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Thread: Early Medieval Migrations into Northern Italy through uniparental markers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Some of the non-native / non-local Y-DNA lineages in Lombardy could be also brought by the Celtic tribes and not only by the Germanic tribes.
    French have hardly any I1, so it is unlikely Gauls brought much I1. The I1 that does exist in France, can be explained by Germans. It surprising how unlike Germans, the French are, so Rome probably protected them from German migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    French have hardly any I1, so it is unlikely Gauls brought much I1. The I1 that does exist in France, can be explained by Germans. It surprising how unlike Germans, the French are, so Rome probably protected them from German migrations.
    You mean that germanic tribe of Franks, who conquered "France", didn't have much I1?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You mean that germanic tribe of Franks, who conquered "France", didn't have much I1?
    Franks definitely had a lot of I1. I was pointing out that there's little I1 in modern France, meaning Germans never made a big Y DNA impact on France and Gauls are an unlikely source for I1 in Italy.

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    according to Maciamo: Y-I1: Brittany:8%, Normandy 7%, Flandres-Artois (north):13%, Alsace: 8%;
    surely 2/3 of these Y-I1 are from Germanics, but not all of them (Brittany had contacts with Vikings, but its anthropologic results compared to Normandy cannot explain this situation by more Vikings or more Franks!) We can presume that Belgae were the most provided for Y-I1 even if relatively weakly.
    That said I agree the possible percentage of 4-5% I1 among Celts cannot produce huge %s in Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You mean that germanic tribe of Franks, who conquered "France", didn't have much I1?
    there were Franks on both sides of the river Rhine
    the Franks conquered and founded France but they didn't replace the population
    they were an elite but needed other administrators to help govern the country, as they were illiterate themselves
    they left a big part of the Roman inheritage intact

    the Franks may have been I1, without bringing much of it into France

    if I recall correctly, some Merovingian (early Frankish dynasty) DNA turned out to be G2a

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    French have hardly any I1, so it is unlikely Gauls brought much I1. The I1 that does exist in France, can be explained by Germans. It surprising how unlike Germans, the French are, so Rome probably protected them from German migrations.
    Of course, without Y-DNA hg. 'I' Germanic tribes would never be Germanic. Y-DNA hg. I1 is part of the Germanic race. But it could be that some haplogroups in Lombardy are not from Germanic tribes, but from Celtic tribes who settled in Northern Italy before the Germanic refugees arrived.

    I think that the hg. I1 in Northern Italy is most probably from the Germanic refugees, true. But it is wrong to assume that some haplogroups can't be from the Celts because of the low distribution among the modern Celts. It could be that some ancient Celtic tribes or clans that migrated into the Northern Italy belonged mostly to the minor haplogroups. Clans & tribes have mostly a patriarchate construction and most males are paternally related to each other. The mixing only occurs if you get the confederation of different tribes.

    I do take myself as an example. I do belong to a small clan of people (a couple of dozens of families/homes - villages) where all males share the same common paternal ancestry. And I do belong to 'maybe?' a rare haplogroup of my ethnicity. So if all my clan members had to flee to a saver place and start a new life and grow in population, native people would wrongly assume that all folks in the original homeland of the newcomers belong mostly to the same rare haplogroup where my clan belongs to.
    Last edited by Goga; 14-04-16 at 14:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there were Franks on both sides of the river Rhine
    the Franks conquered and founded France but they didn't replace the population
    they were an elite but needed other administrators to help govern the country, as they were illiterate themselves
    they left a big part of the Roman inheritage intact

    the Franks may have been I1, without bringing much of it into France

    if I recall correctly, some Merovingian (early Frankish dynasty) DNA turned out to be G2a
    That said, the Germanic imput in N and E France is far to be neglictible (Franks, Vikings┬░Saxons, Alamans, Burgundians). Placenames and some dialectal evolutions and classical (but valuable) physical atrhopology show all this imput, I think it was about 15 to 30% according to North or Eastern regions of France. I posted in other threads about the Frans density of placenames in North/Northeastern France. Three generations ago, Northerners of France seemd (just a bit) more "germaniclike" than Walloons, and tehre were still differences in Normandy between the 'bocage' countrymen and coasts inhabitants.
    I think the most of Western Germanics were principally Y-R1b-U106, Y-I1 + some Y-I2a2 and rare Y-R1a. Nothing excludes they took some earlier "autochtonous" Y-HGs (R-U152, Y-G, Y-I2a1 on their road towards South. In fact Y-I2a2 was pre-Germanic and could have been absorbed by Celts as well as by Germanics.
    to go back to the core of this thread, the sepcific population studied in Italy could have known some internal drift concerning Y-Haplos. But a mix of diverses successive elites could explain the today results too. Concerning Y-J2-M67, it could have been part of the first Italics (mixed with Y-R1b-U152 and others maybe); why not think in Etruscans too?
    Saying U152 was only Celtic is wrong I think. Ligurians and Italics had of it, Ipresume. The high presence in Corsica doesn't seem a Celtic inheritage, by instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there were Franks on both sides of the river Rhine
    the Franks conquered and founded France but they didn't replace the population
    they were an elite but needed other administrators to help govern the country, as they were illiterate themselves
    they left a big part of the Roman inheritage intact

    the Franks may have been I1, without bringing much of it into France

    if I recall correctly, some Merovingian (early Frankish dynasty) DNA turned out to be G2a
    Certainly. I suspect you are referring to the House of Bourbon (I suspect G-P303) who descend from a French noble, not William the Conqueror. It probably has to do with the fact LBK collapsed in central Europe along with many of the Near Eastern YDNA lineages. Otherwise, we'd all be 90% EEF or Stuttgart clones right now bearing higher frequencies of G2a, E-V13 and J2 lineages.

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