The genetic history of Ice Age Europe

[Fire Haired14]

So how did they conclude, that he came from the Near East?

The media authors aren't as familiar with this topic as we are so they are giving miss information. He, and all Europeans after 14,000 years ago, was more related to Near Easterners than earlier Europeans were. This is likely because of WHG-related ancestry in modern Near Eastern people. It's possible WHG has partial Near Eastern origins or Near Easterners have partial European WHG-related origins.

 

[Goga]

There we go...now THAT is a western European man's skull!

That R1b fella had even BLUE eyes, although his skin was dark...

 

[Tomenable]

I doubt that R1b-M269+ were originally IE speakers, or that they originated in the Russian Steppe.

More likely, they were Non-Indo-Europeans who were responsible for the diffusion of metallurgy.

Some of them (R1b-Z2103) became Indo-Europeanized by R1a (who adopted metallurgy from them).

But other M269 - like that "controversial" Copper Age M269 from Spain: ATP3 - initially remained Non-IE.

See this map of the diffusion of metallurgy (ATP3 from Iberia wasn't Neolithic - he was Copper Age!):

Note that copper metallurgy came to Southern Iberia early on (= ancestors of R1b-L11 ???):

R1b-L11 Bell Beakers were originally Non-IE (speakers of languages related to Basque), until they came to Central Europe.

In Central Europe (Germany) they came into contact with Corded Ware folks, and gradually adopted IE language from them.

Then Italo-Celtic languages spread as back-migrations from Central Europe to the west and to the south.

Also Bell Beakers in Central Europe most likely married many CWC women, acquiring their autosomal DNA.

 

[Tomenable]

The map above shows that Southern Iberia had copper metallurgy early on. Which haplogroup do you think imported copper metallurgy to Iberia, and later spread it out of Iberia ??? IMO R1b-L11. Remember, that ATP3 was not an Iberian Neolithic man, but an Iberian Copper Age man. R1b-M269 should rather be linked with the spread of metallurgy, not of IE languages. OTOH, R1b-Z2103 imported metallurgy to the Steppe, where they became Indo-Europeanized by local folks. R1b-L11 however were likely descended from ATP3-related folks and part of Bell Beaker since the beginning. Therefore, they were initially Non-IE and became Indo-Europeanized by German CWC. Later some of them back-migrated west & south, spreading Italo-Celtic languages.

 

[Tomenable]

Anthropology confirms that in Germany (= BB-CWC contact zone) Beakers mixed with Corded folks.

Carleton S. Coon wrote:

"(...) In their Rhineland center, the more numerous Bell Beaker people had
constant relationships with the inhabitants of Denmark, who were still
burying in corridor tombs. Furthermore, the Corded people, one branch
of whom invaded Jutland and introduced the single-grave type of burial,
also migrated to the Rhine Valley, and here amalgamated themselves
with the Bell Beaker people, who were already in process of mixing with
their Borreby type neighbors. The result of this triple fusion was a great
expansion, and a population overflow down the Rhine, in the direction
of Britain.

(8) THE BRONZE AGE IN BRITAIN

The consideration of the Bell Beaker problem leads naturally to that of
the Bronze Age in the British Isles, where the Beaker people found their
most important and most lasting home. Coming down the Rhine and out
into the North Sea, they invaded the whole eastern coast of England and
of Scotland, and also the shore of the Channel.
The Beaker invasion of Britain was not a simple affair. Not only did the
newcomers land in many places, but they brought with them somewhat
different traditions. Although most of them brought zoned beakers and
battle axes, in consequence of their blending with the Corded people in
the Rhinelands (...)"

So my hypothesis that Beakers acquired autosomal and mtDNA admixtures from CWC seems correct.

Perhaps also this is how BB acquired a minority of R1a, and CWC a minority of R1b-L11 lineages.

 

[Goga]

I doubt that R1b-M269+ were originally IE speakers, or that they originated in the Russian Steppe.

More likely, they were Non-Indo-Europeans who were responsible for the diffusion of metallurgy.

Some of them (R1b-Z2103) became Indo-Europeanized by R1a (who adopted metallurgy from them).

When was R1b-Z2103 Indo-Europeanized then and by which subtypes of R1a? Because at the time of Yamnaya culture, where Z2103 is found, there was already a split between R1a-Z283 and R1a-Z93.


If R1b-Z2103 was Indo-Europeanized around the Yamnaya Horizon then it has to be by R1a-Z93. But this whole story is way to one-dimensional and to simple.


I'm sure something else happened. What we know for sure is that Yamnaya culture was Indo-European and that R1b-Z2103 was part of that culture. Yamnaya is the OLDEST Indo-European culture in Europe.

 

[Silesian]

That R1b fella had even BLUE eyes, although his skin was dark...

According to Genetiker also R1b Hunter Gatherer had HERC2-[ blue eyes]. What are the chances the two oldest R1b samples 14k+/- and 7.5K+/- had HERC2-blue eyes?
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-europe/

OCA2/HERC2, rs12913832, blue eyes

Corded Ware LN I0049 AA
Corded Ware LN I0103 GA
Corded Ware LN I0104 AG
Esperstedt MN I0172 GA
Halberstadt LBA I0099 GG
Karelia HG I0061AA
Karsdorf LN I0550 AA
LBK EN I0022 GG
LBK EN I0025 GA
LBK EN I0026 AA
LBK EN I0046 GG
LBK EN I0048 GA
LBK EN I0054 AA
LBK EN I0056 GG
LBK EN I0100 GG
LBK EN I0659 GG
Motala HG I0011 GG
Motala HG I0012 GG
Motala HG I0013 GG
Motala HG I0014 GG
Motala HG I0015 GG
Motala HG I0016 GG
Motala HG I0017 GG
Samara HG I0124 GG
Spain EN I0410 AA
Yamnaya I0231 AA
Yamnaya I0357 AA
Yamnaya I0370 AA
Yamnaya I0429 AA
Yamnaya I0438 AA
Yamnaya I0443 GA
Yamnaya I0444 AA

 

[Silesian]

When was R1b-Z2103 Indo-Europeanized then and by which subtypes of R1a? Because at time of Yamnaya culture, where Z2103 is found, there was already a split between R1a-Z283 and R1a-Z93.


If R1b-Z2103 was Indo-Europeanized around the Yamnaya Horizon then it has to be by R1a-Z93. But this whole story is way to one-dimensional and to simple.


I'm sure something else happened. What we know for sure is that Yamnaya culture was Indo-European and that R1b-Z2103 was part of that culture. and that Yamnaya is the OLDEST Indo-European culture in Europe.

R1b-z2103 is about 1000 years older than R1a-93, or 500-600 years older than R1a-645-how does that work?6100YBP+/-
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z645/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2103/

 

[Goga]

According to Genetiker also R1b Hunter Gatherer had HERC2-[ blue eyes]. What are the chances the two oldest R1b samples 14k+/- and 7.5K+/- had HERC2-blue eyes?

Do you mean La Braña 1 who belonged to hg. C1a2?

He had also blue eyes and dark skin.

So it is pretty obvious that the blue eyes were already part of the hunter-gatherers.

 

[Goga]

R1b-z2103 is about 1000 years older than R1a-93, or 500-600 years older than R1a-645-how does that work?6100YBP+/-
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z645/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2103/

Maybe, but Yamnaya was the OLDEST Indo-European culture in Europe. And by the time when Yamnaya culture was born, there was already a split between R1a-Z283 and R1a-Z93.


According to the latest paper on R1a "the diversification downstream of M417 occurred ~5800 years ago". And this is BEFORE Yamnaya.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201450a.html



I think that R1b-Z2103 is from the Maykop culture and Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon. By the time when R1b-Z2103 migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon (5500 YBP), the Y-DNA hg. R1a-Z283 & R1a-Z93 already existed.

 

[sparkey]

One hypothesis that these results seem to help confirm is the idea that European C = Aurignacian and European I = Gravettian.

Aurignacian sample GoyetQ116-1 got tested as C1a with no further subclades called; recall that modern European C is mainly C-V20, or C1a2, so it could be either C-V20 or proto-C-V20.

Very early Gravettian sample Paglicci133 got a mix of Haplogroup I positive and negative SNP calls, indicating that it is early Haplogroup I or proto-I (we can't tell since canonical SNP M170 was not tested). Fellow Gravettian sample Pavlov1--about 2500 years younger or so--tested similarly as early Haplogroup I or proto-I with a mix of positive and negative SNP calls.

 

[Goga]

One hypothesis that these results seem to help confirm is the idea that European C = Aurignacian and European I = Gravettian.

Aurignacian sample GoyetQ116-1 got tested as C1a with no further subclades called; recall that modern European C is mainly C-V20, or C1a2, so it could be either C-V20 or proto-C-V20.

Very early Gravettian sample Paglicci133 got a mix of Haplogroup I positive and negative SNP calls, indicating that it is early Haplogroup I or proto-I (we can't tell since canonical SNP M170 was not tested). Fellow Gravettian sample Pavlov1--about 2500 years younger or so--tested similarly as early Haplogroup I or proto-I with a mix of positive and negative SNP calls.

Fascinating!

What is the reason that the Gravettian hg. I* survived until now, while the Aurignacian hg. C1a (almost) disappeared in Europe? Where the Aurignacian hg. C1a eventually replaced by the Gravettian hg. I* folks?

 

[Angela]

Is Gioiello still around? Has he opened up his oldest and best bottle of wine?

 

[Silesian]

Maybe, but Yamnaya was the OLDEST Indo-European culture in Europe. And by the time when Yamnaya culture was born, there was already a split between R1a-Z283 and R1a-Z93.


According to the latest paper on R1a "the diversification downstream of M417 occurred ~5800 years ago". And this is BEFORE Yamnaya.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201450a.html



I think that R1b-Z2103 is from the Maykop culture and Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon. By the time when R1b-Z2103 migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon (5500 YBP), the Y-DNA hg. R1a-Z283 & R1a-Z93 already existed.

R-M417F3166/M763 * CTS5979/PF6193/M700 * PF6218/M782+29 SNPsformed 8500 ybp, TMRCA 5500 ybpinfo
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/ Yes it is older than R1b-Z2103

Do you mean La Braña 1 who belonged to hg. C1a2?
He had also blue eyes and dark skin.
So it is pretty obvious that the blue eyes were already part of the hunter-gatherers.

No R1b from Steppe. Look at the base of the tree M73+ 7500 YBP+/-Io124 sample had Herc [blue eye gene] That
means both R1b samples on from Italy and one from Steppe had gene.

http://i42.tinypic.com/4so0wh.jpg


https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background

Z-2109 Pathans is 6200 YBP. From Poltavka- or Proto-Indo-Iranian?
J.P.Mallory "Poltovka Culture"
http://bit.ly/1SJwJCA

 

[Angela]

The Conclusions section:

"We show that the population history of pre-Neolithic Europe was
complex in several respects.

First, at least some of the initial modern humans to appear in Eurasia, exemplified by Ust’-Ishim and Oase1, failed to contribute appreciably to the current European gene pool.Only from around 37,000 years ago do all the European individuals analysed share ancestry with present-day Europeans.

Second, from the time of Kostenki14 about 37,000 years ago until the time of the Villabruna Cluster about 14,000 years ago, all individuals seem to derive from a single ancestral population with no evidence of substantial genetic influx from elsewhere. It is interesting that during this time, the Mal’ta Cluster is not represented in any of the individuals we sampled from Europe.

Thus, while individuals assigned to the Gravettian cultural complex in Europe are associated with the Věstonice Cluster, there is no genetic connection between them and the Mal’ta1 individual in Siberia, despite the fact that Venus figurines are associated with both. This suggests that if this similarity is not a coincidence, it reflects diffusion of ideas rather than movements of people.

Third, we find that GoyetQ116-1 derives from a different deep branch of the European founder population than the Věstonice Cluster which became predominant in many places in Europe between 34,000 and 26,000 years ago including at Goyet. GoyetQ116-1 is chronologically associated with the Aurignacian cultural complex. Thus, the subsequent spread of the Věstonice Cluster shows that the diffusion of the Gravettian cultural complex was mediated at least in part by population movements.

Fourth, the population represented by GoyetQ116-1 did not disappear, as its descendants became widespread again after ~19,000 years ago in the El Mirón Cluster when we detect them in Iberia. The El MirónCluster is associated with the Magdalenian culture and may represent a post-Glacial Maximum expansion from southwestern European refugia.

Fifth, beginning with the Villabruna Cluster at least ~14,000 years ago, all European individuals analysed show an affinity to the Near East. This correlates in time to the Bølling-Allerød interstadial, the first significant warming period after the Glacial Maximum.

Archaeologically, it correlates with cultural transitions within the Epigravettian in southern Europe and the Magdalenian-to-Azilian transition in western Europe. Thus, the appearance of the Villabruna Cluster may reflect migrations or population shifts within Europe at the end of the Ice Age, an observation that is also consistent with the evidence of mitochondrial DNA turnover. One scenario that couldexplain these patterns is a population expansion from southeastern European or west Asian refugia after the Glacial Maximum, drawing together the genetic ancestry of Europe and the Near East.

Sixth, within the Villabruna Cluster, some, but not all, individuals have an affinity to east Asians.

An important direction for future work will be to generate similar ancient DNA data from southeastern Europe and the Near East to arrive at a more complete picture of the Upper Palaeolithic population history of western Eurasia."

This possible movement into Europe from the Near East connected to the Bølling-Allerød interstadial warm period may correlate with the sudden expansion of certain mtDna lineages leading to "H".

Also, it's interesting that they're pointing to the Herc2 blue eyes mutation as coming from the southeast. Didn't an old paper trace its expansion to somewhere around the Black Sea about 10,000 years ago?

If the refugia for the Villabruna cluster was in Europe and not West Asia, could it have been in and around the now submerged Great Adriatic plain?

 

[Goga]

No R1b from Steppe. Look at the base of the tree M73+ 7500 YBP+/-Io124 sample had Herc [blue eye gene] That means both R1b samples on from Italy and one from Steppe had gene.

Nice! Blue-eyed hunter-gatherers!

Z-2109 Pathans is 6200 YBP. From Poltavka- or Proto-Indo-Iranian?
J.P.Mallory "Poltovka Culture"
http://bit.ly/1SJwJCA

What do you mean? I don't understand. Pathans are not 6200 years old. And why do you mention Poltavka?

There is a lot of space, time and different/distinguish cultures between Poltovka and Pathan folks south of Pakistan (homeland of Pathans).

1. Ancient Pathans (Pakthas) are much modern/younger people than the ancient Poltavka culture. Poltavka = 4700 YBP. While. Pathans (or ancient Pakthas) are (were) East Iranians who came from BMAC.
2. There is no direct 'highway' from Poltavka region into the Hindu Kush. If there was a migration from Poltavka it has to be in phases.



Z2103 in Pakistan and north India can be from BMAC or direct from the southern parts of the Caspian Sea. It can't be directly from Poltavka because the current region of Pathans doesn't border with and has no direct road to the ancient Poltavka. If it was from Poltava it should first settle around BMAC where East Iranians evolved and then going southward toward the Hindu Kush. There was no direct migration from Poltavka into Hindu Kush, that's impossible.

But if Z2103 is not from BMAC then it has to be directly from the southern parts of the Caspian Sea, not far from Azerbaijan province of Iran.

 

[Silesian]

Is Gioiello still around? Has he opened up his oldest and best bottle of wine?

I wish I would have been there to see the expression on his face, if he has seen it yet. I bet he was jumping up and down, screaming..
It's nice to see he was proven right, about finding ancient R1b in Italy.Not many were as bold as he was in his prediction. Already you could see when the R1b-V88 ancient Sardinia results came in on Yfull that R1b had a ancient presence in Italy.

 

[Silesian]

Nice! Blue-eyed hunter-gatherers!



What do you mean? I don't understand. Pathans are not 6200 years old. And why do you mention Poltavka?

There is a lot of space, time and different/distinguish cultures between Poltovka and Pathan folks south of Pakistan (homeland of Pathans).

1. Ancient Pathans (Pakthas) are much modern/younger people than the ancient Poltavka culture. Poltavka = 4700 YBP. While. Pathans (or ancient Pakthas) are (were) East Iranians who came from BMAC.
2. There is no direct 'highway' from Poltavka region into the Hindu Kush. If there was a migration from Poltavka it has to be in phases.



Z2103 in Pakistan and north India can be from BMAC or direct from the southern parts of the Caspian Sea. It can't be directly from Poltavka because the current region of Pathans doesn't border with and has no direct road to the ancient Poltavka. If it was from Poltava it should first settle around BMAC where East Iranians evolved and then going southward toward the Hindu Kush. There was no direct migration from Poltavka into Hindu Kush, that's impossible.

But if Z2103 is not from BMAC then it has to be directly from the southern parts of the Caspian Sea, not far from Azerbaijan province of Iran.

If you look at the R1b tree, I posted you will see that R1b-Z2103=Z2106=Z2108/9=Z2110/CTS7822 are all dated to 6100+/YBP
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/
Gioiello- Belongs to R1b- Z2110*
My branch is same R1b-9219+ found in Eastern Europe and Digor Ossetians.
There are not to many of our R1b branch in your map. There is no variance in our branches of R1b. in Iraq/Iran;and they are just as old as R1b Z2103+

 

[Angela]

Well, they come down hard on the Willerslev paper:

"A previous genetic analysis of early modern humans in Europe using
data from the ~37,000-year-old Kostenki14 suggested that the population
to which Kostenki14 belonged harboured within it the three
major lineages that exist in mixed form in Europe today4,15: (1) a lineage
related to all later pre-Neolithic Europeans, (2) a ‘Basal Eurasian’
lineage that split from the ancestors of Europeans and east Asians
before they separated from each other; and (3) a lineage related to
the ~24,000-year-old Mal’ta1 from Siberia. With our more extensive
sampling of Ice Age Europe, we find no support for this."

As I said at the time, it made no sense to me.

Here's the paper on which Willerslev was a co-author.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/346/6213/1113

 

[Fire Haired14]

This possible movement into Europe from the Near East connected to the Bølling-Allerød interstadial warm period may correlate with the sudden expansion of certain mtDna lineages leading to "H".

I doubt it because WHG, who they think might have come from SE Europe/Near East, was essentially 100% mtDNA U.

If the refugia for the Villabruna cluster was in Europe and not West Asia, could it have been in and around the now submerged Great Adriatic plain?

That makes a lot of sense. Even our 11,000 year old genome from the Southern tip of Italy is a typical WHG person. So, how could WHG be from Spain if it was so far SouthEast so long ago? Doesn't make sense. Our oldest examples of WHG so far are from Northern Italy(14ko),Switzerland(13ko), and France(13ko). 19,000 year old girl from Spain looks like a mixture of WHG and people who lived in Belgium 30,000 years ago. She did clearly have lots of WHG-affinity, but wasn't pure WHG.

I believe most of the 15,000 year old samples from Germany and Belgium are just like that Spanish lady, then suddenly after 15,000 ears ago everyone became WHG. But I'll have to check the paper to see if that's what happened. If that is the case, then WHG was a newcomer maybe from the SouthEast.