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Thread: Y-DNA from Germany in the 300s-400s AD shows 58% frequency of I1 and not much R1b

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    It is probably there were more I1 in Germany in past, maybe not so long ago.

    There is interesting story for two Serbian men with I1 haplogroup.

    It is proved that they are descendants of Saxons whose ancestors worked as miners in Serbian mines in Middle Age (13th, 14th century).

    Although it is small sample, there is assumption based on evidence of haplogroups that Saxons who came to the Balkans as miners were mostly or dominantly I1 carriers.

    I have an assumption.

    Maybe I1 carriers in Saxon areas in Germany and surrounding were starving due to black death (1346-1671).

    About 1/3 of European population extinct and it can be possible that among them are Saxon I1 carriers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Not yet. Not to my knowledge at least.



    Ptolemy (lived in 90-168 AD) placed the Angles (Suebi Angili) rather deep inland:

    Of course during the next few centuries they could possibly move towards the north:

    Homelands of Angili, Frisii and Saxones according to Ptolemy

    Albis = River Elbe


    I answer you principally here, without having read the numerous last posts.
    Sorry for my "prose", a bit hard to digest I suppose.



    -Sax/Nieder-Sachsen today is THE NORTHWEST of Germany. Sax-Anhalt inEastern Germany is only a bit, and it could be a lately extension ofthe western Sax (???)


    -The Ptolemeus map is very uncertain for geographic precise locations.And it mentions Longobardi, Suebi Longobardi, SuebiSemnonesandSuebi Angili. These« Suebi something » names are in line so I suppose it'sthe name of composed tribes under the Suebi rule, inevery casenot a hazard of writing on the map confusing us about the reality(for Ptolemeus) of these « composed » tribes ?If it's not an error, itimplies Suebi Longobardi was a new compound of tribes distinct fromthe original Longobardi : Suebi Longobardi seems placedby him south the Ruhr region, south the Sugambri tribe whenLongobardi is situed by him in North, south the Angrivari and northhis Suebi Angili and Cherusci (today german historians placedLangobarden north Angrivari). I 'm not sure it's of worth discussingtoo much about locations because some tribes had changed placed overtime. What is interesting is seeing Longobardi separated from SuebiLongobardi : so we can imagine someAngili existed apart fromSuebi Angili, and were situated more northernly ? Unseasyto prove or disprove. Allthe way Angles stayed plenty of time in Southern Jutland since beforethe end of Roman times.


    -Concerning sample size andaccuracy I have in mind the Liechtenstein (Harz Unstrut culture)people where, upon STRsit's true, 12 men wereclassified Y-I2a2 (L38) vs 2 Y-R1a and 1 Y-R1b(U106). There has beenmentioned 4 lignages for Y-I2a2 there, at first, but later, someonessaid this human group show family links. So the reasoning of Y-I2a2there = % of 12/15 males could be without sense. By the way too,the 2 R1a would have been of an unic lignage. So I hold with Maciamowhen he says the sample for East Saxons in question here isunreliable to establish ratio's of I1>< R-U106 among theGermanics.


    - Interesting, thanks toFireHaired : I suppose its%s are reliable : the ratio U106/totalR1b-M269 :
    Eire : 7,5 % - Wales :6,0 % - France : 13,5 % - Scotland : 16,5 %(no surprise here)-
    Switzerland : 22,4 %*-England : 35,1 % - Belgium : 42,0 % - Germany :44,2 % -The Netherlands : 64,8 % - Denmark :50,0 % - Norway : 60,0 % - Sweden : 66,6 %(!) - Austria : 85,2 % (!) -
    Finland : 50,0 % -Balts+Estonians (low numbers?) : 40,0 % -
    Czechs : 50,0 % (!) -Ukraina : 36,0 % - Poland : 34,8 % - Belarus :10,0 % - Slovakia : 8,6 % - Hungary : 20,0 %
    Italy : 10,8 % -Spain : 11,5 %- Portugal : 9,3 %
    my ones : U106/M269,surely upon littler samples, but more regional, just for info :
    North-England : 31,8 %- Central England : 30,6 % & 50,0 % -Northwest-England : 27,1 % - East-England : 40,1 %- East-Anglia : 41,1 % - Southeast-England : 34,1 %- Southwest-England : 32,4 % & 31,6 %-Northeast-Ireland : 15,7 % - North-Ireland (+ Donegal?) :4,7 % - East-Ireland : 0,0 % (?) - Southeast-Ireland :7,5 % & 9,9 % - Southwest-Ireland : 5,4 % &3,9 %
    Northwest Scotland:9,5 %- East-Northeast Scotland : 7,5 % - WestScotland (Lallands ? More?): 12,2 %
    Wales : 11,6 %
    Switz.Northeast alemannic :33,3 % - Switz. Northwest-alemannic : 15,9 % (NearElsass) – Switz. Southeast alemannic:22,2 % - Switz. Southwestalemmanic : 30,0 % -Northwest Switzerland (romance) :6,6 % BUT : 13,5 % L21/S145 !
    Denmark : too lowsamples, all Jutland : respectively : 37,5 % &44,4 % & 60,0 % …
    The Netherlands : 69,5 %- North Germany : 57,1 % - West Germany : 44,4 %
    West Flanders : 52,1 %- East Flanders : 40,9 % - Antwerpe : 38,2 % -N-E Äntwerpe :34,4 % - Limburg : 38,1 % -North-Brabant (germanic) : 61,7 % - South-Brabant(walloon) : 38,4 %
    Romania : 9,9 % -Hungary : 17,2 % - Greece : 0,0 % (! BUT Creta :5,8 %) - Albania : 4,3 % - Macedonia : 0,0 (!) -Croatia : 7,0 % - Serbia : 18,6 %-Montenegro :0,0 % - Bosnia : 0,0 % - Bulgaria : 16,2 %(!) - Czechia : 26,1 % - Slovakia : 24,5 %(closer between them here) –West Ukraina : 38,5 %- Center Ukraina : 17,7 % - Belarus:33,3 % &29,7 % (closer to West Ukraina, then)-
    South-Sweden nly 20,6 % … Estonia : 59,3 % - Finland :47,6 % - Poland : 32,2 % - North Russia:22,4 %Center Russia 19,3 % South Russia 30,3 %
    Spain Valencia (East) :2,0 % - North Italy 13,4 % - South Italy 3,7 % (surelyexceptions around West Sicilia and Campobasso...)
    concerningAustria don't find my %, but I remember it was around the66,6 % close to The Netherlands, so not so higheven if very high...Anerror in FireHaired statesconcerning the totalof Y-R1b ?: Maciamogives 32 % -I know Tyrol gives higher %s of U106 but...
    Whatever the samples, we seethat the Y-R1b-U106 ratio's cline within Y-R1b is finally moreNorthern/Southern (except Austria) than Western/Eastern even if indetails things are a bit more complicated : and we see theCeltic lands are not the strongest as a whole, compared not only togermanic regions but also to other ethnic groups. It's confirmed inthe Benelux as a whole, in France, in Iberia (the Northwest andWestern lands have more than the Southeast ones)
    The southern Sweden % isvery low : sample size ? + upstream SNPs ? :don't forget M269's in different geographic areas have differentstories : some are ancestors of U106, some others to P312... Isee nothing in all these%s which copuld deny a germanic origin forthe bulk of Y-R1a.


    - surely some subclades ofY-R1b-U106 and Y-I1 had stories different from the story of bulk oftheir ancestral lignage. I don't refuse the thought of some U106 andsome I1 incorporated amon Celts and others at the mergins. By theway, Y-I1 is old in North and some clades could have been inNorth-West before Celts and Germanics, and here I cannot speak of« mergin ». For U106 I think it's at the mergin thatsomeones were incorporated among Celts, Belgae come from Bohemiasurroundings for the most.


    - I was interested by theTomenable hypothesis concerning Hallstatt, U106 and Austria-Bohemia eople (future rich Tumuli) interested in metals who descended therivers network towards the Saale region and the Harz/Thuringen? Verysensible at first sight. Question : is the today frequency ofU106 reflecting this ? And reflecting more ancient stages ?I think Corded reached Saale Thuringen region, almost sure so somekind of Y-R1a (R1a seems more ancient than Y-R1b and than the most-not the whole- of Y-I1 in Norway : see other threads) ;but I suppose Corded came more through East plain than through theBohemian mountains.
    ButU106 ? I think the clear enough cut between it and P312can be explained by an isolation at some stage of the Y-R1b-L11level. Where were the 2 pools ? U106 vs P312 ? ForP312, East of France-Bavaria-Switzerland (future « poor »Tumuli under Unetice influence culturally only) seem good enoughcheck ; for U106, South Bohemia-North Austria could be righttoo, before later moves West-East (Celts) and then East-West(Slavs) : infiltration from the Danube and then the riversnetwork (Elbe and Co); a northwards colonization for metals withThuringen/Saale for target, cutting R1a of Scandinavia off the R1a ofEast... ??? It deserves a knowledge of R1a subclades I have notnow. Austria richness in U106 could be linked to an old Danube cradleas well as to a « bridge head » of Germanics warriorsafter the Volker Wanderungen. Classical anthropology showed theGermanics tribe coming down in Southwest Germany could be distinguishfrom the more meso-brachycephalic people of Pre-Celtic+Celtic origin.Salzburg region is blonder and less brachycephalic than a lot ofSouthern Germany regions : an anterior state or more Germanicscolonizators ? It needs more accurate and precise auDNA for thediverse Austrian regions. I avow I'm not completely convinced bythe U106/Danube connexion as a primal stage ; not isolatedenough, when we know the Danube boulevard leads to Rhine mouth ;I've hard work to explain the still existing opposition in R1b's %safter centuries of moves even if war conquests are not always checkedby important population shifts. I wonder if a more northeasternposition was not the case for U106??? Rhine was more a link atBB's times than a frontier. Spite this it became a kind of frontieror a sort of hurdle at Celtic-Germanic pre-Roman times, at least inits lower part, visible in a « today » bunch of closeisolosses or gradiants in The Netherlands concerning U106 vs P312 ifI rely upon STR's, what could prove the Germanics people did notexterminate all the Celts on their way South. It's true someGermanics tribes were already infiltred among Celtic tribes in oldBelgia at Roman times.


    -Now, my suppositions : As I wrote previously I think R-U106 andI1 were already mixed in Denmark-North Germany before Roman Era. Onlythe respective %s changed, apparently R-U106 dominant more westernly,I1 dominant more easternly. Thuringen and Sax-Anhalt, regionsattracted a lot of tribes of divers horizons at LN-EBA. By the way,the geographical link of this cradle with Hallstatt (more than to LaTène) could prove all Hallstatt at first was not ONLYCeltic, my doubts based upon what was said by more than an ancientarcheologist and historian and antrhopologist. More than aTumuli/Barrows culture existed there in Europe, and the link maybewas not too tight between rich tumuli of Saale regions and the« poorest » tumuli of Bavaria-East France which (theselast ones) could be linked more properly to proto-Celtic culture. LaTène culture showed a great change in hyerarchization andsettlements places after Hallstatt, I see personally as a return to amore ancient situation after absorbtion of new elites not Celtic byforce.
    Iresume ( needed!) : Y-R-U106 among Celts ? Yes, atlight dosis. But Y-I1 too, at light dosis. But for me Germanics attheir daybreak after I-Eanization by R1b (more U106) were already amix of R-U106+I1, centered around Denmark and in a lot of Southernand eastern countries, the 2 are roughly traces of Germanics people,whatever their respective%s.
    Futurewill tell us ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    It is probably there were more I1 in Germany in past, maybe not so long ago.

    There is interesting story for two Serbian men with I1 haplogroup.

    It is proved that they are descendants of Saxons whose ancestors worked as miners in Serbian mines in Middle Age (13th, 14th century).

    Although it is small sample, there is assumption based on evidence of haplogroups that Saxons who came to the Balkans as miners were mostly or dominantly I1 carriers.

    I have an assumption.

    Maybe I1 carriers in Saxon areas in Germany and surrounding were starving due to black death (1346-1671).

    About 1/3 of European population extinct and it can be possible that among them are Saxon I1 carriers.
    It is possible, but there are widespread confusions regarding the term "Saxon", even among Germans. The east-german provinces "Saxony" and Saxony-Anhalt are not the ancestral Saxon land and were only partially settled by Saxons. Even Mecklenburg is certainly more saxon than "Saxony". Especially Erzgebirge mountain in Saxony was populated more by franks and bavarians than saxons.

    The new I1 samples from Görzig are certainly no saxons, they were probably unknown germanic tribes that moved elsewhere. It is also possible that they moved to north-west and their offspring returned later as part of the saxons who had probably much less than 58% I1.

    Another confusion is that outside of Germany germans were called "Saxons" even if they came from franconian, austrian or swabian lands. I'm not sure but many of these "Saxons" from Serbia that you mention might have actually come from any part of Germany. For instance the "Saxons" from Banat in Romania mostly came from the french border and Luxemburg, which was ancestral Franconia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the non european probably didn't come from I1
    I1 has one single ancestor 4700 years old, that time first IE people were allready in Scandinavia
    Even so it would be an unknown I* predecessor of I1. A paleolithic remnant that merged with the coming Indoeuropeans. I1 was the specific clade that benefited from the resulting mix and it expanded like wildfire due to Bronze age technology and weaponry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    The new I1 samples from Görzig are certainly no saxons, they were probably unknown germanic tribes that moved elsewhere. It is also possible that they moved to north-west and their offspring returned later as part of the saxons who had probably much less than 58% I1.
    Saxons or not, definitely some Germanic people were there at that time. I'm not sure, but gathering info from posts, first arrival of Saxons in Saxony is rather unknown. So who knows what was the name of the tribe there by said time.

    Another confusion is that outside of Germany germans were called "Saxons" even if they came from franconian, austrian or swabian lands. I'm not sure but many of these "Saxons" from Serbia that you mention might have actually come from any part of Germany. For instance the "Saxons" from Banat in Romania mostly came from the french border and Luxemburg, which was ancestral Franconia.
    Interesting is the fact that most Slavs refer to Germans as Svabi (Szwaby). It might be the case that at some point they battled Suabs the most of other tirbes, hens such identification of Germans. It is mystery however, when and where the contact happened. Looking at maps of ancient tribes and chronology of their movements, it shouldn't be the case. Suabs have left before Slavs arrived. Go figure.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Saxons or not, definitely some Germanic people were there at that time. I'm not sure, but gathering info from posts, first arrival of Saxons in Saxony is rather unknown. So who knows what was the name of the tribe there by said time.
    The first arrival of Saxons together with other Germans in Saxony happened when it was already slavic, and the "Holy-Roman-Empre/Germany" already existed. The Görzig samples are from 300-400 years before the slavs arrived. I'm not even sure if Görzig later became slavic at all, it looks like it was close to the border.
    [EDIT: Görzig was slavonic: Gorizka]
    In either case they were neither saxons nor slavs for sure.

    Interesting is the fact that most Slavs refer to Germans as Svabi (Szwaby). It might be the case that at some point they battled Suabs the most of other tirbes, hens such identification of Germans. It is mystery however, when and where the contact happened. Looking at maps of ancient tribes and chronology of their movements, it shouldn't be the case. Suabs have left before Slavs arrived. Go figure.
    I'm sure it has nothing directly to do with the original suabian tribe. Those germans who are called Svabi in the Balkans have been moved there by the Habsburg monarchy 200 years ago (Schwabenzug). Actual Svabians (Schwaben) do exist still today in Baden-Württemberg, and they represented only a small fraction of the "Svabi", but they apparently provided the name for all these german migrants. I don't know about Poland though.

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    Svabi ressembles suebi, a group of mobile germanic tribes:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    It is possible, but there are widespread confusions regarding the term "Saxon", even among Germans. The east-german provinces "Saxony" and Saxony-Anhalt are not the ancestral Saxon land and were only partially settled by Saxons. Even Mecklenburg is certainly more saxon than "Saxony". Especially Erzgebirge mountain in Saxony was populated more by franks and bavarians than saxons.

    The new I1 samples from Görzig are certainly no saxons, they were probably unknown germanic tribes that moved elsewhere. It is also possible that they moved to north-west and their offspring returned later as part of the saxons who had probably much less than 58% I1.

    Another confusion is that outside of Germany germans were called "Saxons" even if they came from franconian, austrian or swabian lands. I'm not sure but many of these "Saxons" from Serbia that you mention might have actually come from any part of Germany. For instance the "Saxons" from Banat in Romania mostly came from the french border and Luxemburg, which was ancestral Franconia.
    good precisions

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    from Wikipedia:

    Généralités[modifier | modifier le code]


    Le terme Suèves (latin Suebi, Suabi ou Suevi) fait référence à un groupe germanique, peuple qui vivait jadis dans le nord-est de la Magna Germania sur la mer Baltique. Dans les sources romaines, la mer Baltique est désignée comme Mare Suebicum d'après les Suèves. Le géographe Claude Ptolémée (vers 100, † environ 175) dans sa Géographie. localise à l'emplacement des rivières actuelles Swine et Oder le fleuve Συήβος (Suebos, lat.: Suevus). Ainsi, le nom tribal des Suebi peut se laisser interpréter comme provenant de la zone de peuplement d'origine en tant que «peuple de l'Oder» ou encore le nom de la rivière Suevus comme le nom du fleuve des Suèves.
    Comme l'historien Reinhard Wenskus l'a expliqué, l'apparence et la tradition des Suèves a marqué la perception ethnographique et la description de nombreuses tribus germaniques dans le monde antique avant que cette empreinte ne passe aux tribus gothiques. Beaucoup de tribus germaniques ont fait en sorte de se présenter comme suèves.
    Étymologiquement, le nom des Souabes dérive directement du terme suève. De nombreuses tribus d'ascendance celte et/ou germanique ont été désignées de façon arbitraire par les romains (probablement pour des raisons géostratégiques et politiques), comme étant des tribus suèves à l'époque de Tacite: ainsi, les Marcomans, les Semnons lesHermundures, les Quades et les Lombards, et parfois les Angles1. Sur le plan archéologique, ils se laissent identifier, au plus tôt, dans les Germains de l'Elbe. L'archéologie les désigne comme appartenant à la fois à la culture de Jastorf et à la culture d'Harpstedt1.
    Les sources antiques perdent leur trace au iie siècle avant notre ère avant que ne réapparaisse leur nom dans des sources plus tardives. Ils ont participé aux grandes migrationset pour certains d'entre eux sont parvenus jusqu'à la péninsule Ibérique.

    Tacite, dans la Germanie, 39, témoigne que les Semnons passaient pour le fondement du peuple suève, vetustissimi Sueborum.
    Les Suèves selon César[modifier | modifier le code]

    En 58 av. J.-C., dans une bataille sur le Rhin, César défait les Suèves qui avaient pénétré en Gaule conduits par Arioviste. Dans ses rapports, il conçoit comme Suèves les peuples germaniques habitant à l'est des Ubiens et des Sicambres et indique qu'ils comptaient 100 groupes avec 1 000 hommes capables de combattre, mais qui se seraient retirés, lors de sa traversée du Rhin, vers la forêt de Bacenis (le massif d'Allemagne centrale, qui, selon César sépare les Suèves des Chérusques). Cette localisation est néanmoins considérée comme incertaine. Ils n'auraient pas connu de résidence fixe, mais se seraient déplacés chaque année dans le cadre des campagnes armées. La taille de l'alliance tribale suève est probablement due, dans la majorité des cas, à l'intégration d'autres tribus attirées par la gloire des Suèves à la guerre. Dion Cassius signale dans tous les cas, que « beaucoup d'autres manifestent la prétention d'être Suèves».
    Selon les sources archéologiques, on observe des colonies tout à fait permanentes au nord du Main et le long de celui-ci. De même, les oppida celtiques ont été occupées dans la région peu de temps après l'immigration germaniqune. Ces soi-disant Suèves du Main qui furent en 9/10 av. J.-C. soumis par Drusus, sont d'après les fouilles archéologiques un mélange de peuples germaniques du Rhin-Weser et de peuples germaiques de l'Elbe.
    Les Suèves du Neckar[modifier | modifier le code]

    Selon des inscriptions trouvées, auraient vécu, sous la domination romaine, dans la région de Lopodunum (aujourd'hui Ladenburg) au ier et iie siècles ap. J.-C., les Suèves Nicrenses (Suèves du Neckar). D'après ces peuples suèves, est nommée la Civitas Ulpia Sueborum Nicretum qui se trouve près de Ladenburg. Il s'agit probablement de restes, qui étaient demeurés après l'expulsion de 58 av. J.-C. ou encore de volontaires ou même de réinstallations forcées. Dans une carte routière romaine de l'Antiquité tardive, laTabula Peutingeriana, on trouve également, entre Alamannia et les Burcturi (= Bructères), le nom Suevia, qui est probablement lié aux peuplements des Suèves du Neckar.

    from that we can deduce:
    Suèves/Suebi/Schwaben are the same thing - they were (seemingly) based in East-Germany very early and then this explain why all Germanics are named after their own tribe name by Slavs.
    Powerful as they were, they incorporated other littler tribes (so maybe the compound names we find on some maps) and even , their name was "usurpated" by some more obscure germanic tribes.
    By the way, Zeeland (# sea-land) would have been Zeeuws-land, land of the Suebi: so a stam of this great powerful tribe or group of tribes could have colonized this ancient celtic region too. I 'll try to say more about language if it's of some worth.
    I'm not sure all that could disentangle the question" of supposed Y-I1 Saxons! With so much moves in some centuries among Germanics (dissolution, recomposition) I'm not sure the II/IV/V centuries would have seen so dramatic differences about haplo's in Northern Germany (not the case for Southern germany, been preceltic and Celtic before...
    Franks themselves were numerous, but also incorporated some Belgae and Gauls tribes: they were, like Alamans and Suebi, recomposed big tribes.



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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post

    from that we can deduce:
    Suèves/Suebi/Schwaben are the same thing - they were (seemingly) based in East-Germany very early and then this explain why all Germanics are named after their own tribe name by Slavs.
    They were the same thing 1500 years ago, but concerning the Balkans, their name has a much more recent story. They pronounce it "Shvabi", which hints to the more recent sound shift from 'S' to 'Sh'.

    I'm still not so sure the ancient Suebi explains Germans being called Svabi by the other Slavs. When Slavs arrived in east Germany and Poland they found empty land in the north, and the Thuringian kingdom in the south, which they destroyed. At that time the Suebi already had left east Germany. It is possible that some Slavs fought the Suebi further south. In any case 'Nemci' was the most common slavic name for Germans or Germanics.

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    The new I1 samples from Görzig are certainly no saxons
    Probably Thuringians, Northern Suebi or Cherusci.BTW - Görzig is in Kreis Anhalt-Bitterfeld. After the Migration Period, this area was settled by Slavs, who built the stronghold of Ciervisti in that region (modern Zerbst).So we are looking at Pre-Slavic DNA from region which later became Slavic (even though very close to the western borderland of Slavic lands).
    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et1SkVldiHI

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post



    I'm sure it has nothing directly to do with the original suabian tribe. Those germans who are called Svabi in the Balkans have been moved there by the Habsburg monarchy 200 years ago (Schwabenzug). Actual Svabians (Schwaben) do exist still today in Baden-Württemberg, and they represented only a small fraction of the "Svabi", but they apparently provided the name for all these german migrants. I don't know about Poland though.
    I think that the one of the first names used for Germans and maybe wider populations near them in Slavic language is "Nemac" (murmuring people) from Nem (mute) which still dominate in the Slavic languages,Germany is called "Nemacka" from the same name,the "Roman name" Germania,Germans is used also.
    Švaba is perhaps later term and is derived from the Suebi tribe,yes moved by the Habsburg monarchy in Balkans,still denote a German but is not used that much.
    For the Franks older term is Fruzi.
    Speaking here about the South-Slavic languages and people.

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    the ratio U106/totalR1b-M269 :Czechs : 50,0 % (!)
    Myres et al. had this data for Czech Republic:L23(xM412) -------------- 0,057 (= 5,7%)S116*(xM529xU152) ---- 0,057 (= 5,7%)U106(xU198) ----------- 0,057 (= 5,7%)U152 ---------------------- 0,034 (= 3,4%)M529(xM222) ------------ 0,011 (= 1,1%)R1b-M269 all ------------------ 0,218 (= 21,8%)Which means that U106 is only 26,1% of M269.

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    2 great germanic regions seem sharing a phonetic tendancy: NO diphtonging of long mid-germanic /I:/: Scandinavia, a lot of places in East Germany, and Zeeland/Flanders, Elsass Schwaben-Switzerland (these 3 last ones classified 'alemannic'. It concerns also long germanic /U:/ in some way. But considering vowels are as a rule less solid than consonnants/stops and that modern traits can be born late enough I 've doubt about the usefulness of this observation; and I think the western phenomenon is more related to remnants of Celtic substrata than to specific old Germanics tribes (Celts diphtonged long /E:/, almost never /I:/ if I'm right).
    concerning Y-I1 and its ancestors in North-central Europe, a Russian scientist (Shtrunov) thought some Y-I's (I1 + maybe North-East Y-I2a2) could have been the carriers of the pre-I-Ean and pre-Finnic strata in Languages of Saami and Finland... I have not the knowledge to weight his affirmation.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Other terms used in the medieval Slavic languages in Balkans prior for the Saxons is "Sasi" they were mostly working as miners in mine industry.
    Couple toponyms still survive from their name,the village of Sase, Srebrenica, and the Saška reka was named after the community,one of today mines in R. Macedonia is called Sasa,probably connected to this name but is much later name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    The first arrival of Saxons together with other Germans in Saxony happened when it was already slavic, and the "Holy-Roman-Empre/Germany" already existed. The Görzig samples are from 300-400 years before the slavs arrived. I'm not even sure if Görzig later became slavic at all, it looks like it was close to the border.
    You mean the first documented movement.




    I'm sure it has nothing directly to do with the original suabian tribe. Those germans who are called Svabi in the Balkans have been moved there by the Habsburg monarchy 200 years ago (Schwabenzug). Actual Svabians (Schwaben) do exist still today in Baden-Württemberg, and they represented only a small fraction of the "Svabi", but they apparently provided the name for all these german migrants. I don't know about Poland though.
    I beg to differ on this one. Svab is panslavic word, therefore must have been coined before expansion. Also, unlike Nemec, it is used in derogatory form. I'm telling you, something bad had happened between Svabians and Slavs. Part of unknown history I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You mean the first documented movement.




    I beg to differ on this one. Svab is panslavic word, therefore must have been coined before expansion. Also, unlike Nemec, it is used in derogatory form. I'm telling you, something bad had happened between Svabians and Slavs. Part of unknown history I guess.
    Svab is indeed used in derogatory form,but i think this had to do with ww2,in case of the Balkans at least the Germans back then and the soldiers were called Svabe mostly by Partisans,like Jerry in English.Other than that has no Slavic etymology neither i see something derogatory in it,by etymology Nemec(mute) would be kind of derogatory but we don't expirience it in that sense,is just a said word,no one think on it's etymology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Svab is indeed used in derogatory form,but i think this had to do with ww2,in case of the Balkans at least the Germans back then and the soldiers were called Svabe mostly by Partisans,like Jerry in English.Other than that has no Slavic etymology neither i see something derogatory in it,by etymology Nemec(mute) would be kind of derogatory but we don't expirience it in that sense,is just a said word,no one think on it's etymology.
    WW2 would seem like an explanation, but I think it is not. For instance, why would Serbs and Poles, and probably other Slavs, call all Germans taking part in the war, by the name of one German region? Too coincidental to happen. I'm sure Germans from Schwaben were not particularly more cruel than others to get any distinction.
    I think it was vice versa, Germans were called Svabi, because it was already a derogatory term. If we have one, we'll use it, instead of inventing a new one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Other terms used in the medieval Slavic languages in Balkans prior for the Saxons is "Sasi" they were mostly working as miners in mine industry.
    Couple toponyms still survive from their name,the village of Sase, Srebrenica, and the Saška reka was named after the community,one of today mines in R. Macedonia is called Sasa,probably connected to this name but is much later name.
    There are more, for example in Serbia Šaška reka (Shashka river) near Zajecar, village Sase near Raška (Rashka), etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    They were the same thing 1500 years ago, but concerning the Balkans, their name has a much more recent story. They pronounce it "Shvabi", which hints to the more recent sound shift from 'S' to 'Sh'.

    I'm still not so sure the ancient Suebi explains Germans being called Svabi by the other Slavs. When Slavs arrived in east Germany and Poland they found empty land in the north, and the Thuringian kingdom in the south, which they destroyed. At that time the Suebi already had left east Germany. It is possible that some Slavs fought the Suebi further south. In any case 'Nemci' was the most common slavic name for Germans or Germanics.

    Thanks El Horsto - I was just proposing a possible explanation. That said, approximations and assimilations are very common concerning ethnies or tribes names, in oral as in written culture. "Helvetes" and Swiss, "Dutch" for (Netherlanders) whose name would rather concern Germans, "Allemand" for German too, "Saxons" for Germans of Romania and so on... mix of scale, of places, of chronology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Myres et al. had this data for Czech Republic:L23(xM412) -------------- 0,057 (= 5,7%)S116*(xM529xU152) ---- 0,057 (= 5,7%)U106(xU198) ----------- 0,057 (= 5,7%)U152 ---------------------- 0,034 (= 3,4%)M529(xM222) ------------ 0,011 (= 1,1%)R1b-M269 all ------------------ 0,218 (= 21,8%)Which means that U106 is only 26,1% of M269.

    OK: it confirms my impressions. 50% was the ratio proposed by FireHaired, and it seemed too high for me; surely a technical error or a writing error: I added other ratios (in italic inclined letters) which fit your own ones for Czechs.

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    As for Ostsiedlung, I've recently bought two books (they are in Polish, but have also abstracts in English so I will cite English titles):

    - D. Leśniewska, "German Colonization and Colonization on the German Law in Medieval Bohemia & Moravia in the Light of Historiography"
    - Jan M. Piskorski, "The Rural Colonization of Western Pomerania in the 13th Century and at the Beginning of the 14th Century..." *

    These books give interesting details which may give hints as to genetic structure of modern regional populations as well.

    For example Piskorski writes, that the number of German settlers in the island of Rügen was very low.

    So modern inhabitants of Rügen should be of mostly Polabian Slavic descend. It would be nice to collect DNA there.

    * German title is: "Die Ländliche Kolonisation Pommerns im 13. und in den Anfängen des 14. Jahrhunderts auf dem Hintergrund der Siedlungsvorgänge im Mittelalterlichen Europa".
    Last edited by Tomenable; 23-04-16 at 01:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Our 12 Y-DNA samples discussed in this thread are from Görzig, but they are from the 300s-450s AD, so they pre-date the depopulation and the Slavic expansion, which took place during the 450s-600s AD in this region:
    Now I get how you think.

    But I think, that I1 rather increase in number in last 1700 years than deline, and such depopulation, whereever it had place in germanic speaking world, was in favor of I1. I1 at that time was totally assimilated, so no one cared, which people are settled where and how many children they had. The spread of I1 was unseeable and was systematicaly increasing during millenia, not only in Scandinavia but also in the continent. More than that, many other lineages went away with germanic tribes invading the Empire, and if more I1 left in place, then this clade had batter chances to be more spreading. This is my guess, and I have suspected it to be correct :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Germanic languages are known to have a higher percentage of non-indoeuropean words compared to the surrounding language families.
    This is already non actual view. Most of the words can be easly explained on IE basis. Btw, some of the words, which were presented in this 1/3 are several times similar to slavic words, so, no problem. Of course some words can be inherited from locals, but some can be also self invented by Germans or twisted so much, that IE root is not recognizable - and in the case of these languages is very possible :)


    A very high I1 % would make a lot of sense for the original Germanic language speakers.
    But becasue of the age, he can be afterIE not preIE :)
    Women also can influenced language, even more,
    especially, that they are talking more and even to much

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    As for Ostsiedlung, I've recently bought two books (they are in Polish, but have also abstracts in English so I will cite English titles):

    - D. Leśniewska, "German Colonization and Colonization on the German Law in Medieval Bohemia & Moravia in the Light of Historiography"
    - Jan M. Piskorski, "The Rural Colonization of Western Pomerania in the 13th Century and at the Beginning of the 14th Century..." *

    These books give interesting details which may give hints as to genetic structure of modern regional populations as well.

    For example Piskorski writes, that the number of German settlers in the island of Rügen was very low.

    So modern inhabitants of Rügen should be of mostly Polabian Slavic descend. It would be nice to collect DNA there.

    * German title is: "Die Ländliche Kolonisation Pommerns im 13. und in den Anfängen des 14. Jahrhunderts auf dem Hintergrund der Siedlungsvorgänge im Mittelalterlichen Europa".
    If German colleagues are interested - here is the table of contents in German (and references to German summary):

    Table of Contents



    German Summary



    And Extended Table of Contents from the other book:












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