Just the opposite (R1a, R1b, IE)

[Athiudisc]

If you pretend to demonstrate that bears live in steppes yes, if i try to give an example of squirrels in a forest... Wiki is a cookie for that.

I don't know what your cookie talk means, but I'm not pretending anything. The source you yourself first employed says bears can be found on the steppe. Now suddenly your source is bad because you don't want to believe it. I don't care.

Villabruna's R1b1a didn't have any children? woo!

We don't know of any. Do you? A random guy in a random place 14,000 years ago is a bit different than related subclades together thousands of years later.

that's a call to autorithy, don't call to papa if you can't give answers for 1-4

All of your "red alarms" are "calls to authority," then, even (especially) the goofy ones. Please stop with this bizarre hypocrisy. "Wiki says...I don't care what wiki says!" "Klyosov says...I don't care what anyone says, appeal to authority!" Just stop.

Well, as you know a seafaring IE vocabulary that nobody else knows

This is what I'm talking about. Because YOU are unfamiliar with PIE terms, you assume they don't exist, even though I've given you a few. It's...tiring.

i was wondering if you also was capable to find out sirens...

I am (it comes, ultimately, from PIE "ser," "to bind"), but it doesn't really matter, does it? You don't care. It doesn't fit in your theory.

more seriously, i might have asked for octopusses, tillers or alike.

So your more serious statement is something along the lines of "if there's no PIE words for creatures that don't exist in the seas we know PIEs were familiar with, this proves they didn't have water-travel beyond rivers?" That makes no sense.

As for a tiller, I think you meant a rudder, which comes from the same PIE root for "row," already discussed. A tiller is just an extended handle for a rudder; the rudder is what steers the boat.

I can't deny an Eastern origin, maybe from ancient HG shared DNA with Caucasians or with herder Neolithics not tested (ie no farmers), but by sure I will not be cheated that it was from Yamnayans; you might understand that the issue is about the belief about the mighty Yamnayans, the bunch of herdsmen that changed almost all European Y-DNA.

I honestly don't know what "I will not be cheated that it was from Yamnayans" even means.

I think we're done until more genetic evidence comes forth to support or refute one of us. At this point, you're just flailing. I have little interest in your bizarre mental gymnastics and even less in your attempts at insult.

 

[berun]

OK, no answers at all for 1-4 but secondary discussions ever, it's not necessary to go on, let's wait so.

 

[Athiudisc]

Your questions were addressed, you just didn't care for the answers. So yes, now we wait.

 

[Dov]

Actually, there are no bears in the Volga steppes. Although some lived in Samara Bend until the 20th century. But in general, the area of their habitat farther north.

The same applies to the Elk. They live more to the north, and are not found in south steppe.

Birch, probably the main tree of Indo-Europeans. Although, of course, 5,000 years ago the area was dissemination and to the south. Nevertheless, the greatest concentration of birch begins in the north.

All these things mean that the Indo-Europeans know about northern flora and fauna in northern locations. And probably they were there for some time. But of course it is not 100% proof of correctness.

 

[Athiudisc]

Although some lived in Samara Bend until the 20th century.

Samara...why does that sound familiar? Something about R1b-M269...

All these things mean that the Indo-Europeans know about northern flora and fauna in northern locations.

Why wouldn't they?

 

[berun]

The Samara Bend forms a forested mountainous penninsula were it would be logic to see bears: it's not a steppe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhiguli_Mountains

To see such bears the Yamnayans might cross the Volga river even, and only the northernmost Yamnayans could, just those in the limit of their cultural area, the other Yamnayans inhabiting the other milion of squared kilometers of steppe would have less easy to see it and in the best case they would have a very vague idea about what kind of animal is a bear.

 

[LeBrok]

The Samara Bend forms a forested mountainous penninsula were it would be logic to see bears: it's not a steppe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhiguli_Mountains

To see such bears the Yamnayans might cross the Volga river even, and only the northernmost Yamnayans could, just those in the limit of their cultural area, the other Yamnayans inhabiting the other milion of squared kilometers of steppe would have less easy to see it and in the best case they would have a very vague idea about what kind of animal is a bear.

There you have it, the so called Steppe is not necessarily only the grassland, often it contains forested areas with bears too.

 

[Athiudisc]

To see such bears the Yamnayans might cross the Volga river even, and only the northernmost Yamnayans could

Don't forget about bears to the south. If, as I'm suggesting, PIE was a fusion of northerly R1a and southerly R1b, it would only make sense for PIE to have a word for an animal that both populations were familiar with, even if said animal were uncommon to the open steppe.

 

[berun]

There you have it, the so called Steppe is not necessarily only the grassland, often it contains forested areas with bears too.

It's not so, an ecosystem is an ecosystem, and such Bend is inside the forest steppe ecosystem, a dominion north of the Yamnayans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarskaya_Luka_National_Park

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_steppe

 

[berun]

And this was the main region of the Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture (3200 BC - 2300 BC), a culture related to CW, and the related Abashevo culture (2500 BC - 1900 BC), where I suspect was the IE / R1a Urheimat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatyanovo–Balanovo_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abashevo_culture

 

[berun]

Don't forget about bears to the south. If, as I'm suggesting, PIE was a fusion of northerly R1a and southerly R1b, it would only make sense for PIE to have a word for an animal that both populations were familiar with, even if said animal were uncommon to the open steppe.

A name is used if it has... a use; if in the steppes there aren't bears, people living there might lose the concept after some generations, by that Indian languages have lost many of such words, like *hekr 'maple', or by that some languages have changed the ancient meaning, as Tocharian B yal 'gazele' is derived from IE *HelHen 'red deer' and so many examples.

 

[Athiudisc]

A name is used if it has... a use; if in the steppes there aren't bears, people living there might lose the concept after some generations

But there were bears upon the steppe, so it doesn't matter. No need to invent any kind of scenario to the contrary.

Again, this is going nowhere. I promise you, if evidence ever appears to support your theory that everyone else is wrong and Yamna/R1b-L23 weren't really Indo-European, I will apologize for ever doubting you.

 

[Goga]

What is so special about the bears? As far as I know bears have been poplating most of the EurAsia for a very long time.

We have a lot bears in Zagros Mountains / Iranian Plateau.

Nice VIDS!!!



child bear + Kurdish child FIGHTING (playing) with each other in KURDISTAN. Really FUNNY !!!

 

[Goga]

Kurdish brown bear vs. Kurdish dog PLAYING in KURDISTAN!

Brown Bear vs. dog

 

[Goga]

So, there is nothing special about bears. Bears are not really a big deal when you are seaching for the PIE URHEIMAT, which was actually on the Iranian Plateau.

Early PIE flora & fauna is actually very similar to the Zagros Mountains/Iranian Plateau. Iranian Plateau has everything, from the steppes to very high mountains. There are rivers, high mountains, lakes, forests, steppes, eagles, falcons, all kind of mammals (bear, fox, wolf, Caspian tiger (extinct) , Asiatic lion (extinct), etc.) all kinds of EurAsian plants...

There was even a Syrian elephant in Kurdistan, but are also extinct species on the Iranian Plateau

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_elephant


About the Persian tiger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_tiger
About the Persian lion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_lion



Early (original) PIE migrated from the Iranian Plateau migrated into Maykop/Yamnaya and from there they became the 'late' PIE who later migrated into Europe.


2 phases.

phase 1: early PIE from Iranian Plateau into Maykop/Yamnaya
phase 2: late PIE from Yamnaya into the Europe

 

[Goga]

List of birds of Iran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_of_Iran

List of mammals of Iran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_of_Iran


Iran has (had) EVERYTHING - TROPIC and NON-tropic, even the Iranian cheetah.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_cheetah


Persian leopard



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_leopard


Asian black bear




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_black_bear


" Wildlife of Iran includes its flora and fauna and their natural habitats. One of the most famous members of wildlife in Iran are the world's last surviving, critically endangered Asiatic cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus venaticus) also known as the Iranian cheetah, which are today found nowhere else but in Iran. Iran had lost all its Asiatic lion and the now extinct Caspian tigers by the earlier part of the twentieth century. The Syrian elephants used to live in southern parts of the country but has gone extinct as well.
Iran's wildlife is composed of several animal species including bears, gazelles, wild pigs, wolves, jackals, panthers, Eurasian lynx, and foxes. Other domestic animals include, sheep, goats, cattle, horses, water buffalo, donkeys, and camels. The pheasant, partridge, stork, eagles and falcon are also native to Iran.

The Persian leopard is said to be the largest of all the subspecies of leopards in the world. The main range of this species in Iran closely overlaps with that of bezoar ibex. Hence, it is found throughout Alborz and Zagros mountain ranges, as well as smaller ranges within the Iranian plateau. The leopard population is very sparse, due to loss of habitat, loss of natural prey, and population fragmentation. Apart from bezoar ibex, wild sheep, boar, deer (either Caspian red deer or roe deer), and domestic animals constitute leopards' diet in Iran.

More than one-tenth of the country is forested. The most extensive growths are found on the mountain slopes rising from the Caspian Sea, with stands of oak, ash, elm, cypress, and other valuable trees. On the plateau proper, areas of scrub oak appear on the best-watered mountain slopes, and villagers cultivate orchards and grow the plane tree, poplar, willow, walnut, beech, maple, and mulberry. Wild plants and shrubs spring from the barren land in the spring and afford pasturage, but the summer sun burns them away.

According to FAO reports, the major types of forests that exist in Iran and their respective areas are:^[1]

1. Caspian forests of the northern districts (33,000 km²)
2. Limestone mountainous forests in the northeastern districts (Juniperus forests, 13,000 km²)
3. Pistachio forests in the eastern, southern and southeastern districts (26,000 km²)
4. Oak forests in the central and western districts (100,000 km²)
5. Shrubs of the Dasht-e Kavir districts in the central and northeastern part of the country (10,000 km²)
6. Sub-tropical forests of the southern coast (5,000 km²) like the Hara forests.
   

More than 2,000 plant species are grown in Iran. The land covered by Iran’s natural flora is four times that of the Europe’s."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildlife_of_Iran

 

[berun]

But there were bears upon the steppe, so it doesn't matter. No need to invent any kind of scenario to the contrary.

That's quite boring. I'm waiting yet to see such bears.

Again, this is going nowhere. I promise you, if evidence ever appears to support your theory that everyone else is wrong and Yamna/R1b-L23 weren't really Indo-European, I will apologize for ever doubting you.

Apologies why? It's to you if you pay attention or not to red alarms. If being one or two even i would dismiss it but being so many something must go wrong with it.

 

[Dov]

Samara...why does that sound familiar? Something about R1b-M269...

Yes it's true. Therefore I mentioned.

They were found in a burial lebyazhenka IV (№19 in the picture). Originally, it referred to the Elshanka Culture. It is also known that in this culture probably had the first European ceramic tableware. It would be interesting to test Y of other burial.
These examples of Elshanka ceramic from a different location(Ulyanovsk) and possibly time:


http://www.archeo73.ru/ArcheoNeolit/Elshank11.htm

Characterized by unique features of the pattern, distinctive from other European and Central Asian ceramics. Therefore, the bringing from other culter of is disputed.

http://www.povolzie.archeologia.ru/13.htm (russian)

 

[Dov]

The Samara Bend forms a forested mountainous penninsula were it would be logic to see bears: it's not a steppe.

Yes I agree. This is not a steppe. On the Volga there are places, flood plains, which quite different from the surrounding steppe. With a unique fauna and ecosystem.

 

[LeBrok]

Yes I agree. This is not a steppe. On the Volga there are places, flood plains, which quite different from the surrounding steppe. With a unique fauna and ecosystem.

What are you guys suggesting? When people living in the steppe encountered forested areas of flooded rivers, they went around it? Maybe they were afraid of bears, lol. The vast Eurasian area which we call steppe also contains smaller ecosystems like forested wetter lands, some marshes and semi deserts. People who lived in this vast Steppe knew all these ecosystems with all the animals and they had names for them. How hard is to understand this?!!!
What happened do you think if folks from the steppe ventured to the northern edge where big northern forest starts? They stopped and never checked it out because they forgot passports or didn't get visas from forest people.