about them on a personal level, especially the Libyans and Tunisians. However, he did say a lot of them were religion mad. Any ideology, whether religious or political, or both in the present case can so brainwash people with certain personality traits that they lose any critical judgment and eventually their very humanity. I don't see how this is any different from what the Nazis or Stalinists or what some people in the Balkans did.

It seems to me that what is going on is that a good number of the young men going to Syria and then returning to commit these acts are criminals, with all that says about their alienation, lack of internalization of social mores, etc. They are ripe for indoctrination into a violent cult, and they're already pretty far along in terms of contacts, weapons use etc. It's not a good scenario.

I don't know what happened behind the scenes.
In Belgium it is very rare that a politician resigns out of his own initiative.
Normally it is when he does not get support from his own political party any more.
And that happens when something fishy appears to the public and the party then offers one of its minsiters in the hope the rest of the party is purified by that.
Jan Jambon would have first offered his resignation, maybe to force Koen Geens to do the same, both don't belong to the same party.

Anyway the discussion is not over yet. A parliamentary enquiry commision will investigate what went wrong, starting tuesday.
A lot more political profiling from opposition parties will start now.
In the mean time the police union expressed their anger against Jan Jambon because he would have pointed at a negligent officer.
Games and theater assured, but not very amusing.
 
I don't know what happened behind the scenes.
In Belgium it is very rare that a politician resigns out of his own initiative.
Normally it is when he does not get support from his own political party any more.
And that happens when something fishy appears to the public and the party then offers one of its minsiters in the hope the rest of the party is purified by that.
Jan Jambon would have first offered his resignation, maybe to force Koen Geens to do the same, both don't belong to the same party.

Anyway the discussion is not over yet. A parliamentary enquiry commision will investigate what went wrong, starting tuesday.
A lot more political profiling from opposition parties will start now.
In the mean time the police union expressed their anger against Jan Jambon because he would have pointed at a negligent officer.
Games and theater assured, but not very amusing.

No, it's not amusing at all. I'm more sorry than I can say that your country is going through this. I don't often speak of it, but 9/11 was a very traumatic time for me, not only as an adopted New Yorker, but on a personal level, as I lost a lot of friends that day. Even the ones who survived it were unalterably changed. The effects go on for years, for their families, friends, for the whole community.

Sometimes I wish I were still a praying person; maybe that would help.
 
Angela, you are indeed correct... It is so tragic, the number of deaths, and collateral deaths (including emergency personnel, who were irreparably harmed by the toxic dust and gas after the collapses and have died since) caused by those attacks... I still believe US foreign policy could have done much to avoid the attack, but that doesn't make me any less sorry for all the innocent lives that were lost and irreparably harmed... I want to understand why it happened (beyond typical rhetoric) so that we actually stand a chance of preventing such events... As Maleth (or someone) stated earlier having a conversation with people is a good place to start... but if you bomb their homeland first they might not approach the conversation with open ears...

My father was born in the county where the 4th plane crashed (in rural SW Pennsylvania) after it was hijacked from the hijackers... I was grateful for their prevention of further intended destruction. I wish your friend could have been spared by similar actions, but I know that is no kind of solace...


1)"Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."

This is totally incorrect. In a historical and political scenario it is very obvious that Jesus was questioning the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. He was asking if you go so much by the book (to the tee) so why are you not killing the children who rebel against their parents as you are instructed to do according to the law. This to the contrary show how against Jesus was of such practices and not encouraging it.

The verse beneath confirms what I am stating.

John 8:44"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.45"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.…



2)Please give link as i have made a search and could not find such texts. I am not aware that there is any such texts. Am I right to say you are referring to the old testament (Torah)? We already pointed out the differences. The New testament refers as punishment going to hell or being judged at the end of the world. It never incites killing while still on earth. Unlike the Quran does.


3)Clearly stated in the Quran (also inspired from certain versus in the Jewish Torah)

Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).


1) Upon rereading that quote I am embarrassed that, in quick skimming, the meaning totally evaded me... in my native tongue no less... scratch that "example" for sure! :ashamed2:

2) I'm no Biblical Scholar, but I got those passages from a site that claims to be New Testament allusions or references of violence (link I posted before: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html), some of which were based in the Old Testament, but reiterated by Jesus or his followers... The one you specifically asked about is from Acts 3:23 "And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+3:23&version=ESV (this site gives cross references to the Old Testament inspiration, http://biblehub.com/acts/3-23.htm)

Anyway, I'm basically just playing the Devil's Advocate at this point... Seeing as my original statement was that the New Testament was about egalitarian peace loving hippies, even if I was right, I sabotaged my own point... In trying to present the Quran as peaceful, I have actually managed to bring the New Testament into question instead... I clearly don't know enough about any religious scripture to keep espousing a point of view... especially if I am incapable of reading and interpreting the scripture accurately... Had I had carefully read the previous passage we discussed, I never should have missed Jesus' intended meaning... And, if I can't be careful, I should be wary of chiming in on a forum of informed intelligent people... :ashamed2:

3) I probably could have googled that, but why pass up an opportunity for you to prove me wrong again... publicly? :grin:
Back to the "picking and choosing" to support a given purpose, here is what I was referring to in terms of male/female equality:
http://www.masjidtucson.org/submission/perspectives/women/equality.html (discusses the idea I suggested about preexisting culture being the main basis for the subjugation of women...)
http://www.mwlusa.org/topics/equality/gender.html
I won't bother to include any specific passages in my post, as you may just prove me wrong again and I will continue to become increasingly confused, haha.

I agree, very much my perception too. On the other hand however I feel we need to be careful not to demonize all Muslims as its so easy to do so at present. Very often its Muslims themselves who are suffering the most and they are the ones who are also fighting radicalism on many fronts. These were normal Muslim people just want to have some fun.... :(

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/25/middleeast/iraq-violence/

Well said... Muslims are, by far, the most numerous victims of extremist Islam... I wish that majority, of well adjusted peaceful followers, could or would overwhelm the extremists, and bring this era of extremism to a close... I sometimes wonder how this has not already occurred, but I yield to you guys to explain how that has not already become a viable option...?

edit: I am under the impression Shi'a Muslims are typically less violent than Sunni counterparts... Am I mistaken in that?
"Shi'a communities preach on Islamic unity as well as inter-faith dialogue despite being persecuted historically.(See Persecution of Shia Muslims) As of September 2014, mainly Shi'a activists continue to lead peaceful protests throughout Bahrain demanding the overthrow of the royal family (whom they accuse of practising Apartheid against the Shi'a majority) and in place implementation of a democracy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifism_in_Islam
 
No, it's not amusing at all. I'm more sorry than I can say that your country is going through this. I don't often speak of it, but 9/11 was a very traumatic time for me, not only as an adopted New Yorker, but on a personal level, as I lost a lot of friends that day. Even the ones who survived it were unalterably changed. The effects go on for years, for their families, friends, for the whole community.

Sometimes I wish I were still a praying person; maybe that would help.

none of my family or friends was affected
compared to 9/11 it was a small scale attack
after the Paris attack everybody expected something like this to happen
still, it's a wake up call
and we expect more to come

I heared today there has been an attack on Mosul university I don't know when, sometime ago.
200 students were killed by ISIS
It even didn't get the news here at the time

what happened in Brussels shouldn't have been a wake up call

I'm sure on 9/11 many people in Molenbeek were chearing while watching on TV in their rooms what had happened
After Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris early 2015 this was discussed in classes, many Muslim children said it was right to kill them, because they had insulted Islam. Some children who didn't agree were beaten up after class.
What more did Belgium need to wake up?
We've been instructed far to long, not to criticise and have respect for their 'culture'.

Thanks for your sympathy and concern.
But I've been angry myself for the stupidity and naivity that has reigned here for so long.
And it is not the fault of the present government, mentality was already changing.
It's the fault of the governments we've had (and was chosen) the last 4 decades.
Those governments ended up claiming everyone voting for the oposition were racist.
The Walloon socialsits who lost last elections and were out of the federal government since decades out of frustration accused some of the new ministers in parliament of racism and nazi sympathy.
 
^I understand your frustration, but hardline approaches may be counter productive (I was inclined to say "close-minded," but I prefer to assume you are not)... Explain a plan that will work, which assumes that integration is not possible... (without using conservative US rhetoric that involves turning the sand to glass...).

Linked from a story someone posted earlier, an example of a Muslim who also tragically died in the attack... Integration with radicals may not be possible; I grant you that, but I'd say those with the mentality expressed here certainly can:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/w...=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article

Salud!
 
^I understand your frustration, but hardline approaches may be counter productive (I was inclined to say "close-minded," but I prefer to assume you are not)... Explain a plan that will work, which assumes that integration is not possible... (without using conservative US rhetoric that involves turning the sand to glass...).

Linked from a story someone posted earlier, an example of a Muslim who also tragically died in the attack... Integration with radicals may not be possible; I grant you that, but I'd say those with the mentality expressed here certainly can:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/w...=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article

Salud!

The Walloon socialist mayor of Molenbeek Philippe Moureaux refused to use his own police force to fight criminality in Molenbeek, these people started to feel themselves above the law.
It was his voting public.
Most Belgian jihadi have a criminal record (for crimes commited outside of Molenbeek).

Jan Jambon proposed to send the federal police to search every house in Molenbeek, but Walloon socialists said it would be 'stigmatising'.
It appears actualy it is not possible because it would require enourmous manpower.

The main effort for integration should come from the Muslims themselves. If we don't demand their own effort for integration from them, funding will become a bottomless pit.
I can assure you there has been made a lot of government efforts for integration in these areas.
Better use the funds to detect and fight the criminals in these areas. That would be the right signal to give.

His proposal will look good in the press but I have the impression Schultz doesn't know what he's talking about.
 
^thanks bicicleur, I was not meaning to chime in on how funding is divided, just that having the attitude that integration is impossible is not helpful. I agree people have to choose to be integrated... Many "Germanic Americans" were neutral during the American Revolution because they had not yet assimilated even though they had been here, in some cases, for generations... Some people probably thought they would never assimilate, but here I am, writing in crude rudimentary English (self-depraving humor)... This is just one of hundreds of examples and I just don't think there is much hope if people adopt the attitude that we can't evolve as a society.

I appreciate the clarification on things I know very little about. Sante!?
 
the Muslim community in Belgium decided it was not appropriated to pray for the victims of the attack in the mosques last friday, 'because not all victims were Muslims'
'it is not appropriate to pray for non-believers'
nor did they find it appropriate to commemorate the victims with a minute of silence

http://www.lacapitale.be/1522136/ar...es-theologiens-refuse-de-reciter-une-priere-d

it shows how 'moderate' Muslims think and how connected Muslims in Belgium feel with their host country
 

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