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Thread: Just the opposite (R1a, R1b, IE)

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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Just the opposite (R1a, R1b, IE)

    After checking the "archeoDNA" data, I had a mad idea about how IE would have spread. First let's look at the strange fact that the main IE languages are related to R1a (Germanic / Slavic / Baltic with Corded Ware, Indo-Iranic, and Tocharian), which leaves a bunch of regional IE languages out of the schema (Italic, Celtic from the Alpine arch, Venetic, Dacian-Thracian, Illyrian, Armenian, Greek). A more strange thing is how Yamnaya is supposed to have carried R1b to the West while it carried R1a to the North... when itself was 92% R1b (8% I2a2). A more strange fact is the genetical interruption of about 2200 BC, as the previous cultures of the Volga-Urals were mainly R1b; the Potapovka and Sintashta cultures change the results in the area to almost R1a all samples, and looking for this change it seems to come from the mix of the local Samara/Yamnaya/Poltavka (mainly R1b) with the Corded Ware/Fatyonovo/Abashevo (R1a). Of course the actual paradigm says that Yamnaya people or alike colonized Central Europe, but as far as i can see it's the opposite way, at least in Y-DNA.

    The mad idea that R1a could be the real carrier of IE seems to be reflected in the fact that R1a Hunter-Gatherers are not in the Volga but in north Russia (samples in Psov, Karelia, Smolensk), and such genetic make-up continues with Corded Ware, and above all, it jusitifies the apparent expansion of R1a to Central Asia, India, Takkla Makan and so on; at least the expansion of IE seems more easy to explain than with Yamnaya but of course i'm not genetist neither an expert of history of such large region.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Your hesitations are the mark of some intellectual honesty and of non-dogmatic deportment. Positive points according to me.
    That said, I think you cannot link Germanic languages to Corded, not so straightforwards. Not sure so called "Tokharians" were Y-R1a (I avow I don't know for sure)
    the Y-R1a dominated I-Eans seem all of them being on the 'satem' side, at first sight, what could show they are second hand I-Eanized people (not proved, I know)

    I, and others, think I-Ean expansion and acculturation is not a single eruptive event.

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    Germanic it's already linked to CW, as the extension of such culture includes Slavic and Baltic and such groups are the first to branch with Germanic, so a linguistic drift from a common source is expected; that also goes well with archaeology, as the first agriculturalists were Funnelbeaker with megaliths, but around 2900 BC came CW / Battle Axe culture with metals and kurgans, from such culture derived the Nordic Bronze Age, then the Nordic Iron Age / Jastorf, till appearing the Vikings in the area. Paleogenetics fit well also the case: HG were I2, a Funnelbeaker case was also I2, but then a CW was R1a, in the period of transit between Battle Axe and Bronze Age results were R1a, R1b, I1, as to have in the Nordic Bronze Age two R1b and a I1. As R1b is linked to the west, to western clades and to Bell Beaker, it's difficult to take it as Indoeuropean (but could be an Indoeuropaized BB), the linguistic change to Germanic only can be given for R1a with such data.

    For Tocharian it takes very long from the R1a Tarim mummies to the attested Tocharian A and B, but as such languages come from a common Tocharian such old language might be older, and as I don't know of cultural breaks in the region it's to suppose that the carriers of proto-Tocharian were the "mummies".

    Theories can be right till they can't dribble more known facts, so let's see how long such idea could go on in my head...

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Berun, you forgot about Khvalynsk culture (Chalcolithic Samara), where there was both R1a and R1b.

    I0433 / SVP46 (grave 1) - R1a1
    I0122 / SVP35 (grave 12) - R1b1

    They were from this cemetery:

    "The cemetery of Khvalynsk II, Saratov oblast, Russia, on the west bank of the Volga River,
    6 km north of the village of Alekseevka. Khvalynsk I and II are two parts of the same cemetery,
    excavated in 1977-79 (Khvalynsk I) and 1987-88 (Khvalynsk II).23 The two excavations
    revealed 197 graves, about 10x larger than other cemeteries of this period in the Volga-Ural
    steppes, dated by radiocarbon to 5200-4000 BCE (95.4% confidence). Bones of domesticated
    cattle and sheep-goat, and horses of uncertain status, were included in 28 human graves and
    in 10 sacrificial deposits. The 367 copper artifacts in the graves, mostly beads and rings, are
    the oldest copper objects in the Volga-Ural steppes, and trace elements and manufacturing
    methods in a few objects suggest trade with southeastern Europe."

    This shows that ca. 7000 years ago there was at least some overlap between R1a and R1b.

    We know that R1a people lived from Karelia (sample I0061) to Khvalynsk (sample I0433).

    We don't know how far south did Non-V88 R1b extend, it could by more southerly than R1a:

    http://s32.postimg.org/npur1zskl/R1b_R1a.png


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    Yamna was largely R1b but it was Eastern R1b - R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L23*. There was also R1a-Z93 in Yamna.

    No R1b-L51 and no R1b-L11 has been found in Yamna so far. Also no "Western" R1a has been found in Yamna.

    The problem with R1b-L11 (P312 & U106) expanding from Yamna, is that it shows a West->East distribution:

    Expansion of Bell Beaker culture "out of Iberia and Southern France" explains R1b-L51 (ht15) much better:



    Do you have a map showing variance of R1b-L11, because I could only find such a map for R1b-P312 ???

    ======================================

    Expansion of Yamna along the Danube into Southern Europe can be explained well enough by Eastern R1b:


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    We do have this "controversial" sample of R1b-M269 from Copper Age Spain - ATP3:

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-atp3/

    That sample is actually older than Indo-European expansions from Russia into Europe.

    Recently the authors of "Punctuated bursts in human male demography..." wrote:

    "(...) in Western Europe, related lineages within R1b-L11 expanded ~4.8–5.9 kya (Supplementary Fig. 14e), most markedly around 4.8 and 5.5 kya. The earlier of these times, 5.5 kya, is associated with the origin of the Bronze Age Yamnaya culture. The Yamnaya have been linked by aDNA evidence to a massive migration from the Eurasian Steppe, which may have replaced much of the previous European population24,25; however, the six Yamnaya with informative genotypes did not bear lineages descending from or ancestral to R1b-L11, so a Y-chromosome connection has not been established. The later time, 4.8 kya, coincides with the origins of the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture in Eastern Europe and the Bell–Beaker culture in Western Europe26. (...)"

    ATP3 from Sierra de Atapuerca (El Portalon cave) in Spain, is dated to ~5.5–5.3 kya (~5466-5312 years ago).

    This falls perfectly within the time range for expansion of R1b-L11 in Western Europe (which is ~5.9-4.8 kya).

    If ATP3 was R1b-L51+, then Western European R1b could originate in Copper Age Spain, not in Yamna culture.

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    Check also the distribution of basal subclades of R1b-L51* (i.e. L51 which is neither P312 nor U106).

    Such most basal subclades of R1b-L51* are most frequent in South-Western Europe, notably France:



    If we assume that R1b-L51 came from Yamna, why are there no traces of R1b-L51* left in the East?

    Of course, ancient DNA is "superior" to modern DNA. It will provide conclusive evidence in the future.

    But so far indeed not a single sample of R1b-L51 has been found in Yamnaya, and it may remain so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Check also the distribution of basal subclades of R1b-L51* (i.e. L51 which is neither P312 nor U106).

    Such most basal subclades of R1b-L51* are most frequent in South-Western Europe, notably France:



    If we assume that R1b-L51 came from Yamna, why are there no traces of R1b-L51* left in the East?

    Of course, ancient DNA is "superior" to modern DNA. It will provide conclusive evidence in the future.

    But so far indeed not a single sample of R1b-L51 has been found in Yamnaya, and it may remain so.
    It is possible that even before the Yamnaya Horizon migration into Europe, so prior to the Yamnaya Steppes migration, the auDNA (autosomal) landscape of Europe and Yamnaya Horzion was already for 50-75% identical to each other.


    Not only the Y-DNA haplogroups of Yamnaya were West Asian (Eastern), but Yamnaya was also partly West Asian (Caucaso-Gedrosian) autosomal. So, it is possible that Europe was also prior to migration from Yamnaya already partly West Asian (in addition to Neolithic West Asian) & partly Steppes.


    With other words, maybe there was already a migration from the 'east' hundreds of years before the 'out-of-Yamnaya migration'. So that the Yamnaya auDNA influence of Europe could be overrated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Berun, you forgot about Khvalynsk culture (Chalcolithic Samara), where there was both R1a and R1b.
    I see, could have this R1a an origin in the local HG then? Take into account that your map for R1a the HG would have a more extended territory:

    7500-4500 Russia, Anashkino, Psov oblast A4 R1a1

    Chekunova 2014
    mtDNA H
    4000 BC Russia, Serteya (Smolenskaya oblast) A3 "R1a1"

    Chekunova 2014
    mtDNA H

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    There was also R1a-Z93 in Yamna.
    Which one? i can't detect it.

    By the way the map showing the extension of R1b-L23 could fit also a Neolithic diffusion taking in to account the Anatolian stronghold, but also could reflect the Hurrian/Urrite/Pelasgian/Etruscan Bronze Age history...

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    With other words, maybe there was already a migration from the 'east' hundreds of years before out-of-Yamnaya migration. So that the Yamnaya auDNA influence of Europe could be overrated.
    I have thought that such common DNA is shared from the same common population but in different times and routes: Westerners through Neolithic colonization coming from Anatolia/Fertile Crescent, and the Yamnaya from Trans-Caucasians/Fertile Crescent through Maykop catalisation. Other ways are also possible but this one is more economic and would allow a late R1a migration to Central Asia from European Russia.

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    Do you have a map showing variance of R1b-L11, because I could only find such a map for R1b-P312 ???
    You may get it in "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe" L-11 is Westerner now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Berun, you forgot about Khvalynsk culture (Chalcolithic Samara), where there was both R1a and R1b.

    I0433 / SVP46 (grave 1) - R1a1
    I0122 / SVP35 (grave 12) - R1b1

    They were from this cemetery:

    "The cemetery of Khvalynsk II, Saratov oblast, Russia, on the west bank of the Volga River,
    6 km north of the village of Alekseevka. Khvalynsk I and II are two parts of the same cemetery,
    excavated in 1977-79 (Khvalynsk I) and 1987-88 (Khvalynsk II).23 The two excavations
    revealed 197 graves, about 10x larger than other cemeteries of this period in the Volga-Ural
    steppes, dated by radiocarbon to 5200-4000 BCE (95.4% confidence). Bones of domesticated
    cattle and sheep-goat, and horses of uncertain status, were included in 28 human graves and
    in 10 sacrificial deposits. The 367 copper artifacts in the graves, mostly beads and rings, are
    the oldest copper objects in the Volga-Ural steppes, and trace elements and manufacturing
    methods in a few objects suggest trade with southeastern Europe."

    This shows that ca. 7000 years ago there was at least some overlap between R1a and R1b.

    We know that R1a people lived from Karelia (sample I0061) to Khvalynsk (sample I0433).

    We don't know how far south did Non-V88 R1b extend, it could by more southerly than R1a:

    http://s32.postimg.org/npur1zskl/R1b_R1a.png

    I'd say both R1a & R1b were around the southern Caspian Sea 14 ka - check Hoti & Belt Caves
    R1a was the first to cross the Caucasus and move further north along the big rivers of Eastern Europe
    R1b-P297 followed later
    First IE were R1b-M269 and M73 (Afanasievo may be R1b-M73)
    Suvorovo (anatolian branch) was R1b-M269
    R1a-M417 was a herder in the forest-steppe zone north of the Pontic Steppe who adopted IE language and culture,
    it was the origin for both corded ware and abashevo, syntashta evolved out of abashevo

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Other ways are also possible but this one is more economic and would allow a late R1a migration to Central Asia from European Russia.
    Some facts:

    a) Haplogroup R1a* is more than 15000 years old. R1a is older than the so called 'Indo-Europeans'.

    b) R1a rose from R1*.

    c) Central Asia has some local Y-DNA haplogroups like hg. 'L' and hg. 'H' that are almost absent outside Central and SouthCentral Asia.

    d) Central Asian R1a is not the same as the European Russian R1a.



    There are 2 possibilities.

    1.

    R1a in European Russia and Central Asia are very different from each other. R1a in Karelia has no direct links with R1a-Z93 in Central Asia. It is not ancestral to it.
    And there are almost no other ancient 'European' haplogroups like hg. 'I', hg. 'I1' or hg. 'I2' in Central Asia. This means that there was no migration from the Western Steppes into the Easter Steppes.

    So, it is possible that there was already R1a in the whole Eurasia for thousands of years, before Indo-Europeans ever came into the existence.


    OR 2.

    There is also R1a-Z93 on the Iranian Plateau, but they are not so much other local Central Asian haplogroups in West Asia. And this is an indication that there was no migration from Central Asia into West Asia, because if there was a migration from Central Asia into West Asia, R1a-Z93 would also bring other 'Central Asian' haplogroups with it, like Y-DNA haplogroups 'L' and 'H'. Since Central Asia is full of local hg. L and hg. H. Central Asia as whole region has much more local hg. 'L', hg. 'H' and hg. 'R2' than 'R1a'.

    Instead, the R1a-Z93 migration from the Iranian Plateau into Central Asia is possible, because there are many West Asian haplogroups in Central Asia, like hg. 'J2a', hg. 'G' etc.


    R1a-Z93 in Iran can't be from Central Asia, but R1a-Z93 in Central Asia could be from Iran. When R1a-Z93 in Iran can't be from Central Asia, where is it from then???

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    New revelations:

    First R1b entered Italy from the Near East at least 14,000 years (they came as hunter-gatherers):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post479360

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Check also the distribution of basal subclades of R1b-L51* (i.e. L51 which is neither P312 nor U106).

    Such most basal subclades of R1b-L51* are most frequent in South-Western Europe, notably France:



    If we assume that R1b-L51 came from Yamna, why are there no traces of R1b-L51* left in the East?

    Of course, ancient DNA is "superior" to modern DNA. It will provide conclusive evidence in the future.

    But so far indeed not a single sample of R1b-L51 has been found in Yamnaya, and it may remain so.
    interesting
    where did you get this map?

    this is the YFull tree :
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/
    R-L51 split 5,8 ka in just 2 clades :
    - R-Z2118 TMRCA 5000 years
    - R-L151 TMRCA 4900 years
    it is still possible R-L51 split in the Pontic steppe and both R-Z2118 and R-L151 moved west not earlier than 5000 years ago as attested by new kurgans in the Balkan and the Carpathian Basin around that time ; around 4900 years ago, first Bell Beakers arrive in Portugal
    IMO first Bell Beaker in Portugal was R1b-L151

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    YFull age estimates are too young.

    For example YFull's estimate for TMRCA of R1b-L11 is only ~5,000 years ago.

    But authors of "Punctuated bursts..." estimate its TMRCA as ~6,000 years ago.

    I got the map from BB blogger:

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...eal-cline.html

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    wrong topic

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I see, could have this R1a an origin in the local HG then? Take into account that your map for R1a the HG would have a more extended territory:

    7500-4500 Russia, Anashkino, Psov oblast A4 R1a1

    Chekunova 2014
    mtDNA H
    4000 BC Russia, Serteya (Smolenskaya oblast) A3 "R1a1"

    Chekunova 2014
    mtDNA H
    7500-4500, really ???

    As far as I know, both of them were ~4000 BC, so 6000 years ago.

    My map was for samples which are older, ca. 7000 years old.

    But I placed an arrow showing expansion towards Pskov/Smolensk.

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    R1a in European Russia and Central Asia are very different from each other. R1a in Karelia has no direct links with R1a-Z93 in Central Asia. It is not ancestral to it.
    And there are almost no other ancient 'European' haplogroups like hg. 'I', hg. 'I1' or hg. 'I2' in Central Asia. This means that there was no migration from the Western Steppes into the Easter Steppes.

    So, it is possible that there was already R1a in the whole Eurasia for thousands of years, before Indo-Europeans ever came into the existence.
    From "Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a phylogeography": "Using the 8 R1a lineages, with an average length of 48 SNPs accumulated since the common
    ancestor, we estimate the splintering of R1a-M417 to have occurred rather recently, B5800 years ago (95% CI: 4800–6800). [...] Star-like branching
    near the root of the Asian subtree suggests rapid growth and dispersal."

    Moreover the data suggested by the authors is around the data of Indoeuropean-just-before-splitting...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    New revelations:

    First R1b entered Italy from the Near East at least 14,000 years (they came as hunter-gatherers):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post479360
    So another fact that gives to "IE from R1b/Yamnaya" theory a more difficult dribbling...

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    7500-4500, really ???
    From THE FIRST RESULTS OF GENETIC TYPING OF LOCAL POPULATION AND ANCIENT HUMAN BONESIN UPPER DVINA REGION: "Sample № А4 is a tooth from maxilla, found during excava-tions of B.S.Korotkevich on the hillfort Anashkino. e hori-zon, where it was found, is dated to VIII-V c. BC (Короткевич 2013)."

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    From "Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a phylogeography": "Using the 8 R1a lineages, with an average length of 48 SNPs accumulated since the common
    ancestor, we estimate the splintering of R1a-M417 to have occurred rather recently, B5800 years ago (95% CI: 4800–6800). [...] Star-like branching
    near the root of the Asian subtree suggests rapid growth and dispersal."

    Moreover the data suggested by the authors is around the data of Indoeuropean-just-before-splitting...
    This is what I mean. R1a in Karelia has nothing to do with R1a-M417 or the Indo-Europeans in general. R1a was widespread all over the Eurasia before the Indo-Europeans.


    " The diversification downstream of M417 occurred ~5800 years ago "

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201450a.html


    So this happened even before the Yamnaya culture was born and was maybe at the very beginning of the Maykop culture.


    Yamnaya culture is max 5500 years old, while the diversification downstream of M417 occurred about 5800 years ago. By the time when R1b-Z2103 from Maykop migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon (5500 YPB), the Y-DNA hg. R1a-Z283 & R1a-Z93 already existed.

    I do agree with you that the splitting of R1a-M417 occurred around the beginning of the Maykop culture, but it is still not yet established where that split happened. Or that it has anything to do with Maykop/Yamnaya. The diversification happened not during the Yamnaya, but before, that for sure...

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    R1a was widespread all over Eurasia before IE?

    You try to relate the R1a split with millenial cultures but i try to relate such split with the date that common IE started to diverge.

    By the way CW (2900-2300) seems to expand eastwards direct to the Yamnaya core (3500-2300), more exactly the CW subculture of Fatyanovo (3200-2300); that's another fact difficult to dribble for R1b = IE, as R1a was migrating where it's supposed that R1b were departing to the west...

    CW expansion.JPG

    map from The Bronze Era of the Forest Belt of the USSR (1987).

    also it's good to take into account that the DNA samples from Yamnaya date after such process, so caution if the Yamnaya DNA in CW is not in fact CW DNA in Yamnaya...

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    R1a was widespread all over Eurasia before IE?

    You try to relate the R1a split with millenial cultures but i try to relate such split with the date that common IE started to diverge.
    Yes, you can take me as an example. As an Ezdi Kurd I'm native to the Northern Mesopotamia, Shengal (Sinjar) region of Kurdistan. My archaic ancestors never lived in the Steppes

    I belong to a Y-DNA hg. R1a* which is not part and is older than M17 (R1a1a). With other words, R1a is NOT native to the Steppes. Because the R1a* to which I do belong is NOT from the Steppes.







    " Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran. "

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201450a.html



    Ancient R1a in the Western Eurasian Steppes predate any Indo-Europeans (movement) by THOUSANDS of years



    There are 2 things what you have to remember.

    1) Yamnaya culture was the OLDEST Indo-European culture of Europe.
    2) Scientists have proven with auDNA (autosomal) that around the Yamnaya Period there was a migration from East (Yamnaya) into West (Europe).

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