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Thread: Y-DNA from Germany in the 300s-400s AD shows 58% frequency of I1 and not much R1b

  1. #101
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
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    Ethnic group
    more celtic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^ Some subclades of U106 could be Non-Germanic.

    Because U106 as a whole is odler than PGmc I think.
    Eveyone can say that concerning every Y-haplo (Y-I1 itself!), but my global reasoning is still of worth - I don't exclude some U106 for Belgae by instance, but not the bulk of them (BTW some recent thoughts considers the Belgae area as a region of mixed tribes of diverse origins, some Celtic, other Germanic and others old-IE close to meta-Italics;
    but it seems to me that the today U106 distribution as a whole matches very well Germanics areas -

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    U106/DF98/S4004
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Guys don't forget that according to Dr. Iain McDonald (who is the expert on the DF98 subclade aka King's cluster of U106!!) that U106 overall appears to split into a Northern or "more Germanic" L48 and sub groups and a southern Z156 and U198 group... and we also found two Z156ers (also positive for Z304-307 - and 3drif-16 was DF96+ and 6drif-3 was DF98+ and I match him as several more SNPs!) among the Driffield Terrace guys - 3drif-16 being dated to a bit earlier I think around 100-200AD and 6drif-3 around 200-300ish AD and most likely either Gladiators or auxiliary soldiers - I'm sure you have heard the story before!). This is the best tested ancient U106 to date that I know of... and interesting they are both Z156 and in a grave yard dated to before the "Germanics" arrived at the Isles (well they could have arrived from the Rhine early in the AD with the Romans etc) - at least by "tradition" though the real history will probably be a bit different! Still could have been people from the North who came south and the Romans picked them up... as DF98 and DF96 is quite common in modern pops along the Rhine... but Dr. Iain thinks there is a chance those Z156 guys were in the Isles B.C. times... still we need more aDNA from along the Rhine and the B.C. Isles etc... to see what is and isn't found in certain time periods etc!

    Cheers!

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    U106/DF98/S4004
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    Also we probably just need more testing in the East for U106...

  4. #104
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    U106/DF98/S4004
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Dr. Iain's DF98 pdf file if you haven't seen it yet... he breaks down a lot of the subgroups here! ok I can't post links yet as I'm too new so google Iain McDonald's king's cluster pdf... I'd post the link, but it wont' let me. Loads of info on the DF98 group under U106 etc.

  5. #105
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    Natgeo's information about I1 is a little different than what I see on this site. It says I1 is 18% in germany not 16%, England 16 not 14. And that Norway has the highest % at 45. And in Finland it's 35% not 28.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    What Tomenable omitted from his original post was that the I1 haplotypes were all the same, or at least most were, making the sample quite skewed and not likely a true representation of Germany. In other words, these I1's were related males, most likely from the same family, or an extended family. Don't believe me? Look them up on YHRD where they were sourced from.

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    Well how can any of these ancient remains ever be a true representation of a large territory? How many samples do you need 1000's? A genocide mass grave? Huge casualties of some natural disaster? There were no cemeteries back then, maybe were but small ones and from one family or small tribe.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    12 samples from Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt) dated to the 300s-400s AD, of whom 7 or 8 were I1:

    I1 --------------------------------------------------------- 7 (~58%)
    I (likely I2 but can be some Russian clade of I1) ---- 1 (~8%)
    R1b ------------------------------------------------------- 1 (~8%)
    R1 (most likely R1a, or some eastern R1b) ----------- 1 (~8%)
    R1 (likely R1b but can be R1a-Z284 or L664) -------- 2 (~17%)


    Source (see Table 3. on page 6 out of 7): LINK

    Location of Görzig:



    This shows that Ancient Germania was dominated by I1, not by R1b like today.

    In this sample I1 is between 58% and 67%, while in modern Germany just 16%.


    ==========================

    R1b came to dominate what is now Germany only as the result of Frankish conquest:

    Here is my hypothesis:

    1) Frankish realm = R1b majority; Germanic tribes between Rhine and Elbe, including Saxons = I1 / I majority:



    The extent of the Frankish realm in the 5th century and its early expansion:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJHEXQdtt6Q



    2) Franks expand into Pagan Saxons, Thuringians and others; with Frankish authority come many R1b settlers:



    3) Further expansion of East Francia - or Germany as it is now called - into Slavic lands between Elbe and Oder:



    Settlers who expanded into lands between Rhine and Oder came mostly from these areas:



    "Ostsiedlung" settlers came from areas which are today the Netherlands, Belgium, and the French-German borderland. Most of them spoke West Germanic dialects, but many also spoke Romance (e.g. Walloons). Ashkenazi Jews were part of that too.

    Many came from westernmost parts of modern Germany (the Rhineland). Many also came from Friesland (Frisia).

    Modern situation (numerically dominant haplogroup by country):

    Of course details are wrong in this map (for example, the most numerous hg in Sardinia is in fact I2):

    Interesting survey Tomenable, I just discovered it.

    Tumulus: R1b boost in NW Europe
    My educated guess is that R1b 106 was a product of the people from Tumulus culture. This Tumulus culture had a major impact in Northwestern Europe. About 1600 BC archeologist found a major shift. During the whole Bronze Age there were very close ties between central Europe and the Nordics. The result was the Elp culture, that culture was for example responsible for the start of the use of longhouses, until the twentieth century very common in large parts of NW Europe.

    Prof Leendert Kooijmans stated already in 1998:
    ''The northern Netherlands is part of the northern group (NW Germany and Denmark) especially of the Sögeler Kreis characterized by a number of distinctive men's graves. The Drouwen grave is the best known Dutch example. It's remarkable that the Elp culture has never been presented as the immigration of a new group of people. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. The disappearance of beakers, the appearance of the Sögel men's graves with the first 'swords', among other things, the fully extended burial posture, under barrows; all the factors have been reason enough in the past to conclude that the Elp culture represented an immigration of Sögel warriors."

    These people/warriors from central Europe brought R1b-U106/S21 to the NW (North Dutch, NW Germany, Denmark). The connection and networks between the Nordic Bronze Age and Central Europe (Hungary etc) were as said very close. These R1b lineages (by dominating warriors!?) mixed in the Bronze and Iron Age with the already settled I people.

    In nowadays Friesland there was a kind of bottleneck effect in the third century AD, so this may be has stimulated the exorbitant high R1b U106/S21?

    La Tene Hallstatt Celtic not Gemanic
    The later on "(proto) Celtic" La Tene and Hallstatt did reach the (later called) Frankish and Alemanni territory (South and Western Germany) and of course nowadays Southern Netherlands (Limburg/Brabant) Belgium, France, British Isles. It left a genetic footprint in these area's. But La Tene/Hallstatt, although most probably influenced the culture and materials of the North and West Germans, but didn't left a major genetic footprint in these areas!

    Jastorf/Harpstedt-Nienburg: Germanic
    In stead of La Tene and Hallstatt, in NW Europe the Jastorf and the Harpstedt-Nienburg cultures developed. These were clearly (proto) Germanic cultures. Of course in these time R1b U106/S21was already settled.

    All plausible or....?
    Last edited by Northener; 10-05-17 at 09:55.

  9. #109
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z140 *Y6910
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    Interesting, very...
    I encountered another map by Maciamo Hay. Phylogenetic Tree of
    I1 Z140 Last updated: May 2017. According to that map I1 Z140 had *Y6910 of Nordic Bronze Age that split into A11341 and Y6885 both went to Britain and Ireland.
    I am *Y6910 so, I am selfish here, my ancestors ( last name ) came from Leipzig area that would be in agreement of the statement that Ancient Germania was populated by I1 Haplogroup.
    I would like to find out where did
    I1 Z140 *Y6910 originate in Ancient Germania?
    I am negative on both A11341 and Y6885, that means my ancestors didn't go to Britain or Ireland, even though they had to be 'relatives'...
    I can't post a map, I guess I'm not 'important' enough. It's Eupedia map by Maciamo Hay.
    Last edited by Sonnenburg; 10-05-17 at 01:16. Reason: Adding information

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Guys don't forget that according to Dr. Iain McDonald (who is the expert on the DF98 subclade aka King's cluster of U106!!) that U106 overall appears to split into a Northern or "more Germanic" L48 and sub groups and a southern Z156 and U198 group... and we also found two Z156ers (also positive for Z304-307 - and 3drif-16 was DF96+ and 6drif-3 was DF98+ and I match him as several more SNPs!) among the Driffield Terrace guys - 3drif-16 being dated to a bit earlier I think around 100-200AD and 6drif-3 around 200-300ish AD and most likely either Gladiators or auxiliary soldiers - I'm sure you have heard the story before!). This is the best tested ancient U106 to date that I know of... and interesting they are both Z156 and in a grave yard dated to before the "Germanics" arrived at the Isles (well they could have arrived from the Rhine early in the AD with the Romans etc) - at least by "tradition" though the real history will probably be a bit different! Still could have been people from the North who came south and the Romans picked them up... as DF98 and DF96 is quite common in modern pops along the Rhine... but Dr. Iain thinks there is a chance those Z156 guys were in the Isles B.C. times... still we need more aDNA from along the Rhine and the B.C. Isles etc... to see what is and isn't found in certain time periods etc!

    Cheers!
    Interesting, my subclade (R-L1) is downstream Z156(it is downstream DF96 though not DF98). My direct paternal ancestry goes back to Ireland which would make it seem like it predated the arrival of Germanic migrations to the British Isles... but then again my surname arrived in Ireland with the Cambro-Normans who probably carried R1b-U106. Many of the others in Ireland with R-L1 also have Norman surnames.

    Here is the the number of people with R-L1 across Europe according to the map on the FTDNA project page for R-L1-
    England and Scotland:32
    Germany:11
    Ireland and Northern Ireland:9
    Finland:4
    Sweden:2
    Hungary:2
    Norway:1
    Belgium:1
    Ukraine:1
    France:1


    Here is how the FTDNA project group for R-L1 describes it's origin-
    "Known Origins of R-L1/S26 (formerly known as null439s) are mainly in the south and central parts of England. However, there are a number of R-L1/S26's with origins in Germany, one in Norway, one in Finland, and one in northwest Spain. This tends to indicate the origin of the R-L1/S26's was somewhere in northwest Europe, and that R-L1/S26 came mainly to Britain with various Germanic migrations (pre-Roman, Anglo-Saxon, and Viking)."

    Here's a 2015 report from McDonald about R1b-u106 that gives some numbers and shares his thoughts
    http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...15-revised.pdf

    To your point about DF98 being pre-germanic Dr.McDonald describes DF98 in the UK as Anglo-Saxon and Norman. Z156 Itself is absent from Denmark and Sweden(Although it's found in Norway and Finland) but McDonald comments that it's probably because many people have not done deeper testing there and the samples are fairly small(24 and 64). There is a large percentage of it in Germany, Austria/Hungary, France, Belgium, Poland but none in Switzerland and little in the Netherlands. Again the samples size isnt optimal, only in Germany, Scotland, Ireland and England do the number of samples top 100 and in important places like Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Belgium and Switzerland the sample size of R1b-u106 tested for subclades is less than 50 in each country.

    R-L1 makes up a strangely high percentage of the population of R1b-U106 in Finland(all the Z156 in Finland is R-L1) and Ukraine.(Probably due to under coverage)

    In the UK R-L1 peaks in Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland but it's also present in high numbers all over the island: notably Devon, Wiltshire, Derbyshire, Norfolk/Suffolk, Northumberland/Durham and North East Scotland. It's completely absent in Wales and Munster(Ireland). He doesn't indicate where he believes it originated from. I believe that R-L1 came from Germanic migrations to the British Isles, as for other subclades downstream DF96 and DF98 I'm not completely sure.

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    So it seems that Iron Age Poland was also 50% (!) I1-M253?:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post513761

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So it seems that Iron Age Poland was also 50% (!) I1-M253?:
    Come on! Dont make a sensation from one
    family village enlarging it on whole country.

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    Has there been any word on the deeper I1 subclades of these Görzig samples? If they are indeed one family unit then perhaps we can get a better coverage of the Y SNPS by substituting missing calls with one another.
    Administrator of the Young Family Project
    Genetic genealogy enthusiast

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    In my view at that time the different haplogroups have not mixed togather very well because the society were very tribal! so a town next to this location could have been say 70% R1b or I2 or R1a for that matter, rates of 45% for I1 in todays scandinavia is not uncommon so maybe because of small sample size or a I1 heavy danish immigrant group is responsible for the high percentages in this specific area. so when the tribes mixed togather we have a very uniform rates today which was not the case in newly colonized region of germany at that time.Infact I2a2 is even today higher in this region if you see the maps! In my view its a founder-effect.

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    I would be pleased to know which are the more upstream vs more downstream among these Y-R1b subclades, along the Rhine? Is there kind of a N-S cline? In which direction? It's important concerning the geographic origin of U106 in Austria (from East? ancient? Or from North, more recent?) and its story among other Y-R1b clade.

    @Promenades
    R-L1 if regional distributions are confirmed, seems rather germanic if I rely on its quasi absence in Munster and Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    12 samples from Görzig (Saxony-Anhalt) dated to the 300s-400s AD, of whom 7 or 8 were I1:

    I1 --------------------------------------------------------- 7 (~58%)
    I (likely I2 but can be some Russian clade of I1) ---- 1 (~8%)
    R1b ------------------------------------------------------- 1 (~8%)
    R1 (most likely R1a, or some eastern R1b) ----------- 1 (~8%)
    R1 (likely R1b but can be R1a-Z284 or L664) -------- 2 (~17%)


    Source (see Table 3. on page 6 out of 7): LINK

    Location of Görzig:



    This shows that Ancient Germania was dominated by I1, not by R1b like today.

    In this sample I1 is between 58% and 67%, while in modern Germany just 16%.


    =
    That's a very good overview Tomenable. But if we want to find the key for the spread of R1b (U106) I think we can better look in another time and space.

    The only reasonable candidate for the biggest spread of R1b (U106/S21) in Northwestern Europe is the Barbed Wire annex Elp culture. This was also the beginning of the Bronze Age in that area.


    The push came from the Steppe, from the Unetice culture, the central European Hungarian/Moravian room. The so called Sögel-Wohlde warriors (derived from the Unetice culture) were the initiators of the Bronze age in Northwest Europe. They had an extended network reaching from England, Northern Netherlands, Northwest Germany, Southern Scandinavia even into their Moravian/Hungarian heartland. They triggered the Nordic Bronze Age.


    If we want to make a change to solve this case (=key to the R1b spread in NW Europe) we must probably organize a crowd funding for a DNA test for one of of those "warriors" namely the so called "chieftain of Drouwen", here is his tumulus grave:



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    Ok, my 2 cents, why does 23 and me humble Irish and British together? They shouldn't have completely similar DNA because English wouldn't have penetrated more than N Ireland. Is it a possible concept that R1bU106 was mixed with Celts before the Anglo-Saxons invaded England? After all the Belgae which give name to modern Belgium were a Celtic tribe.

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    *jumble Irish not humble*

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    Is it possible an earlier branch of R1b U106 came to Britain before Anglo - Saxon
    Which basically means that SOME Celts and Germans were indistinguishable genetically. I say fuk ya!

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    Does someone have a link to a pin map showing location of ancient DNA only? I think the heat maps are great, but I would also like to see one of just the locations of the various DNA recovery so I can wrap my mind around what you are talking about.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheal View Post
    Does someone have a link to a pin map showing location of ancient DNA only? I think the heat maps are great, but I would also like to see one of just the locations of the various DNA recovery so I can wrap my mind around what you are talking about.
    Maybe this helps

    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map.../46.073/11.777

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    Thank you IronSide!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ironside,

    Thanks for the map. I'm going to make a sticky of it in the ancient dna section.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  24. #124
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    It's cool isn't it? and it gets updated whenever a new study reports something new.

  25. #125
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Pat-U106-H-e1a4b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5a1b

    Ethnic group
    a true mutt
    Country: USA - Illinois



    I think it's great. I would like to make a slide show of the DNA that shows the progression of Y and mt (of course of those known). I suppose I'll need to quit my job to have time to do it.

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