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I received my GENO 2 NEXT GENERATION results today:
YDNA: RA1-M448
MTDNA: L2A1C
I have 0,30% Neanderthal dna
my Regional Ancestry:
-Western and Central Africa 37%
-Eastern Africa 22%
-Arabia 19%
- Northern Africa 14%
-Southern europe 5%
-Jewish Diaspora 4%
Welcome
Your yDNA(if m448 and not downstream) is rare, especially for an individual of mixed, mostly African ancestry.
I am surprised that I have 04% jewish diaspora because, as far as I know, I do not have Jewish ancestors also my family finder and my autosomal results from britainsdna don't show any jewish diaspora percentage.
I just took a look at the new reference populations. Many, many groups have 2-6% "Jewish Diaspora". I'm unsure if it's real.Originally Posted by citizen of the world
Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci
UK:2%
Tuscany: 2%
Greece: 2%
France: 3%
Czech: 4%
Iberia: 5%
Romania: 5%
Russia:5%
Germany: 5%
Poland: 6%
At first I thought it might just be connected to Neolithic farmers or later movements from the Near East, and for some reason was being separated out, but then why are the numbers higher in countries which had large Ashkenazi populations and lower in southern European countries with more of that kind of ancestry? We also know from IBD analysis that there was gene flow between Eastern Europeans and the Ashkenazim, and anecdotally there are Poles at 23andme who claim to have discovered Ashkenazi ancestry. Iberia would be the exception, but there was a very large Sephardic population there for hundreds of years.
Interestingly, the percentage for Mexican-Americans is 4%, and we know from genealogies that a lot of Sephardim went to the New World trying to escape the long arm of the Inquisition. Some were still caught and persecuted, but not all.
@citizen of the world
Do you have any Egyptian ancestry? They get 4% "Jewish Diaspora". I think it might be recent there, but it might also go back to classical antiquity when there was an extremely large population of Jews in Egypt.
Davidski told me that 5% of Poles score over 1% Ashkenazi ancestry, but that average Ashkenazi ancestry in Poland is closer to 0,5%. According to this data, Poland has average 6% "Jewish Diaspora", which is 12 times more than according to Davidski.
I think that these percentages are exaggerated (even if Davidski's percentages are underestimated).
Scoring >1% of Ashkenazi ancestry is equivalent to having, for example, one 100% Ashkenazi great-great-great-great grandparent. It can also mean having multiple recent but just partially Jewish ancestors, or several fully Jewish but many generations ago.
Of course this "5% with over 1%" also includes people who have much more than 1%, even double digits.
For example current Poland's First Lady is probably ~25% Ashkenazi, her daughter is perhaps ~13% Ashkenazi.
Another issue is that "Jewish Diaspora" means not just Ashkenazim, and some Non-Ashkenazi Jews also lived in Poland.
=====================
Most of this Jewish ancestry is perhaps from Jews who converted to Christianity and became assimilated into Polish people. Some can be also from chidlren born out of wedlock. And some from Jewish children concealed as Christians during WW2.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.
I don't know, maybe, but my surname is very frequent in North Africa and Egypt
That thing always bothers me,
Separadim originated as many claim at Iberia/Navarra,
but Balkans was full of Separadim, Serayevo, Thessaloniki, etc, they even had great haham,
48 synagogues were only at Makedonia,
ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ
When there is no shame
Divine blindness conquers them
Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
Nemesis and punishment follows.
Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.
In any case Davidski is an amateur blogger.
Many of the Jews of the Balkans and Turkey were the ones expelled from Spain, Sardinia, Sicily, Malta and Naples btw.
Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.
http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look
The haplogroup is really interesting.
I'm not sure what's going on. You're probably right that the 6% figure is too high, but I don't believe a figure of .5%. Jews were living in what is now Poland and surrounding areas for 1200 years. At the beginning of that time if I'm not mistaken some areas weren't even Christian yet and intermarriage wasn't prohibited (Lithuania?). Plus, I would hardly take the word of someone with such a history of virulent anti-Semitism, and his "Jewish" calculator was terrible.
Do you remember if the Behar study on Ashkenazi IBD quantified gene flow into Poles? I'd go with that if they did the analysis and published it. Also, 23andme would definitely know. They have the best algorithm for the Ashkenazim. Just as they did with their African-American and European-American pool of samples, they could tell if there's been Ashkenazi admixture into Poles. Well, they could tell if there are enough samples. Fwiw, I've seen only a handful of Italians get any Ashkenazi percentages, so 2% seems high. Maybe it's something like 1% and includes Sephardim for Tuscany. Also fwiw, Geno 2.0 shows 5% Polish introgression into the Ashkenazim, which is exactly what Behar showed using IBD if I remember correctly.
Then, take a look at the "Southern European" and "Asia Minor" scores:
https://genographic.nationalgeograph...ions-next-gen/
Greece: 79/9
Iberia: 74/4
Tuscany: 59/4
Czech: 11/4
Russians: 3/4
Poland: 7/5
The "Asia Minor" score seems high to me for Poland and Czech Republic. Northwestern and Central Europeans don't get that additional Asia Minor.
Didn't the Hellenthal/Busby group pick up something from the Near East into Poland (or Eastern Europe in general) through their IBD analysis? I didn't think it made sense, and I'm unconvinced they have the timing right for these supposedly "recent" admixtures, but could that have something to do with this score for Poland? It never occurred to me at the time we were discussing it.
Geno 2.0 used to provide a breakdown for both Northern Italians and Tuscans, but unfortunately not for southern Italians. Now they only provide info for Tuscans. So, it's getting worse instead of better. Very annoying.
Anyway, I took a look at the southern European populations. Some of it makes sense and some doesn't.
This will be the order of the percentages provided: Southern European, Asia Minor, North Africa, Northwestern and Central Europe/Eastern Europe.
Greece: 79/9/2/0/7
Iberia:74/4/9/5 (+2% Great Britain and 0% East European)
Tuscany:59/4/2/28/3
The higher Asia Minor score for Greece than for Tuscany makes sense in that the wave from Anatolia would have hit Greece before Italy, and Greece might indeed have mediated some of that flow. Plus, most Tuscans plot northwest of even far northern Greeks. This isn't the first study that has found a lot of Central and Northwestern European in Tuscans (and more in Northern Italians); in fact, it's usually higher, at about 1/3 and more, so that's ok. I'm not sure about that 7% East European for Greece. That's about what the old Dienekes calculators showed if I'm not mistaken, but I thought it might be higher. Maybe not, though; the bigger percentages start north of Greece.
Looking at the reference populations as a whole, there are a few things that strike me oddly. These look like admixture calculator results tracking back into the past, but not that far back. Seemingly, not back as far as the Neolithic, and not even as far back as the Early Bronze. Why then do they have a category called Finland/Northern Siberia? Who are the Northern Siberians? Maybe someone who paid to take the test has access to more info.
I wonder how far it could go back? 1000-1500 years? The migration period?
The figure for the Amerindian percentage in Mexican Americans from Los Angeles is 67% and is high compared to other estimates I've seen, which are usually in the low 50s. To be honest, though, the higher number matches their appearance better, in my opinion.
Rather since 1200 AD, not for 1200 years. I'm not sure if they were already in Rhineland 1200 years ago, let alone Poland.
AFAIK, Ashkenazi bottleneck took place while they were in Rhineland (or even earlier), before moving eastward.
Some Jewish travellers and merchants visited this part of Europe (and even described it - see Abraham ben Jacob) as early as the 900s, but there is no evidence that any of them settled in the Poland at that time. Even if a few of them settled, those were just individuals, not organized communities with synagogues. First Jewish communities started to appear in Poland in the 1100s - 1200s.
However, until the end of the 15th century the share of Jews among the population of Poland-Lithuania amounted rather just to promiles. Their share surpassed the threshold of 1% during the 16th century, with immigration of Jews expelled from Germany.
Since 1500s until 1900 the share of Jews was increasing from 1/100 at the beginning to ca. 1/10 by the end of this period.
Times when Jews formed a really large portion of the total population of Poland-Lithuania, lasted a few centuries.
BTW - the earliest Jewish communities in Poland were Slavic-speaking (they spoke a language known as Leshon Knaan). Only later as the result of mass immigration of Jewish refugees from Germany, the whole Polish-Jewish Diaspora became Yiddish-speaking.
Maybe more intermarriages between Jews and Gentiles took place in early times, when local Jews spoke Leshon Knaan.
Perhaps some of those Slavic-speaking Jews assimilated into Gentiles, rather than into Yiddish-speaking immigrant Jews?
When it comes to the Near East - there were for example significant migrations of Armenians to Poland. Those Armenians were less endogamous than Jews, more prone to assimilation with the mainstream culture, and melted into local populations.
I don't remember, but I will check.
But endogamy is part of Jewish tradition, and it is like this already since Ancient times, before they left the Holy Land.
Those weren't [only] Christian laws which prohibited Jews from marrying Non-Jews, but those were Jewish laws [too].
Even today intermarriages between Orthodox Jews and Non-Jews are extremely rare, both in Israel and in the USA.
Well, in Israel even Non-Orthodox Jews very rarely mix with Arabs.
There was even a case in Israel when an Arab told a Jewish woman that he was Jewish, then they had consensual sex, but when she learned that he wasn't really Jewish, she accused him of "rape by deception", because he had lied about his ethnicity.
What exactly is so anti-Semitic about Davidski?
Yes, that's what I meant; they've been there since at least 1200 A.D and perhaps before.Tomenable;478403]Rather since 1200 AD, not for 1200 years. I'm not sure if they were already in Rhineland 1200 years ago, let alone Poland.
Obviously many researchers think there was substantial admixture, Tomenable, or we wouldn't have all these estimates for high European admixture into European Jews. A lot of them posit anywhere from 30-60%. Usually, that's held to have happened from absorption of female Europeans before or around the time of their move to the Rhineland. I don't know if ancient dna will prove or disprove those figures, but I do know that Judaism only became a non-proselytizing religion in response to persecution after Christianity became the religion of the Empire, often quite a bit after that time.But endogamy is part of Jewish tradition, and it is like this already since Ancient times, before they left the Holy Land.
Those weren't [only] Christian laws which prohibited Jews from marrying Non-Jews, but those were Jewish laws [too].
Before that there was indeed conversion of both men and women, not to mention that in the first century or so after Christ there was little distinction between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. In terms of the formation of the Ashkenazi genetic group, usually that's held to have happened from absorption of female Europeans before or around the time of their move to the Rhineland. However, I've done extensive research of records in my own area, and as late as the 8th century, if I remember correctly, notes survive which speak of Jewish landowners who had converted all the workers on their estates. It was indeed against the law already by then, which is why there was correspondence about it. The Bishop of Luni was being reprimanded for letting it go on. There was also the occasional note about Jews converting to Christianity. In one case the Bishop undertook to provide the wedding dress for the Jewish girl since her parents wouldn't do it.
There are those who theorize that a lot of the admixture actually occurred in the Rhineland because Jewish men took gentile wives, and it was accepted because Church law wasn't yet as strictly enforced there. I don't know if that's true or not or if most of it happened earlier.
In terms of Polish admixture into Jews, perhaps there were some conversions in the early days, servants or retainers of one sort or another, or wives taken from the Polish community, or, it has to be admitted, through rape over the years during periods of persecution. Both Behar and Geno 2.0 are proposing 5% admixture so that seems pretty solid.
In terms of the opposite flow no one is positing anything very large. Geno 2.0 says 6% of the Polish genome is from the "Jewish diaspora". That seems high given how much prejudice there was against them, but I wouldn't be surprised if some admixture did occur, particularly of women in the early days, because it's more easily accepted. That was certainly true during the war. There are a lot of documentaries about how the more "gentile looking" Jewish women obtained false papers and "passed" to escape the death chambers. Obviously, it was almost impossible for men to pass. We only know about this because after the dissolution of the Soviet Empire some of them came forward. In almost all cases their own children didn't know, sometimes, in fact, their husbands didn't know. In the videos I've seen some of them have said that they know of others but won't give their names because many of them are still afraid for their families.
So, I don't know. Tomorrow I'm going to see if I have time to re-read the Behar paper and find out whether he quantified if there was gene flow from Jews into the Polish community. If he did, I'd go with that number.
This admixture could be already from Ancient times.
For example archaeological evidence shows that there were a lot of connections and cultural contacts between Ancient Minoan civilization and Ancient Canaanites, who were ancestors of Hebrews and thus of Jews (as archaeological evidence also demonstrates).
So already Ancient Jews could have Minoan-like admixture.
Which probably explains why Jews have ~0% WHG. All modern European populations have WHG, including South Europeans.
But Jews usually score ~0% WHG (if not counting that WHG which was already part of EEF), if I remember correctly.
All modern Europeans have some WHG, so European admixture in Jews probably comes from some Ancient ENF population.
=========================
It has been suggested that 4 "founding mothers" who are ancestral to 40% of Ashkenazim, were European converts:
mother with haplogroup K1a1b1a1 - ca. 20%
mother with haplogroup N1b2 - ca. 9%
mother with haplogroup K1a9 - ca. 6%
mother with haplogroup K2a2a1 - ca. 5%
The remaining 60% of Ashkenazi mtDNA are many distinct lineages, none of them as numerous as these four above.
A 2013 study led by Martin B. Richards suggested these Ashkenazi female lineages are from European converts. But a more recent study from 2014 led by Eva Fernandez has debunked that, as they've found that Neolithic farmers who lived near Tell Halula, Tell Ramad and Tell Dja'de El Mughara in period between 8700 BC and 6600 BC had very similar maternal lineages as Ashkenazi Jews:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Ramad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Halula
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Dschaʿdat_al-Mughara
Samples of mtDNA haplogroup K have also been found in Mesolithic Greece (near Theopetra, Thessaly):
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/11/25/032763
So in fact Ashkenazi Jews score ~90% EEF autosomally and their mtDNA haplogroups are also typically ENF.
It seems that they are more genetically native to the Levant than its present-day Muslim inhabitants.
====================
Population - EEF / WHG / ANE:
Ashkenazim - 93.1 / 0 / 6.9
Source:
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...4/001552-3.pdf
Check Table S14.9 from page 111.
They only have as much WHG as EEF had, but nothing "extra".
Most of European admixture in Ashkenazim is always classified as Southern European, and the 2nd source is Eastern European. They rather do not score more than 3% Western European - not enough for that admixture to have occured in the Rhineland. And also they didn't really need to take gentile wives, because IIRC entire Jewish families - men, women and children - settled there.
Those weren't just lonely Jewish men marrying local women, but entire communities on the move.
Also most of mtDNA haplogroups in Rhineland's Gentile population are rather of Hunter-Gatherer & Steppe origins.
So how did those Jewish men manage to pick up wifes carrying only Neolithic ENF mtDNA haplogroups?
Obviously they didn't have haplogroup predictors back then, and physical appearance is determined by autosomes.
All of this suggests that Jewish "founding mothers" were not from any area where HG or Steppe mtDNA dominates.
Geno 2.0 provided for Tuscans and Sardinians just as Geno 2.0 Next Generation, as I know.
All the southern European populations on Geno 2.0 Next Generation (French are only partially southern European though).
A my friend is thinking that Jewish Diaspora on Next Geno has to do with Punic diaspora because Lebanese score 14% but afaik in Lebanon there was historically a Jewish population and Tunisia score 0% of it in these samples.
https://genographic.nationalgeograph...ions-next-gen/
Basically all Europeans score some fraction of it.All the southern European populations on Geno 2.0 Next Generation (French are only partially southern European though).
This what intrigues me, Tunisia score 0% Jewish Diaspora while I score 04% perhaps it is related to my high rates of arabian dna (19%) compared to Tunisian population .
You're right, even the first version only provided data for Tuscans. I just had some data from individual Northern Italian testees.Pax Augusta;478421]Geno 2.0 provided for Tuscans and Sardinians just as Geno 2.0 Next Generation, as I know.
Yet the Poland, Russia, and Germany scores are among the highest, and they were never impacted by the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians, and those countries also had the largest Ashkenazi populations.Pax Augusta: my friend is thinking that Jewish Diaspora on Next Geno has to do with Punic diaspora because Lebanese score 14% but afaik in Lebanon there was historically a Jewish population and Tunisia score 0% of it in these samples.
UK:2%
Tuscany: 2%
Greece: 2%
France: 3%
Czech: 4%
Iberia: 5%
Romania: 5%
Russia:5%
Germany: 5%
Poland: 6%
Of the European countries for which data is provided, Scottish, Irish, Dutch, Danes and Norwegians don't show any. So, probably we could generalize and say it's not in the Scandinavian countries generally, or in most northwestern European countries, France being the exception, but also a hybrid of sorts.Hauteville:Basically all Europeans score some fraction of it.
@Tomenable
With such a severe bottleneck down to a few hundred people and thus even fewer women, mtDna lines (and yDna ones as well) were bound to be lost. Plus you'd have to do really refined and downstream sub-clade analyses, which to my knowledge haven't been done for the mtDna lines.
I did skim the Behar IBD paper and all I could find was 5% IBD sharing between Poles and Ashkenazim.
IMHO Jewish Diaspora has to do properly with the Jewish. It's spread where there were Jewish communities, so it makes sense. Furthermore Punic diaspora could have some relations only with Iberia and Sardinia, but also in Iberia and Sardinia there were Jewish communities.
Poland: 6%
Iberia: 5%
Romania: 5%
Russia:5%
Germany: 5%
Czech: 4%
France: 3%
Sardinia:3%
UK:2%
Tuscany: 2%
Greece: 2%
Interesting.
Are you full Tunisian?your results are a bit different from the average of the country.
Yeah for Europeans i mean eastern and south Euros. But it is interesting that Dutch doesn't score any of it because afaik it also had a large Jewish population in the past, especially around Amsterdam.
Yes I agree.IMHO Jewish Diaspora has to do properly with the Jewish.
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