The genetic history of Ice Age Europe

epoch · May 23, 2016

Fire Haired14 said:
That's wrong. I don't mean to be a jerk, but there's no way that stat is correct. Kostenki14 has the same affinity to Europeans other Paleo-Euros do. He's closer to basically all modern Europeans than to Stuttgart. I've seen plenty of statistics proving this.

Table S8.1 in the SI of this paper has similar D-stats.

Tom Milledge · May 31, 2016

bicicleur said:
The Magdalenian reindeer hunters moved around in teepees, they were very mobile.

I guess the Magelmosian were the first Villabrunans arriving in Scandinavia 11 ka
They had huts made of bark whiwh indicates they were at least semi-sedentary.

The Maglemosian people lived in forest and wetland environments, using fishing and hunting tools made from wood, bone, and flint microliths. It appears that they had domesticated the dog.

This dog connection may be especially important. The latest dog genomics studies point to a 15k ybp radiation of domestic dogs out of southern east asia.

Since I am new here, I can't post working links, sorry about that! Google "Out of southern East Asia: the natural history of domestic dogs across the world" and scroll down to Figure 2D.

From their discussion:

As there is little evidence of westward human migrations from southern East Asia around 15 000 years ago, the initial spread of the domestic dog out of Asia may in part have been a self-initiated dispersal driven by environmental factors (e.g., the retreat of the glacial coverage that started about 19 000 years ago). The specific route domestic dogs used to migrate to the Middle East, Africa and Europe remains to be uncovered.

The conclusion is shaky, to say the least, but maybe the analysis is sound.

LeBrok · Jun 1, 2016

Tom Milledge said:
This dog connection may be especially important. The latest dog genomics studies point to a 15k ybp radiation of domestic dogs out of southern east asia.

Since I am new here, I can't post working links, sorry about that! Google "Out of southern East Asia: the natural history of domestic dogs across the world" and scroll down to Figure 2D.

From their discussion:

The conclusion is shaky, to say the least, but maybe the analysis is sound.

Here is a post with links to article and research.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...sands-years-ago-in-Europe?p=419987#post419987
Welcome to Eupedia, Tom.

holderlin · Jun 3, 2016

Finally had a minute to read this. I'm on vacation everyone : )

Not much to add. This was a good read though.

Still looks to me like WHG expansion out of the Italian (or thereabouts) refuge where they hunted and moved around a lot eventually mixing with MA1 like, CHG, and ENF. This coincides well with what is roughly agreed to be epigravettian continuity in Italy, the Balkans, and the SW Steppe. Makes sense to me.

So this would look something like: WHG is already in Anatolia as ENF expands into the region where they mix. As ENF/EEF continues to churn this WHG signal remains. There would have been mixing with CHG like in the North Caucuses and MA-1 like on the steppe. CHG and WHG share blue eyes, and AG3 has greatly increased WHG admixture compared to MA-1. And there's the lack of Basal Eurasian in WHG. All of this is consistent with WHG expansion. And I don't see anything that's inconsistent with WHG expansion.

epoch · Jun 6, 2016

holderlin said:
Finally had a minute to read this. I'm on vacation everyone : )

Not much to add. This was a good read though.

Still looks to me like WHG expansion out of the Italian (or thereabouts) refuge where they hunted and moved around a lot eventually mixing with MA1 like, CHG, and ENF. This coincides well with what is roughly agreed to be epigravettian continuity in Italy, the Balkans, and the SW Steppe. Makes sense to me.

So this would look something like: WHG is already in Anatolia as ENF expands into the region where they mix. As ENF/EEF continues to churn this WHG signal remains. There would have been mixing with CHG like in the North Caucuses and MA-1 like on the steppe. CHG and WHG share blue eyes, and AG3 has greatly increased WHG admixture compared to MA-1. And there's the lack of Basal Eurasian in WHG. All of this is consistent with WHG expansion. And I don't see anything that's inconsistent with WHG expansion.

Mesolithic greek mtDNA K1c?

Angela · Jun 14, 2016

I see the tune about the Villabruna results is changing. I wonder if there will be a retraction of all the nasty things said about this paper?

Oh, the irony.

holderlin · Jun 14, 2016

epoch said:
Mesolithic greek mtDNA K1c?

Missed this.

K1c isn't associated with EEF (yet) and those samples were pre-EEF. I wish they could have sampled them better and gotten a full genome though. These could have answered some questions.

holderlin · Jun 14, 2016

Angela said:
I see the tune about the Villabruna results is changing. I wonder if there will be a retraction of all the nasty things said about this paper?

Oh, the irony.

What's changing? Who's changing?

And I thought it was the Anatolian paper that everyone hated.

Fire Haired14 · Jun 14, 2016

holderlin said:
Missed this.

K1c isn't associated with EEF (yet) and those samples were pre-EEF. I wish they could have sampled them better and gotten a full genome though. These could have answered some questions.

Haplogroup K is probably Middle Eastern(common ancestry shared by EEF and CHG). K1c today is relatively popular in Europe, but I'm not sure how frequent it is anyother region. There's a good chance this means Mesolithic Greeks were largely "Middle Eastern"(or this type of ancestry went beyond the boundires of the Middle East) and may very well have been EEF-like.

holderlin · Jun 15, 2016

Fire Haired14 said:
Haplogroup K is probably Middle Eastern(common ancestry shared by EEF and CHG). K1c today is relatively popular in Europe, but I'm not sure how frequent it is anyother region. There's a good chance this means Mesolithic Greeks were largely "Middle Eastern"(or this type of ancestry went beyond the boundires of the Middle East) and may very well have been EEF-like.

Yes, it's widespread. I know that, but we haven't found it in ancient EEF whereas we've found K1a. That's all I'm saying, but I know sample size isn't massive yadda yadda yadda

It would have been nice to have gotten the full genomes of those Mesolithic Greeks so we wouldn't have to be speculating. I can't recall the archaeology at the moment to say things the culture and/or physical type, but for the time being this will offer some strong clues as to how EEF these per-farming Greeks may be. I should review the appendix.

Garrick · Jun 21, 2016

Paper published in journal "Nature", 9 June (Nature 534):

The Genetic History of Ice Age Europe

Fu et al (64 authors)

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v534/n7606/full/nature17993.html#tables

And links for figures and tables and supplementary info are changed in relation to the first post.

Extended data figures and tables

Extended Data Figure 1: A decrease in Neanderthal ancestry in the last 45,000 years. (127 KB)

LeBrok · Jun 21, 2016

Thanks for posting. I'm surprised of low level of Neanderthal DNA in Paleolithic folks. I thought it was much higher.

Hmmm, 15% of drop of Neanderthal DNA from Human genome in 50 thousand years, from 3 to 2.5 percent. I'm having doubts that it was about "fitness" of Neanderthal DNA. Perhaps some of them mutated beyond recognition that they are derived from Neanderthal. Others were replaced by volume of new mutations from people coming from South like WHG and farmers. One is certain, after initial mixing of both races, Neanderthal DNA quickly dropped to 3% (level of essential mutations for living in cold climate?) and lasted almost unchanged for 50 thousand years. If anything, we got the very "fit" part of their genome! The "unfit" part was weeded out very quickly, in just few generations.

When we look at coldest part of Ice Age 45 to 15 kya, the level of Neanderthal DNA is stable around 3% or even spiking higher during LGM, to almost 4% in some cases. The serious drop to 2.5% happens in our warm interglacial period.

Oase1 is quite an evenement. He must have had Neanderthal grand grand parent. Maybe he even knew him personally and talked to him?

Promenade · Jun 21, 2016

LeBrok said:
He must have had Neanderthal grand grand parent. Maybe he even knew him personally and talked to him?

Considering the lifespan of people at the time it is very unlikely, but it is an interesting thought

LeBrok · Jun 21, 2016

Promenade said:
Considering the lifespan of people at the time it is very unlikely, but it is an interesting thought

Yep, a possibility. Maybe not that unrealistic considering also that women had kids very early at age of 15, possibly even earlier. At age of 30 one can be grandmother, at age of 45 great grandma.

Greying Wanderer · Jun 21, 2016

LeBrok said:
Thanks for posting. I'm surprised of low level of Neanderthal DNA in Paleolithic folks. I thought it was much higher.

Hmmm, 15% of drop of Neanderthal DNA from Human genome in 50 thousand years, from 3 to 2.5 percent. I'm having doubts that it was about "fitness" of Neanderthal DNA. Perhaps some of them mutated beyond recognition that they are derived from Neanderthal. Others were replaced by volume of new mutations from people coming from South like WHG and farmers. One is certain, after initial mixing of both races, Neanderthal DNA quickly dropped to 3% (level of essential mutations for living in cold climate?) and lasted almost unchanged for 50 thousand years. If anything, we got the very "fit" part of their genome! The "unfit" part was weeded out very quickly, in just few generations.

When we look at coldest part of Ice Age 45 to 15 kya, the level of Neanderthal DNA is stable around 3% or even spiking higher during LGM, to almost 4% in some cases. The serious drop to 2.5% happens in our warm interglacial period.

Oase1 is quite an evenement. He must have had Neanderthal grand grand parent. Maybe he even knew him personally and talked to him?

My bold.

Something that just struck me reading this is what if Neanderthal DNA didn't drop because it sucked (or because of problems related to birth). What if there were just a lot fewer of them to start with?

For example four grand parents
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + Neanderthal
Neanderthal + Neanderthal
= grand child 37% Neanderthal

AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + Neanderthal
AMH + Neanderthal
= grand child 25% Neanderthal

AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + Neanderthal
= grand child 12.5% Neanderthal

eight great grandparents
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + Neanderthal
= grand child 6% Neanderthal

not sure if that makes sense or not?

LeBrok · Jun 21, 2016

Greying Wanderer said:
My bold.

Something that just struck me reading this is what if Neanderthal DNA didn't drop because it sucked (or because of problems related to birth). What if there were just a lot fewer of them to start with?

For example four grand parents
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + Neanderthal
Neanderthal + Neanderthal
= grand child 37% Neanderthal

AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + Neanderthal
AMH + Neanderthal
= grand child 25% Neanderthal

AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + Neanderthal
= grand child 12.5% Neanderthal

eight great grandparents
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + AMH
AMH + Neanderthal
= grand child 6% Neanderthal

not sure if that makes sense or not?

Very likely it was the case, that there were always more humans around than Neanderthals therefore level of their DNA in human genome was always smaller. If there was 3 Neanderthal for every 97 humans we could explain 3% just mathematically. I'm suspecting the steady level of 3% was important and minimum to survive up North, therefore we can say more fit for the climatic zone and local fauna and flora, diseases included. Natural selection in action. Otherwise Neanderthal DNA would drop to 0% overwhelmed by sheer number of humans and their DNA. However, in Europeans, it is stubbornly stuck around "magical" 3% for last 50 thousand years. It means a lot.

holderlin · Jun 22, 2016

I just wanted to post that we officially know now that the Villabruna allele sharing with the Middle East was in fact from WHG or the like in or near Anatolia and the Caucuses.

PaleoRevenge · Dec 25, 2016

In Paleolithic Europe there was a unique variant which has been coined as the Cro-Magnon man, not all paleolithic skulls belonged to this type. Cro-Magnon exemplars are fascinating for heaving very advanced features, large brains/cranium, high straight foreheads, wide faces but mesocephalic, strong positive chins and very muscular. I wonder to which haplogroup the Cro-Magnons belonged to and their genetic legacy.

Fire Haired14 · Dec 25, 2016

PaleoRevenge said:
I wonder to which haplogroup the Cro-Magnons belonged to and their genetic legacy.

Check if the DNA taken from Paleo Europeans in the study discussed in this thread are from archaeological sites with Cro Magnon types. The genomes belonged mostly to Y DNA C1 and I and mtDNA M* and U; U5*, U2*, U*, U8* pre-U2e, U6, others.

Their closest relatives today are Europeans. Modern Europeans are a mixture of known Mesolithic/Late Paleo populations. To examine their genetic legacy further lets examine their relationship to the Mesolithic/Late Paleo ancestors of Europeans. They share sometype of common ancestry with all of them. They're closest to WHG, the primary Mesolithic/Late Paleo people of Europe. WHG though probably isn't their direct descendant but its ancestors may be unsampled groups of Paleo Europeans.

Basically Paleo Europeans genetically are what you would expect; extinct but related to the ancestors of many modern people(esp. Europeans). They belonged to extinct mtDNA/Y DNA which was related to modern WHG-descended Y DNA/mtDNA: They had I* instead of I2 or I1, they had U5* instead of U5b or U5a, they had pre-U2e instead of U2e, they had U8* instead of U8a1a, and so on.

LeBrok · Dec 25, 2016

PaleoRevenge said:
In Paleolithic Europe there was a unique variant which has been coined as the Cro-Magnon man, not all paleolithic skulls belonged to this type. Cro-Magnon exemplars are fascinating for heaving very advanced features, large brains/cranium,

Oh, you are so romantic about them, that it is almost cute. You should know that bigger doesn't mean smarter. We, people with smaller brains, have build the civilization, not them.
Is cellphone smarter than big supercomputer of 80s?

high straight foreheads,

Straight? I think you confused them with Early Farmers.

wide faces but mesocephalic, strong positive chins and very muscular.

Wow, so handsome, to bad they couldn't write or we knew how smart they were.

The genetic history of Ice Age Europe

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