Neanderthal Ydna

bicicleur said:
well, that is not what this study is about, but I agree with your first line,
but I can't imagine slavery among nomadic HG tribes, it would not be practical

but there was a frontier in SW Asia of 75000 years (125-50 ka) between Neanderthals and homo sapiens, and they didn't merge, I think that says enough
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The paper shows they could have merged but the end result would be the same.

Three assumptions.
1) Neanderthal were cold adapted
2) the earth warmed up gradually created a rolling series of warmer latitude bands over time from the south to the north
3) the AMH coming from the warmer south always had larger numbers along the border

Then if
- Neanderthal and AMH females randomly troupe swapped along the border like chimps
- the population ratio each time was say 2:1
then the Neanderthal along the border would become 50% AMH in the first wave while the AMH along the border would only become 25% Neanderthal - repeated over time I think it stabilizes somewhere around both being c. 75% AMH just due to larger AMH starting population.

So if both populations select against the minority component (except for the most beneficial genes) then they'd both end up with the same final percentage.

Repeat for each latitude band as warming continues.

The only differences would be the *last* populations to go through the process might still have a higher percentage of Neanderthal DNA or more recently (less anciently) had a larger percentage.
 
LeBrok said:
Cool find. They were going 360 meters with fire, and dragged tons of wood to maintain fire, to play with stalactites. Dudes with fantazy, a human nature, lol. I bet many died of CO poisoning, unless there is a draft in this cave.
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neanderthal d&d group
 
Maciamo said:
Very interesting, but I have serious doubts about antigens eliciting a maternal immune response during gestation. Half a million year of divergent evolution is not enough to bring to related sub-species to the limit of biological compatibility. The evidence for that is that lions and tigers can procreate and give birth to both male and female fertile offspring (tigons or ligers, depending if the father is a tiger or a lion), even though their common ancestors lived 3.5 million years ago. The same is true for dogs, wolves, coyotes, jackals and perhaps also foxes (see canine hybrids, e.g. the coywolf), and canidae branched off from one another even longer ago, approximately 12 million years ago (7.5 million if we exclude foxes).
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Tiger-lion hybrids suffer fertility issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigon#Fertility
 
I know this thread is a bit old, but it seems like a good place for this curiosity:

reddit.com/r/genetics/comments/2gt9d2/denisova_cave_neanderthal_was_ydna_haplogroup_r/

Anyone care to repeat his finding and comment?
 
The first attempt to find out if we had interbreed with Neanderthals was directed to the mitochondrial dna because it is usually the one that passes most easily from the replaced population to the successor population and none were found. I don't know if they already found it. Homo sapiens should find Neanderthal women, grotesque nightmare characters, Neanderthals should find all homo sapiens homosexuals couturiers and treacherous in the perverse intelligence of their traps, and adore the femina sapiens (women) beautifully decorated and sensual in their tropical dances.
 
Unlike neanderthal mtDNA in humans, human mtDNA in neanderthal was easy to find. Although people like to fantasize about these things, Neanderthals could easily kidnap human women, for example when they drove away from camp for food, and have a big party with them and their daughters. In a few generations Neanderthal mitochondria disappeared from their pack. A few more kidnappings, and the pack gradually became anatomically indistinguishable from a homo sapiens band just continuing under the orders of the Neanderthal boss chromosome (y chromosome). The elements of these flocks easily integrated into the pure homosapiens flocks giving rise to such approximately 2% Neanderthals who came to us and thus the Neanderthals would have been defeated by love and not by war.
 
An interesting thing about interbreeding with Neanderthals is, though, that mostly we didn't. Even in places where we overlapped with them for thousands of years. We clearly did have several successful successful matings with Neanderthals over a period of time, perhaps thousands of years. But all those snippets of Neanderthal DNA in our genome come from a single line of Neanderthals that separated from the rest of them about 70 000 years ago. The rest of them didn't pass on any DNA, even the gracile Croatian ones with their wide-ranging mating networks.

This is very different from how human-human interactions normally go. When we look at even very old DNA we find it made up of the genes of many previous groups. Total replacement is very rare.

To me at least, this indicates some kind of biological barrier to hybridization. Lack of male-specific DNA is a bit of circumstantial evidence for that as well. Haldanes rule etc.

Its outside my expertise, but I don't think there are firm rules on how many generations it takes to build barriers to reproduction. I would speculate that changes in diet, sustenance patterns, climate etc along with random chance all contribute to the accumulation of factors that can be barriers to reproduction. If there was some biochemical issue that was recently evolved it could be that one tribe of Neanderthals didn't have it fixated in the population yet.
 
Gnarl said:
An interesting thing about interbreeding with Neanderthals is, though, that mostly we didn't. Even in places where we overlapped with them for thousands of years.
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While the two groups did overlap for a long time in some areas, we have to consider the possibility that there were matings that not produced successful offspring who just don't happen to be ancestors. In that case the issue would not be inter-group incompatibility, but the failure of the sapiens group to re-enter the broader sapiens pool. If I remember correctly, the very first Europeans, who are the ones who interacted with Neanderthals for thousands of years, only left a tiny genetic imprint on the subsequent European populations.
 
Contribution to explaining that we inherited only the Neanderthal genetics absorbed by the homo sapiens flocks that crossed the Sinai Desert approximately 60 000 years ago: Although Europe is neighboring Africa, homo sapiens only began to penetrate it 25 000 years after reaching the other side of the planet (Austalia and western Pacific), certainly due to the resistance of the Neanderthals. We had been in Morocco for over 300,000 years and more than 270,000 years later had not yet dislodged the Neanderthals of Gibraltar, the same thing in the near east, we started to move forward and back there, more than 100,000 years ago but we also just came in eastern Europe approximately 35 000 years ago and perhaps from the northern steppe/tundra. There yes, we had a decisive advantage. Neanderthals would at most drill holes in skins where animal tendons were crudely passed, for their sporadic steppe/tundra expeditions in the few weeks of the Arctic summer, while we explored deeply their huge mammoth herds, and other herbivores, thanks to our clothes hermetically sewn with the eyed needle that protected us from the cold. For these pioneer sapiens flocks, coming from the steppe/tundra rather than populating, the priority would be to know the territories: By the amount of migrating birds measure the size of the territories from which they come, by the flow of the rivers at the mouth the size of their watershed ... .They must have lived closely together, even having children in common, with the Neanderthals to extract the millenary information they have accumulated about Europe, otherwise impossible to obtain: Location of - silex, obsidian, and other stones to make tools; rock salt and other useful minerals; gold nuggets to hang around the neck; animal cliffs, big game and migratory birds passages, river rapids and other fishing grounds; edible, medicinal and useful plants; water points in dry areas; caves... and in the end magical places and who are their spiritual entities. I see them crouching around the fire, in great complicity, the Neanderthals with the trapeze of their shoulders almost higher than their heads. When the terrain recognition phase was over the settler phase begun (the gravetense and their statuettes of large women or goddesses) which will extreminate earlier pioneer populations because they have accumulated obvious Neanderthal characteristics. As southern sapiens never had high hopes of progressing on the ground, they did not mix with Neanderthals, as there was no point in extracting information ,and so, the little genetics we received would be that of southern sapiens.
 
This process of gathering information was certainly accelerated with the help of some crazy mushrooms, such as those brought from the tundra still today, or further south with other plants used to get enebriated before widespread use of wine and distilled beverages (mandragora, henbane, ephedra, cannabis, white poppy ...). So we mixed our dances and songs (epics, odes, hymns, litanies ...), our legends and beliefs would be more difficult, but mixing the configuration of our constellations was simple .... Of course I doesn't included the most obvious information such as the location of mountains, plains, rivers and lakes, the seas and their shells, but also harmful winds such as sirocco, rocky recesses ... All of this a bit like the process of early colonization of North America (Daniel boone, Davy Crockett ...), which gave rise to the isolated groups of melangeons and diffuse Indian DNA in the populations on the east coast, which did not occur in the post-pioneer settlement. In the previous post where I wrote silex I should have written flint and instead of large women statuettes I meant overly procreative women statuettes.
 
Gnarl said:
An interesting thing about interbreeding with Neanderthals is, though, that mostly we didn't.

Its outside my expertise, but I don't think there are firm rules on how many generations it takes to build barriers to reproduction. I would speculate that changes in diet, sustenance patterns, climate etc along with random chance all contribute to the accumulation of factors that can be barriers to reproduction. If there was some biochemical issue that was recently evolved it could be that one tribe of Neanderthals didn't have it fixated in the population yet.
Click to expand...

I've recently come across a paper that has an interesting and plausible-sounding explanation for why we have DNA in us from only one line of Neanderthals.
"Disease transmission and introgression can explain the long-lasting contact zone of modern humans and Neanderthals" :

From the paper:

Once the interaction front was destabilized, presumably around 45–50 kya, other processes, previously overshadowed by disease burden, would then have been responsible for the replacement of Neanderthals by Moderns, although it has been suggested that disease transmission dynamics could also have played a prominent role in the replacement process. Our model supports this possibility. Conditions relating to disease dynamics need not have been symmetric between Moderns and Neanderthals—for example, the Moderns’ tropical pathogen package may have been more burdensome to the Neanderthals than the Neanderthals’ temperate pathogen package was to Moderns, following the pattern of decreasing pathogen burden with latitude. Hence, Moderns may have overcome the disease burden from contact sooner than Neanderthals. This asymmetry would have eventually allowed bands of Moderns to migrate into the Neanderthal regions unhindered by novel transmissible diseases, while carrying contagious diseases to which the Neanderthals were not yet immune. Moreover, after the historical front of interaction was crossed and migration reached deeper into Eurasia, this relative Modern advantage would have increased further, as Neanderthal bands encountered far from the initial contact zone would have been intolerant to the entirety of the novel pathogen package spread by the Moderns.
Click to expand...
 
I am still suggesting that all Neanderthal males were likely killed over thousands of years. They lived in small groups, around 30 each. If there were 30,000 of them alive at one point, that would mean having around 1,000 villages spread all over Europe. This means those small groups were isolated. What were the numbers of Homo sapiens entering Europe? Were they mostly males? Were they in large groups?
I have a tough time imagining that if there were large numbers of males, the encounters with Neanderthals were friendly.
They likely killed the males and mated with the females.
 
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