Interpretome? What does this mean?

[Thorbjorn]

I found the http://esquilax.stanford.edu/#pca link in one of the threads here and thought I'd play around with it. I used the HGDP data source and the 1,000, 10,000 and 100,000 SNPS. The picture below is the 100,000 SNPs. Pardon my ignorance, since I'm still learning about this, but what is the Interpretome chart telling me compared to 23andMe?

23andMe shows my Ancestry Composition as (yDNA hg T, mtDNA hg HV4):
European 86.5%
Southern European 81.4%
Italian 70.8%
Balkan 0.2%
Broadly Southern European 10.4%
Northwestern European 1.4%
Broadly Northwestern European 1.4%
Ashkenazi 0.1%
Broadly European 3.6%
Middle Eastern & North African 12.9%
Middle Eastern 10.7%
North African 1.1%
Broadly Middle Eastern & North African 1.2%

The picture opens larger.


chart 1.jpg

[Sile]

Where are your ancestors from in Italy?

You have a lot of Italian ( 70% ) to be North-Italian.............every North-italian I have seen in 23andme has no more than 35% of Italian.

[Thorbjorn]

Right? I thought so too. Culturally we're (my family) Italian/Sicilian-American through and through.

My father's family was from Sicily, Collesano in Palermo Province. I found ancestor names (3-4x great-grandparents back to late 1700s) from Caltanissetta and Agrigento, who apparently moved to Collesano.

My mother's family was from Maddaloni in Caserta Province, Campania Region. I don't have anything before my maternal great-grandparents, no paper trail or anything.

The French and Russian indicators seem to be preposterously high. Is it possible that my Italian ancestors trickled down from those regions of Europe (also assuming European Russia)? I did a couple of Gedmatch tests that show (I did others that are pretty close):

Eurogenes K13 Admixture Proportions
North Atlantic 20.52%
Baltic 6.74%
West Med 21.62%
West Asian 12.74%
East Med 30.66%


Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Admixture Proportions
North Sea 9.33%
Atlantic 16.77%
Baltic 2.81%
West Med 18.09%
West Asian 12.72%
East Med 29.52%

I'm thinking my Sicilian half is the East Med and Middle Eastern & North African, (the T yDNA being Phoenician/Carthage, SW Asia, NE Africa?). I think it's my maternal side that is up for grabs as to where they came from.I'm really intrigued by all this and am looking to discover just who all those peoples were that made me.

Thanks for any insights you or anyone else may have.

[Auld Reekie]

Right? I thought so too. Culturally we're (my family) Italian/Sicilian-American through and through.

My father's family was from Sicily, Collesano in Palermo Province. I found ancestor names (3-4x great-grandparents back to late 1700s) from Caltanissetta and Agrigento, who apparently moved to Collesano.

My mother's family was from Maddaloni in Caserta Province, Campania Region. I don't have anything before my maternal great-grandparents, no paper trail or anything.

The French and Russian indicators seem to be preposterously high. Is it possible that my Italian ancestors trickled down from those regions of Europe (also assuming European Russia)? I did a couple of Gedmatch tests that show (I did others that are pretty close):

Eurogenes K13 Admixture Proportions
North Atlantic 20.52%
Baltic 6.74%
West Med 21.62%
West Asian 12.74%
East Med 30.66%


Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Admixture Proportions
North Sea 9.33%
Atlantic 16.77%
Baltic 2.81%
West Med 18.09%
West Asian 12.72%
East Med 29.52%

I'm thinking my Sicilian half is the East Med and Middle Eastern & North African, (the T yDNA being Phoenician/Carthage, SW Asia, NE Africa?). I think it's my maternal side that is up for grabs as to where they came from.I'm really intrigued by all this and am looking to discover just who all those peoples were that made me.

Thanks for any insights you or anyone else may have.

My mother's family is from Northern Lombardy near the Swiss Border, Ferrazzano in Molise and Atripalda in Campania. I tested her with Ancestry. Her results are Europe: Italy/Greece 73%, Great Britain 4%, Scandinavia 3%, Europe East 3%, European Jewish 3%, Europe West <1%, West Asia: Middle East 9%, Caucasus 4%.

Eurogenes K13 Admixture
North Atlantic 23.40
Baltic 9.95
West Med 21.05
West Asian 11.79
East Med 25.85
Red Sea 6.23
Siberian .99
Amerindian 0.71

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Admixture
North Sea 13.37
Atlantic 18.53
Baltic 6.70
Eastern Euro 1.88
West Med 16.81
West Asian 12.87
East Med 22.33
Red Sea 6.41
Siberian 0.65
Amerindian 0.45
I know her family are from different regions than yours but it's something to look at.

[Angela]

All of these programs are different. I'm not very familiar with Interpretome.

At 23andme the "Italian" score is on a cline. The scores in the far north that I've seen are in the 30's. I share with Lombards and Piemontesi who score around 45%. By the time you get to the Romagna, it's up to the mid-50s. The 100% Tuscans get in the high 60s and it goes up from there.

Part of that is because, like all these programs, the results are dependent on the reference samples. The 23andme reference panel is heavily weighted toward southern Italians and Sicilians, usually Italian Americans who have tested. There are a few northern Italians who have tested, but very few. In terms of academic samples, they only have the 8 people from the Bergamo sample. If a northern Italian doesn't match them or the southern Italians very well, 23andme is going to call those alleles "Southern European".

I'll give you an example, a Lombard:

Italian: 45
Broadly Southern European: 23
Iberian: 4
Balkan: 1

French: 4
British/Irish: 3
Broadly Northwestern European: 22

Broadly European: 7

If 23andme had enough representative samples, these "broad" categories would disappear, and, in my opinion, a lot of that "broadly Southern European" would become "Italian".

I don't think, btw, that this covers only movements within the last 500 years. I think it's more likely reaching back to perhaps as far as about 400 BC and the Gauls.

[Thorbjorn]

My mother's family is from Northern Lombardy near the Swiss Border, Ferrazzano in Molise and Atripalda in Campania. I tested her with Ancestry. Her results are Europe: Italy/Greece 73%, Great Britain 4%, Scandinavia 3%, Europe East 3%, European Jewish 3%, Europe West <1%, West Asia: Middle East 9%, Caucasus 4%.

Eurogenes K13 Admixture
North Atlantic 23.40
Baltic 9.95
West Med 21.05
West Asian 11.79
East Med 25.85
Red Sea 6.23
Siberian .99
Amerindian 0.71

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Admixture
North Sea 13.37
Atlantic 18.53
Baltic 6.70
Eastern Euro 1.88
West Med 16.81
West Asian 12.87
East Med 22.33
Red Sea 6.41
Siberian 0.65
Amerindian 0.45
I know her family are from different regions than yours but it's something to look at.

Wow, that's pretty interesting that she's definitely from the north, and her numbers are pretty close to mine. I'm pretty sure my paternal side lived in Sicily for centuries, but I don't know about my maternal side.

[Thorbjorn]

... At 23andme the "Italian" score is on a cline. ...

Part of that is because, like all these programs, the results are dependent on the reference samples. The 23andme reference panel is heavily weighted toward southern Italians and Sicilians, usually Italian Americans who have tested. There are a few northern Italians who have tested, but very few. ...

If 23andme had enough representative samples, these "broad" categories would disappear, and, in my opinion, a lot of that "broadly Southern European" would become "Italian".

I don't think, btw, that this covers only movements within the last 500 years. I think it's more likely reaching back to perhaps as far as about 400 BC and the Gauls.

I did some snipping of your quote, because these here are what I kind of think also, with my limited knowledge. I told my family the results were only as accurate as the database of people reporting where they and their grandparents are from. I think it makes sense that "Broadly Southern European" would become "Italian", because after all, the only other major Southern European is Sicilian, Greek, Provençal and Iberian, and I think they're pretty much accounted for. Italy was settled, colonized and invaded by so many other groups over the millennia the current samples may not be enough for a true representation... just my guess.

[Angela]

I did some snipping of your quote, because these here are what I kind of think also, with my limited knowledge. I told my family the results were only as accurate as the database of people reporting where they and their grandparents are from. I think it makes sense that "Broadly Southern European" would become "Italian", because after all, the only other major Southern European is Sicilian, Greek, Provençal and Iberian, and I think they're pretty much accounted for. Italy was settled, colonized and invaded by so many other groups over the millennia the current samples may not be enough for a true representation... just my guess.

If this is any indication, I think you understand it very well for someone who hasn't been at this very long. :)

There's another thing to consider as well, which relates to the fact that Ancestry clusters Italians and Greeks together. Given that the vast majority of their testees are probably Italian-Americans from the south and Sicily, they can't distinguish all that well between Italians (really southern Italians) and Greeks. Even with Tuscans, although they plot north and west of even far northern mainland Greeks, there's bound to be some overlap.

The same thing happens with the Swiss, Austrians, south eastern French, Slovenes, some of the Croatians, and the Italians down to and including the Tuscans in DNA Land. Since they don't have all that many samples yet, they can't reliably distinguish between these groups so they seem to have labeled the cluster "Italian", which means that many northern Europeans are getting a lot of "Italian", much to their consternation and apparent displeasure, I might add. :)

The point is that national boundaries don't perfectly correspond with allele clusters, not even when you have the Alps in the way, and in neighboring regions there's going to be overlap.

I stopped fussing about with these calculators for precisely that reason. I can trace almost all of my lines back to Parma, the Lunigiana, and mountainous eastern Liguria to the mid 1500s, and a few with more privileged status back to the early 1400s. I am therefore reliably 100% Italian as far as I'm concerned. The rest is merely of academic interest from a population genetics point of view.

[Thorbjorn]

I think you understand it very well for someone who hasn't been at this very long. :)

I'll take that as a high compliment. I'm a quick study.

There's another thing to consider as well, which relates to the fact that Ancestry clusters Italians and Greeks together. Given that the vast majority of their testees are probably Italian-Americans from the south and Sicily, they can't distinguish all that well between Italians (really southern Italians) and Greeks.

True, especially since the very south of Italy and Sicily were Greek colonies. I think most of the immigration to the US from Italy was from the south. and as you said, most of the testees are probably Italian-Americans.

The point is that national boundaries don't perfectly correspond with allele clusters, not even when you have the Alps in the way, and in neighboring regions there's going to be overlap.

Yep, which is why I think that commercial with the guy who trades in his lederhosen for a kilt can get a lot of people upset with their results.

[Sile]

I'm thinking my Sicilian half is the East Med and Middle Eastern & North African, (the T yDNA being Phoenician/Carthage, SW Asia, NE Africa?). I think it's my maternal side that is up for grabs as to where they came from.I'm really intrigued by all this and am looking to discover just who all those peoples were that made me.

Thanks for any insights you or anyone else may have.

Depends which of the 3 T ydna trees you belong too.

your maternal side is not your ancient side, it is only your current marker for you................your father most likely would have a completely different mtdna

[Sile]

My mother's family is from Northern Lombardy near the Swiss Border, Ferrazzano in Molise and Atripalda in Campania. .

???
Molise and campania are not in Northern Italy

[Sile]

Wow, that's pretty interesting that she's definitely from the north, and her numbers are pretty close to mine. I'm pretty sure my paternal side lived in Sicily for centuries, but I don't know about my maternal side.

my father's 23andme numbers below............he is north-italian with 350 years of continuous registry documents on his family line

99.6% European


Southern European
21.0% Italian
6.0% Balkan
4.1% Iberian

31.5% Broadly Southern European

Northwestern European
5.4% French & German
3.0% British & Irish

18.2% Broadly Northwestern European


0.6% Eastern European

0.1%Ashkenazi

9.7%Broadly European

0.3% East Asian & Native American
East Asian 0.3%

Broadly East Asian


I asked 23andme on why the high 31.5% broadly southern European of which is not Italian nor Iberian and neither balkan and they basically state they do not have enough sample from the Italian, Slovenian and Austrian alpine people.

I think Slovenia and Hungary are not part of the Balkans for 23andme

[Thorbjorn]

Depends which of the 3 T ydna trees you belong too.

That's what I don't know. 23andMe shows it as T*

your maternal side is not your ancient side, it is only your current marker for you................your father most likely would have a completely different mtdna

I thought mtDNA was passed in a direct line from mother to child also. What I meant when I said up for grabs is that I don't know anything about my mother's ancestors, where they lived or their names, or anything. I have to assume they lived in the Campania region for centuries. My father and his sisters (I suppose they would share my grandmother's mtDNA) are deceased many years.

[Thorbjorn]

I asked 23andme on why the high 31.5% broadly southern European of which is not Italian nor Iberian and neither balkan and they basically state they do not have enough sample from the Italian, Slovenian and Austrian alpine people.

I think Slovenia and Hungary are not part of the Balkans for 23andme

Yes, I think it is coming down to not enough sampling yet. I suppose as time goes on and more people test, unless this is just a fad and goes the way of 8-track tapes, it will become more accurate.

[Sile]

That's what I don't know. 23andMe shows it as T*



I thought mtDNA was passed in a direct line from mother to child also. What I meant when I said up for grabs is that I don't know anything about my mother's ancestors, where they lived or their names, or anything. I have to assume they lived in the Campania region for centuries. My father and his sisters (I suppose they would share my grandmother's mtDNA) are deceased many years.

Then download your Rs numbers from 23andme and see which ones match this site below
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html

then you will know further info on your T ydna


In regards to mtdna
as an example..............my mother gave me H95a.................my sons got K1a4 from their mother...............my father is T2b35
We do all have identical Ydna , but much different mtdna

your mtdna goes from mother from grandmother from great grandmother etc etc ...............your ancestral side of Hv in Italy is very very old ...................

write to Goiello on this site
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=115
he studies HV mtdna in Italy

[Thorbjorn]

Thanks Sile, I'll try the isogg site. I have my downloaded 23andMe data. From what I've read HV4 really is very old, about 30,000 years, coming from western Eurasia/Caucasus region, and common in Europe.

[Auld Reekie]

???
Molise and campania are not in Northern Italy

I am aware that Molise is Central/Southern and Campania is Southern, I suppose I had written it badly. Hers or rather our family come from all three regions, North marrying South when they came to New York.

[Thorbjorn]

Then download your Rs numbers from 23andme and see which ones match this site below
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html

then you will know further info on your T ydna

I just wanted to follow up and let you know I was able to get the info. (I did have some help). It turns out I have rs2032672 C, which I was told is T1a (M70). No idea what that means, but I'm glad to know something new.

[Sile]

I just wanted to follow up and let you know I was able to get the info. (I did have some help). It turns out I have rs2032672 C, which I was told is T1a (M70). No idea what that means, but I'm glad to know something new.

thanks

95% of T ydna people have this marker ....................you should find something else lower on the tree..................see the T tree below

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html


myself and Fundora as an example are
T1a2b1a1 - CTS8862, CTS8489 , CTS9984, CTS10538 .......................this group is 4500 years old

[Thorbjorn]

thanks

95% of T ydna people have this marker ....................you should find something else lower on the tree..................see the T tree below

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html


myself and Fundora as an example are
T1a2b1a1 - CTS8862, CTS8489 , CTS9984, CTS10538 .......................this group is 4500 years old

I was wondering about those CTSxxx entries. I have seen them before but I can't remember where, except on that tree. I didn't get past T1aM70/Page46/PF5662, Page78 I know they are in my data somewhere.

Edited to show that I am either a complete dolt, or I am learning:

I found this site https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...FnmOFtKiM/edit and did indeed go a little further down the tree to look in in my downloaded file to find the location 6736443 C. So it looks like I am T1a1a - L208/Pages2. I think I finally got it, it was time consuming but fun (I'm weird ).

[Sile]

I was wondering about those CTSxxx entries. I have seen them before but I can't remember where, except on that tree. I didn't get past T1aM70/Page46/PF5662, Page78 I know they are in my data somewhere.

Edited to show that I am either a complete dolt, or I am learning:

I found this site https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...FnmOFtKiM/edit and did indeed go a little further down the tree to look in in my downloaded file to find the location 6736443 C. So it looks like I am T1a1a - L208/Pages2. I think I finally got it, it was time consuming but fun (I'm weird ).

Great
so you are in Pages00002 of the largest T1a groups ( there are 3 groups of T1a and 1 group of T2 ) .............. T1a1* ( under L162)

I am in the T1a2 * group , so we differ

[Thorbjorn]

Great
so you are in Pages00002 of the largest T1a groups ( there are 3 groups of T1a and 1 group of T2 ) .............. T1a1* ( under L162)

I am in the T1a2 * group , so we differ

Thanks for confirming that I wasn't reading it wrong. There's nothing worse (well, maybe a few things worse) than telling the world you're one thing and you learn you're not.

[Fsdrm]

my father's 23andme numbers below............he is north-italian with 350 years of continuous registry documents on his family line

99.6% European


Southern European
21.0% Italian
6.0% Balkan
4.1% Iberian

31.5% Broadly Southern European

Northwestern European
5.4% French & German
3.0% British & Irish

18.2% Broadly Northwestern European


0.6% Eastern European

0.1%Ashkenazi

9.7%Broadly European

0.3% East Asian & Native American
East Asian 0.3%

Broadly East Asian


I asked 23andme on why the high 31.5% broadly southern European of which is not Italian nor Iberian and neither balkan and they basically state they do not have enough sample from the Italian, Slovenian and Austrian alpine people.

I think Slovenia and Hungary are not part of the Balkans for 23andme

Balkan is a peninsula, and Hungary simply dosen't located on that peninsula.