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Thread: Y-DNA from Germany in the 300s-400s AD shows 58% frequency of I1 and not much R1b

  1. #26
    Elite member Tomenable's Avatar
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    U106 is a Celtic and Slavic repellent. Where ever Celts and Slavs live U106 is rare
    Nope. U106 is very frequent in territories which used to be Gallia Belgica (Gaule Belgique):

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...es_gaulois.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired 14
    In Britanny and France and Ireland and Poland U106 is rare, while in England and Germany and Netherlands and Austria and Scandinavia U106 is popular.
    Check this 2015 paper on U106 by Iain McDonald:

    http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...15-revised.pdf

    On page 4 out of 22 he gives frequencies of U106:



    Celtic "Urheimat" as well as lands of the Belgae have high frequencies of R1b-U106:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Tène_culture

    Beaker Folks were IMHO not Celtic - they spoke some language which is long EXTINCT by now:




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    Hallstatt Celtic influence in the British Isles outside of England itself was small:

    (so the Welsh are not genetically Celtic, they just speak a Celtic language; like Afro-Americans speak English):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The bulk of the population of the Frankish Empire were Non-Germanic descendants of Roman citizens.

    Those Roman citizens were themselves descended from Gauls and Belgae who adopted Latin language.
    the Franks didn't displace the original population, neither did other Germanic tribes that crossed the borders of the former Roman empire
    there are no indications that the Franks replaced populations in territories they conquered subseqently
    the Franks were merely a ruling class
    if they did so in Saxony, that would be an exception

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    @Tomenable,

    Belgium is right next door to the Netherlands, and many there speak Dutch. Austrians speak German, so of course they have lots of U106. Belgea were conquered by Rome, then Franks. Anglo Saxons obviously brought most of the U106 to the Isles, because it so much more popular in England than Celtic Isles people. Anglo Saxons came from Denmark and Germany, not former Belgea country. Belgea can't explain the strong presence of U106 in Scandinavia at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Maybe the original Franks were also mostly I1 but absorbed a lot of r1b from their conquests to the west. Population density was likely far higher in post-Roman Gaul than in Germania due to the technological differences. So a lot of the Romans/Gauls would have been absorbed by them, passing on their language and culture and therefore also ethnic identity.
    That's a possibility at the moment. We have to wait and see. Tomenable might be right asserting that most U106 in Francs came from Celts farther west. Later when Frankish empire was a dominant force its citizens spread to the rest of Germany and Central Europe bringing U106 with them.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    The question of an eventual colonization of Saxony by galo-frankians, let say it, is unheard to me and is against the known Frankish politics over conquered territories to appoint Frankish officials to rule the region. I don't know any Frankish colinization but i don't know everything...

    The high percent of Y-DNA I could be explained more easily with this map:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._expansion.gif

    The region of the samples was Germanized some five-six centuries before, so all possible admixture was not done yet.

    Take per example the case of Spaniards in Peru, the possible admixture with locals after let say 1000 years, and the actual genetic map of the country with prodominant indigenous regions against the european ones.

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    Tomen,

    I have the feeling, that you created a theory, which will be soon crushed :)

    Of course, it is possible, what you are assuming, BUT 12 samples from
    only one place don't seem to be adequate to all Germania at that time.

    And I have a quite good intuition, which many times was right. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    The question of an eventual colonization of Saxony by galo-frankians, let say it, is unheard to me and is against the known Frankish politics over conquered territories to appoint Frankish officials to rule the region. I don't know any Frankish colinization but i don't know everything...
    What we are referring too is a slow migration of population from West to East Germany, then later from Germany to Poland, Prussia or even Russia, which pretty much lasted to 1,400 hundreds.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's a possibility at the moment. We have to wait and see. Tomenable might be right asserting that most U106 in Francs came from Celts farther west. Later when Frankish empire was a dominant force its citizens spread to the rest of Germany and Central Europe bringing U106 with them.
    It would be ironic if a Germanic tribe (Franks) caused a large genetic replacement of Germanic DNA in Germania with that of foreigners. Funny how Merkel is doing the same to modern Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Maybe the original Franks were also mostly I1 but absorbed a lot of r1b from their conquests to the west. Population density was likely far higher in post-Roman Gaul than in Germania due to the technological differences. So a lot of the Romans/Gauls would have been absorbed by them, passing on their language and culture and therefore also ethnic identity.
    I1, or at least his immediate ancestor is exceedingly old in northern or central Europe, so it's highly unlikely they were the Indo European speakers. This leaves only R1a or R1b, Battle Axe and Atlantic Bronze/BB specifically to have brought Germanic speaking languages to central/northern Europe.

    To Tomenable's point that I1 was more frequent, I think that's jumping to conclusions a little bit. Let's not forget this is still a very small sample which could also be overestimated with kinship. We also see samples 2 of 2 which were R1b in a Berlin sample, and 1 of 1 as I1 in Anglo-Saxon England. The only thing this suggests is that I1 was likely brought with Germanic speakers, not the relative percentages of the population around 400 AD.

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    Lebrok. I know such colonization process, but is not related to the Frankish kingdom but to the Holy German Empire, and the colonized lands were mainly slav instead... as i understood the poster atributes actual R1b to galo-frankish colonization which is to me unheard.

    Also to compare actual mean german genetics with old ones is to me a very gross mistake taking into account that Germany is a political product of the XIX-XX Centuries and that such territory suffered various known migrations: celts in the south, germanics coming gradualy from the north, romans ruling the south, slavs occuping the east, and then germans colonizing slavic lands in the east till reaching Wien and so.

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    These are very interesting samples, but I have to agree with Maciamo here that we can't read anything into the frequencies at all. Any given family tomb having very high percentages of I1 doesn't tell us any more about the larger Germanic population than modern carriers of the surname English surname Mead being ~68% I2 tells us about the larger English population.

    Are there at least STRs or some way we can see how much diversity there is in the I1?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    I1, or at least his immediate ancestor is exceedingly old in northern or central Europe, so it's highly unlikely they were the Indo European speakers. This leaves only R1a or R1b, Battle Axe and Atlantic Bronze/BB specifically to have brought Germanic speaking languages to central/northern Europe.

    To Tomenable's point that I1 was more frequent, I think that's jumping to conclusions a little bit. Let's not forget this is still a very small sample which could also be overestimated with kinship. We also see samples 2 of 2 which were R1b in a Berlin sample, and 1 of 1 as I1 in Anglo-Saxon England. The only thing this suggests is that I1 was likely brought with Germanic speakers, not the relative percentages of the population around 400 AD.
    This makes a lot of sense.


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    Six ancient human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf in Germany belonged to R1b and the R1b people were present in modern-day Germany by 2,000 BCE (Lee et al. 2012). The Germanic tribes were originally from Scandinavia and they settled in present-day Denmark by 750 BC and their settlements were expanded to Southern Germany by AD 1. The German article (Harthun et al. 2015) concludes that these ancient individuals were Central Europeans, arguing that haplogroups I, J and E were introduced from the Middle East to Europe around 10,000 years ago, but the Görzig site could have been one of those Norse settlements, considering the high percentage of hg I1. Some regions of modern-day Germany may have been largely inhabited by the Germanic tribes with haplogroup I1 and they gradually admixed with the R1b population before the emergence of a common German identity. Today, R1b and I1 account for 36% and 16% in East Germany respectively and R1b is the majority haplogroup in South Germany and West Germany (47-48%).


    The expansion of the Germanic tribes 750 BC – AD 1 (after the Penguin Atlas of World History 1988)

    The transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture in Europe is associated with demographic changes that may have shifted the human gene pool of the region as a result of an influx of Neolithic farmers from the Near East. However, the genetic composition of populations after the earliest Neolithic, when a diverse mosaic of societies that had been fully engaged in agriculture for some time appeared in central Europe, is poorly known. At this period during the Late Neolithic (ca. 2,800-2,000 BC), regionally distinctive burial patterns associated with two different cultural groups emerge, Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, and may reflect differences in how these societies were organized. Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b. In contrast to other Late Neolithic societies in Europe emphasizing maintenance of biological relatedness in mortuary contexts, the diversity of maternal haplotypes evident at Kromsdorf suggests that burial practices of Bell Beaker communities operated outside of social norms based on shared maternal lineages. Furthermore, our data, along with those from previous studies, indicate that modern U5-lineages may have received little, if any, contribution from the Mesolithic or Neolithic mitochondrial gene pool.
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 19-04-16 at 04:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Also to compare actual mean german genetics with old ones is to me a very gross mistake taking into account that Germany is a political product of the XIX-XX Centuries and that such territory suffered various known migrations: celts in the south, germanics coming gradualy from the north, romans ruling the south, slavs occuping the east, and then germans colonizing slavic lands in the east till reaching Wien and so.
    Germany is a young idea, but people in Germany are suppose to be the descendants of the various nations that lived in "Germania" from the Iron age to Early Middle Ages. Genetic continuum between Early Medieval Eastern Germany and modern Eastern Germany is expected. Germany is very distinct from their neighbors(France, Italy, Poland, and Britain) in terms of Y DNA. Their Y DNA though is similar to linguistically relatives in Scandinavia. So, that alone is good evidence that modern German Y DNA is mostly descended from Iron age Germania, not Celts or Slavs or anyone else.

    The country Germany is in a similar situation as big countries like Italy and Spain and France. The idea of those countries isn't 2,000 years old but the people there are suppose to be the descendants of the people who lived there from when the earliest writing(circa 500 BC-0 AD) referring to those places came about.

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Genetic continuum between Early Medieval Eastern Germany and modern Eastern Germany is expected.
    Well, archaeology and palynology don't support this idea. They show a depopulation in areas between the Elbe and the Oder during the early 5th to early 6th centuries, followed by repopulation from the East during the late 6th and 7th centuries, followed by the Northern Crusades - at first during the 8th and 9th centuries against Pagan Saxons and Thuringians who lived to the west of the Elbe; then during the 10th, 11th, 12th and early 13th centuries against Slavs who lived between the Elbe and the Oder. During and after those Northern Crusades a re-population of areas devastated by war took place, driven by settlers coming from the West. Here is a summary of pollen data posted by user Frank N. from Hamburg:

    This analysis refers to areas of present-day East Germany (i.e. between the Elbe and the Oder):

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank N.
    1. At the beginning of the migration period, there is a widespread, sudden and massive drop in settlement along the Baltic Sea coast and its extended hinterland. This drop starts sometimes during the early fifth century somewhere in Eastern Pomerania, and progresses westwards over the next century until it comes to a halt around 550 AD in Middle Holstein, at the Ilmenau river in Lower Saxony, and near (probably east of) the Harz mountains.

    2. Repopulation, driven by Slavic immigration, takes place during the seventh century. Pollen diagrams suggest a westward movement along or parallel to the Baltic coast [i.e. from Poland], other movements (up the Oder and Elbe) might have also occurred, but can't be traced from the pollen diagrams that I have examined. By the end of the seventh century, the migration reaches the middle Elbe and East Holstein [see also the map below].
    Then there was this:

    3. The Northern Crusades (at first Frankish conquest of Saxons & Thuringians, then German conquest of Slavs).

    And back to Frank N:

    This below refers only to colonisation of areas to the east of the Elbe (to the west of the Elbe it started earlier):

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank N.
    4. In the second half of the twelfth century, a strong and steady increase in settlement begins, which peaks by the late 14th century. This increase starts in East Holstein around 1150 and moves eastwards. It reaches the Oder around 1250. The geographical spread and the timeline correspond well to the German colonisation.
    So it was a pretty turbulent time, and the final stage of that sequence was immigration from the West.

    Map:

    After the migration period, this black-orange line (map below) was the Slavic-Germanic ethnic border:

    Görzig is located almost exactly at that ethnic borderland.

    Our 12 Y-DNA samples discussed in this thread are from Görzig, but they are from the 300s-450s AD, so they pre-date the depopulation and the Slavic expansion, which took place during the 450s-600s AD in this region:


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    Genetic continuum between Early Medieval Eastern Germany and modern Eastern Germany is expected. Germany is very distinct from their neighbors(France, Italy, Poland, and Britain) in terms of Y DNA.
    Tomenable includes information to doubt about the degree of continuity; of course conquest/colonization rarely wipes out the previous population, but you can take the example of Anglo-saxons invading Britons and how nowadays English people have a 30% or so of Germanic DNA. If taking things even less dramatic, East Germany was occupied by X tribes, then in the II Iron Age was occupied by Germanics (you can count a +15% foreign DNA), then occupied by Slavs around 500 AD (+15% foreig DNA), and then again occupied by Germans around 1000-1200 (+15% foreig DNA that came mainly from Old Saxony); suming up it would be that between X DNA and actual DNA you can count as minimum that half of it is not so ancient.

    As an example, that from Procopius' History of Wars (7, 38), how after the slavs won the Byzantine local garrison of Topirus, in the Thracian coast: "Then they slew all the men immediately, to the number of fifteen thousand, took all the valuables as plunder, and reduced the children and women to slavery. Before this, however, they had spared no age, but both these and the other group, since the time when they fell upon the land of the Romans, had been killing all who fell in their way, young and old alike, so that the whole land inhabited by the Illyrians and Thracians came to be everywhere filled with unburied corpses." In The Secret History (18): "But the Gepides control Sirmium [near Belgrad] and the country thereabout, which is all, roughly speaking, completely destitute of human habitation. For some were destroyed by the war, some by disease and famine, the natural concomitants of war. And lllyricum and Thrace in its entirety, comprising the whole expanse of country from the Ionian Gulf to the outskirts of Byzantium, including Greece and the Thracian Chersonnese, was overrun practically every year by Huns, Sclaveni and Antae, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire, and they wrought frightful havoc among the inhabitants of that region. For in each invasion more than twenty myriads of Romans, I think, were destroyed or enslaved there, so that a veritable ‘Scythian wilderness’ came to exist everywhere in this land."

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    Interesting idea but i'd hold back for a while. If you look at a relief map

    http://www.indiecartographer.com/wp-...lief-CM-wm.jpg

    Germany is clearly two zones: mountainous south, north European plain in the north. So if the ydna I were the paleos covering the whole area and the R1b originally came from the east I'd suggest the ydna I people would be more likely to carry on being the majority in the mountain south.

    (even more so if they'd been displaced by the farmers first and the then the R1b replaced the farmers)

    so I wouldn't be surprised if you're at least partly right (the R1b maps always looked mostly west to east to me) but I wonder if in the particular case of Gorzig the direction may have been north->south rather west->east?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    I1, or at least his immediate ancestor is exceedingly old in northern or central Europe, so it's highly unlikely they were the Indo European speakers. This leaves only R1a or R1b, Battle Axe and Atlantic Bronze/BB specifically to have brought Germanic speaking languages to central/northern Europe.

    To Tomenable's point that I1 was more frequent, I think that's jumping to conclusions a little bit. Let's not forget this is still a very small sample which could also be overestimated with kinship. We also see samples 2 of 2 which were R1b in a Berlin sample, and 1 of 1 as I1 in Anglo-Saxon England. The only thing this suggests is that I1 was likely brought with Germanic speakers, not the relative percentages of the population around 400 AD.
    Germanic languages are known to have a higher percentage of non-indoeuropean words compared to the surrounding language families. I think Germanic languages originated as fusion between the local languages spoken by the I1 and the incoming r1b and r1a invaders, while other IE language families were more "pure" indoeuropean in their vocabulary. This could have been caused by higher pre-indoeuropean ancestry in Scandinavians due to the cold and inhospitable terrain (especially since Indoeuropean used chariots and other wheeled vehicles during their migrations, which would have been difficult to use in battle in Scandinavia). A very high I1 % would make a lot of sense for the original Germanic language speakers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...ate_hypothesis
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

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    @Tomenable, berun.

    Ok, sure there could have been a lot of population replacement in East Germany after the Iron age. Tomenable, I still don't think U106 is mostly a Belgea marker. It peaks in Dutch, who are Franks. Belgium probably has a lot because they're of largely Germanic-origin. The relatively high amount of U106 in Scandinavia(10-15%), can't be explained by Belgea. U152 and DF27 were certainly the main Y DNA haplogroups of Belgea and Gauls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Germanic languages are known to have a higher percentage of non-indoeuropean words compared to the surrounding language families. I think Germanic languages originated as fusion between the local languages spoken by the I1 and the incoming r1b and r1a invaders, while other IE language families were more "pure" indoeuropean in their vocabulary. This could have been caused by higher pre-indoeuropean ancestry in Scandinavians due to the cold and inhospitable terrain (especially since Indoeuropean used chariots and other wheeled vehicles during their migrations, which would have been difficult to use in battle in Scandinavia). A very high I1 % would make a lot of sense for the original Germanic language speakers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...ate_hypothesis
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age
    the non european probably didn't come from I1
    I1 has one single ancestor 4700 years old, that time first IE people were allready in Scandinavia

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    Baltic Finnish has earlier linguistic contacts to Proto-Germanic than Celtic or Balto-Slavic have, Finns have I1 that is related to Saxon lines in Germany and Britain.

    You can throw in the archelogical evidence also, seax finds etc.

    Do the math.


    PS, Baltic Finnish word for Germany is Saksa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    Interesting idea but i'd hold back for a while. If you look at a relief map

    http://www.indiecartographer.com/wp-...lief-CM-wm.jpg

    Germany is clearly two zones: mountainous south, north European plain in the north.
    I also see in Germany more north-south division rather than east-west.
    It might be a coincidence, but the relief map above fits to the dialect border lines:
    Uerdinger line
    Benrath line

    North of these lines is the area of the Plattdeutsch language (Low German), which is essentially ancient Saxon language and is much more similar to English than is standard German. Plattdeutsch is barely understandable by germans not knowing Plattdeutsch. Few people in the north still speak it. Before Martin Luther, all northern Germany spoke Platt.
    The Saxons were not decimated at all, quite to the contrary, after they have been defeated by the Franks, they soon overtook the rule from the frankish Merowingians and Karolingians, and were called Ottonians. Later, Henry the Lion from Brunswick significantly drove the east colonization. Although he was again from a frankish aristrocratic line, he was considered a saxon king (Duchy_of_Saxony, with Westfalia and Lower-Saxony/Eastfalia as core areas). "Falen/Falia" literally means Saxony.

    Even in the later colonised east of Germany, the north-south division remained mostly intact, because north of the Erzgebirge mountains, mostly Saxon colonists settled, whereas in the mountains there settled mostly south Germans. The southernmost east-german province "Saxony" is ironically the least saxon settled colony in the east.

    So if the ydna I were the paleos covering the whole area and the R1b originally came from the east I'd suggest the ydna I people would be more likely to carry on being the majority in the mountain south.
    That might apply to I2, but not I1. I think I1 is too much bottlenecked and recent, and it probably spread by germanic or funnelbeaker agriculture in the lowlands in general - in north german, south swedish and danish plains. At the same time Norway and South Germany have less I1 and are mountainous.
    I think I2 is the mesolithic remnant that survived in mountainous pockets like north Sweden, Harz mountains, Thuringia and somewhat Bavaria. R1b was also well enough adapted to mountains due to cattle and perhaps also metallurgy. I1 possibly had multiplied by agriculture in fertile plains (Görzig is situated in the higly fertile "Magdeburger Börde"). I wonder whether it has a connection to Funnelbeakers and the much older neolithic farmer I1 from the Hungarian plain, and possibly Goseck near Görzig (Goseck_circle).

    (even more so if they'd been displaced by the farmers first and the then the R1b replaced the farmers)

    so I wouldn't be surprised if you're at least partly right (the R1b maps always looked mostly west to east to me) but I wonder if in the particular case of Gorzig the direction may have been north->south rather west->east?
    Last edited by ElHorsto; 21-04-16 at 16:06. Reason: hyperlink for Ottonians fixed

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post


    Six ancient human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf in Germany belonged to R1b and the R1b people were present in modern-day Germany by 2,000 BCE (Lee et al. 2012). The Germanic tribes were originally from Scandinavia and they settled in present-day Denmark by 750 BC and their settlements were expanded to Southern Germany by AD 1. The German article (Harthun et al. 2015) concludes that these ancient individuals were Central Europeans, arguing that haplogroups I, J and E were introduced from the Middle East to Europe around 10,000 years ago, but the Görzig site could have been one of those Norse settlements, considering the high percentage of hg I1. Some regions of modern-day Germany may have been largely inhabited by the Germanic tribes with haplogroup I1 and they gradually admixed with the R1b population before the emergence of a common German identity. Today, R1b and I1 account for 36% and 16% in East Germany respectively and R1b is the majority haplogroup in South Germany and West Germany (47-48%).
    You are a great mind. Are you a scientist?

    I think that the Germanic race and language were born after hg. I (I1 & I2) and R1b mixed with each other. At the first early stage, R1b was much more dominant in Germanic lands. Later there was a hg. I gene flow from Scandinavia into Germania. So the balance between hg. I and hg. R1b was shifted in the advantage of hg. I.

    But hg. R1b from Yamnaya was still the most dominant haplogroup in Central Europe. So hg. R1b gradually replaced hg. I in Germania. +There was some R1a migration from the east, (R1a tribes from the Slavonic lands started to arrive in Germania), so hg. R1a & R1b were growing in population, while hg. I was declining in population in Germania.

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