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Thread: R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    When they say "Pre-Bell-Beaker" do they mean that he was no BB or that he was ancestral to BB?
    I'm not 100% sure, but I think that they mean "ancestral to BB".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    and that G2a Oetzi used copper tools
    This doesn't really tell us anything about Oetzi's profession.

    Right now I'm using a smartphone - but I didn't produce it.

    Why do you assume that Oetzi personally made those tools?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I tend to agree. I see some people still pushing the whole "metallurgy in western Europe came from Yamnaya people" scenario. Have they forgotten that Yamnaya was initially very primitive in terms of metallurgy, and borrowed the technology from others? Have they also forgotten that Remedello in northern Italy had copper metallurgy and were I2a typically Middle Neolithic people autosomally, and that G2a Oetzi used copper tools and more importantly had arsenic in his blood and so might have been a copper worker? Corded Ware barely had copper metallurgy when it was expanding.

    As for J2, it's obvious that at some point J2 dominated cultures became highly skilled metalworkers.

    I'm skeptical about all this speculation in the absence of hard data.

    As for Iberian Bell Beaker, we should know very soon what yDna and autosomal signature they carried. I will say that a lot of the Beaker settlements in Iberia look coastal, with the large riverine ones perhaps spreading from the coast:

    For another view of the origin of Bell Beaker-The dogma of the Iberian origin of Bell Beaker:
    http://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/index.php...e/view/112/113

    If it didn't originate in Iberia all bets would be off.

    Does anyone know whether the Bell Beaker samples being tested by the Reich Lab include any from Los Millares? You'd have to be very careful about the dating though, as there are definitely different stages, an earlier Megalithic one and then a Bell Beaker one. Also, it's always looked to me as if there was definitely a new population movement into the area, and not necessarily from Europe.

    Where they came from and what y signatures they carried is a whole other story.

    "Los Millares was constructed in three phases, each phase increasing the level of fortification. The fortification is not unique to the Mediterranean area of the 3rd millinnum; other sites with bastions and defensive towers include the sites of Jericho, Ai, and Aral (in Palestine) and Lebous, Boussargues and Campe of Laures( in France)."
    http://archaeology.about.com/od/mter...s_millares.htm

    Their y signature might have been J2 for all we know.

    See also:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Millares
    "Similarities between Los Millares architecture and the step pyramid at Monte d'Accoddi inSardinia have been noticed.
    just for the record, Los Millares were not BB, at least not in origin
    first BB appeared outside the walls of Zambujal in Portugal
    Zumbujal was a walled city in which copper ores were smelted, just like Los Millares
    Los Millares is a few centuries older than first BB

    anyway it would be nice to have some early Iberian BB DNA, and Csépel BB DNA would be very interesting too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    If no copper how could they get the idea?
    I was just saying that invention of metallurgy doesn't need to correlate with areas of most abondance of metal.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    anyway it would be nice to have some early Iberian BB DNA
    David Reich's team is currently working on it, AFAIK.

    As for me - I expect R1b to be a minority in early Iberian BB, but I think some will be there.

    The majority will be typically Megalithic haplogroups.

    It seems that Davidski (Eurogenes/Polishgenes) thinks that there will be no R1b in Iberian BB.

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    Tomenable;479662]Is it about me ??? Of course I'm not saying that metallurgy came to Europe from Yamnaya.

    I'm saying that R1b men from the Balkans or from the Middle East introduced metallurgy to Yamnaya.
    No, I wasn't thinking of you. As to the second statement, how can we possibly know whether the metal workers of the Balkans were R1b? The likelihood is surely greater at this point that they were either G2a like Oetzi or I2a. That's not to say there might not have been some R1b among them. The point is that this is total speculation with not one scrap of data upon which to base it.

    They were just native Farmers of the area - not people responsible for spreading metallurgy.
    No, actually they weren't just native farmers of the area. They had many of the indicia of an Indo-European culture. That's why Gimbutas, David Anthony, and Jean Manco were originally convinced that they were people of the steppe. They were also indeed skilled metallurgists.

    See:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/...hp/t-2685.html
    "Yamnaya elements in the Remedello culture, such as single graves, copper-arsenic alloys and tanged daggers."

    "The Remedello-Rinaldone complex (3200-2500 B.C.) bears all the marks of an Indo-European invasion: a new style of ceramics, a new burial rite, changes in the social structure, the introduction of a warrior aristocracy, the introduction of metallurgy, the horse and the chariot."

    The Remedello samples from Allentoft et al are all I2a and are dated as follows:
    Sample: RISE487
    cal BC: 3483-3107 cal BC (Remedello I)
    Sample: RISE489
    cal BC: 2908-2578 cal BC (Remedello I-II)
    Sample: RISE486
    cal BC: 2134-1773 cal BC (Remedello III)

    Two out of the three are after David Anthony's dates for the move up the Danube of the Yamnaya people (the earliest date given is 3100 BC and the later one is 2800 BC). One out of the three is very late indeed. Yet, still I2a and still autosomally Oetzi like.

    Obviously, they were also already working with arsenical copper in Remedello I, before any of these movements, because Oetzi was carrying a Remedello style copper ax in 3300 BC.

    I think the early technology probably thus did come from the Balkan However, there's no R1b around to date. (That early mine in Liguria is dated to 3500 BC.)

    The Bell Beaker phase is not until 2400 BC, and the Bell Beaker metallurgy here is actually less advanced, which makes me think that if there was any influx of steppe people, this is when it took place.

    The only autosomal change is in the very late Bell Beaker phase, in one sample, and it's very slight.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/...hp/t-1389.html

    See: Allentoft et al:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture14507.html

    Cultural and technological changes are not always brought about by large movements of people. The Fu et al paper has pointed that out in showing that regardless of the cultural similarities the Gravettian of Europe had nothing to do with Mal'ta.

    What does it mean "copper worker" - physical labourer, simple miner? Surely not a skilled blacksmith.
    All we know is that he carried a Remedello style ax, from metal mined in Italy, and they found copper and arsenic during an analysis of his hair, so metallurgy was taking place and he was taking part in it.

    "Ötzi’s hair also offered clues about the time in which he lived and his potential occupation. Analysis of Ötzi’s hair found traces of arsenic and copper particles and when combined with the copper axe which was found alongside his remains, some researchers have determined that he was involved in copper smelting."

    A close examination – Ötzi’s axe

    The metal for the axe edge was smelted from copper ore. It was then heated into a molten state and cast. Finally shaping was accomplished by cold-forging. The edge shows clear signs of use and resharpening with a whetstone.

    I suppose it's also possible that Otzi got that copper and arsenic in him when sharpening the blade?

    Now, since Otzi and his ax are dated to 3300 BC, and the axe is Remedello type, the people of Remedello were doing this work before any movement from the steppe. (In fact, Otzi's axe is older than the oldest Remedello axe found.)Again, I think it's Balkan and if the technology was not brought by G2a people, might have been brought by I2a people. After all, Remedello seems to be all I2a, and for hundreds of years.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=kQ...20type&f=false


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    More:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks...western_Africa



    Someone should test Y-DNA haplogroups of different Western African blacksmiths.

    It might turn out that most of them share a common ancestor who lived ca. 1500 BC.
    Yes I've been hoping someone would do that.

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    @Angela


    I see some people still pushing the whole "metallurgy in western Europe came from Yamnaya people" scenario. Have they forgotten that Yamnaya was initially very primitive in terms of metallurgy, and borrowed the technology from others?

    It's a bunch of ideas jumbled together so to clarify what I'm saying is:


    1) The idea of endogamous metal working castes spreading certain dna in small amounts over wide areas. This possibility is a thing in itself - separate from what specific dna it was and where from.


    2) Then if (1) is correct a debate over where from.


    3) The idea that if (2) is correct there might be stages to it related to basic vs advanced metallurgy i.e. basic copper working is cold working - hammering copper into simple shapes like beads - like the steppe guy with 200+ copper beads. Later advances brought smelting etc into the mix. My view is that the first stage would most likely occur where copper is easily found on the surface. Later advances might happen elsewhere and lead to similar but possibly different dna caste expansions on that basis.


    My view probably wasn't clear but it's that the first cold working stage would likely start in regions like Kargaly (there may be others as well) because of the size of the copper field. I don't think the more advanced stages necessarily did - and in fact I think it is *unlikely* simply due to lack of wood - so a backflow of the more advanced processes onto the steppe wouldn't surprise me.


    If the Kargaly part is true - and maybe it isn't - then for me the most likely location for the smelting advance would be nearby locations that had both lots of copper and lots of wood e.g. Caucasus, Balkans and *if* there were secondary expansions caused by advances in metallurgy *and* the caste idea is correct then the ydna associated could flip with the advances (if you see what I mean).


    For example
    - cold working caste with dna y1 from Kargaly
    - dna y1 moves to Caucasus/Balkans, develops more advanced metallurgy, picks up dna y2
    - dna y2 moves to Cyprus
    - dna y2 moves to Iberia


    #


    so
    - agree with the possibility of the metal working caste
    - disagree over where the first stage may have started
    - neutral where secondary stages may have started

    That may be clearer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    Smith is the most common surname in Britain. Kowalski (= "Smithski") is the most common surname in Poland. The profession was hereditary. If one clan invented furnace metallurgy, they kept the secret to themselves for as long as possible.

    And all early smiths around Western Eurasia were likely descended from those very first smiths.
    It prove your point you would need to present data that haplogroups of Kowalski or Smiths are substantially different from haplogroups of general population. Are there Kowalski or Smith families projects, and results available online?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    After ENF = 60% G2a does anyone still believe in rapid cultural transitions without migrating people involved? :) It is obvious that early diffusion of advanced metallurgy = a demographic event (migrations of hereditary smiths). "Early Blacksmith Modal Haplotype" surely existed.
    There is a difference. Spreading farming required spreading farming genes. So far there was no HG genetic community in Eurasia who learned to farm without genetic transfer, not even recent prairie Indians or Australian Aborigines. Don't take me wrong, they can understand the concept, they just don't care for it. And of course some individuals in these communities will be up for it, but not the general population.
    Now unlike farming, spread of metallurgy didn't require spreading genes with knowledge. Sure a trade used to run in family as hereditary thing, but I'm not sure if it had trans-cultural effect. However if it is true, then we need to find out who had spread clay pots and ceramic in general into all hunter gatherer communities of Eurasia?

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    Spreading farming required spreading farming genes.
    What ??? Sorry but farming is much easier to learn than mastering the art of metal working.

    So spreading advanced metallurgy required spreading even more of metallurgical genes.

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    BTW - it is clear that modern so called "EEF" admixture in Europe is not in fact EEF, but something which came later.

    Because G2a in Europe is almost extinct today, but EEF is not. Probably more "EEF-like" admixture came with R1b.

    Unless you believe that all of EEF admixture in Europe today was mediated via women!

    But Steppe admixture could be mediated to Western Europe via CWC women as well.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    What ??? Sorry but farming is much easier to learn than mastering the art of metal working.
    .
    Nobody said it is very hard to learn. It is about changing life style, liking it, working all the time tending to animals and fields, eating a lot of starches and liking it and staying healthy with such diet, etc. Most of these adaptations are genetic in core. Teaching and learning farming skills is an easy part. Doing it and living it is difficult for HGs. ;)

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    Doing it and living it is difficult for HGs. ;)
    And that's why modern Europe is entirely dominated by Hunter-Gatherer Y-DNA haplogroups - R1b, R1a, I1 and I2 ???

    All those haplogroups were part of WHG, SHG, EHG (perhaps also CHG): none of them came with Early Neolithic Farmers.

    ENF males failed in Europe, they almost got exterminated by descendants of Hunter-Gatherers, who took their women.

    Even your and my Y-DNA comes from either EHG, WHG or CHG - despite your Pro-Farmer attitude... :)))

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    Well, R1a and R1b could be originally ANE haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And that's why modern Europe is entirely dominated by Hunter-Gatherer Y-DNA haplogroups - R1b, R1a, I1 and I2 ???

    All those haplogroups were part of WHG, SHG, EHG (perhaps also CHG): none of them came with Early Neolithic Farmers.

    ENF males failed in Europe, they almost got exterminated by descendants of Hunter-Gatherers, who took their women.

    Even your and my Y-DNA comes from either EHG, WHG or CHG - despite your Pro-Farmer attitude... :)))
    Y is only 2% of DNA, responsible for making a man, not making a farmer or not. All Europeans have at least 40% of EEF genes, and this is where farming predisposition is. Prove me wrong and find pure HG community who took to farming. All existing HGs were exposed to farmers and their knowledge of farming for few hundred years now. You shouldn't have a problem finding them, right? All it takes, according to you, is to learn how. It should be easy. :)))

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It prove your point you would need to present data that haplogroups of Kowalski or Smiths are substantially different from haplogroups of general population. Are there Kowalski or Smith families projects, and results available online?
    Difficult in Europe but in places like Nepal there are groups which still contain caste based professions and some of those groups have been dna tested but as far as i'm aware there wasn't any attempt to see if the group dna had professional structure within it i.e. if the copper workers were one thing and the saddle makers something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There is a difference. Spreading farming required spreading farming genes. So far there was no HG genetic community in Eurasia who learned to farm without genetic transfer, not even recent prairie Indians or Australian Aborigines. Don't take me wrong, they can understand the concept, they just don't care for it. And of course some individuals in these communities will be up for it, but not the general population.
    Now unlike farming, spread of metallurgy didn't require spreading genes with knowledge. Sure a trade used to run in family as hereditary thing, but I'm not sure if it had trans-cultural effect. However if it is true, then we need to find out who had spread clay pots and ceramic in general into all hunter gatherer communities of Eurasia?
    Personally I think that is maybe where the East Asian admixture comes from. There were pottery using sedentary HGs around the Black Sea before pottery reached the middle east.

    edit: which hints at the route taken

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    I think it was easier to inherit smith profession than chieftain's. If we talk about military democracy societies?
    Or so I heard. Happy to be proven wrong.

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    Fun Fact. In late medieval / early modern Greek we used the term 'γύφτος' (='gypsy') with the meaning "smith, ironworker". I wonder where they got their "metallurgical genes".

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    I think it was easier to inherit smith profession than chieftain's. If we talk about military democracy societies?
    Or so I heard. Happy to be proven wrong.
    Yes. If there were metal working castes in the copper age like the existing ones in India, Africa etc then you'd imagine they wouldn't stay completely endogamous forever especially if that caste system broke down - but maybe they did for a while?

    In which case evidence might show up in ancient dna or in cultures where the caste system lasted longest? For example the Newars of Nepal have a variety of ydna and also profession castes. It would be interesting if there was structure to it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newar_...nd_communities

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...mportant-races

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    Difficult in Europe but in places like Nepal there are groups which still contain caste based professions and some of those groups have been dna tested but as far as i'm aware there wasn't any attempt to see if the group dna had professional structure within it i.e. if the copper workers were one thing and the saddle makers something else.
    Perhaps there is some validity to it.

  23. #48
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    to Greying Wanderer:
    your #32 post is a good starting point, I think

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    BTW - it is clear that modern so called "EEF" admixture in Europe is not in fact EEF, but something which came later.

    Because G2a in Europe is almost extinct today, but EEF is not. Probably more "EEF-like" admixture came with R1b.

    Unless you believe that all of EEF admixture in Europe today was mediated via women!

    But Steppe admixture could be mediated to Western Europe via CWC women as well.
    None of that is clear at all. In fact, the data points to the exact opposite conclusion.

    See the following analysis which has two "farmer" clusters and a Yamnaya cluster as well. Look at the "farmer" numbers for the Nordic Bronze Age. You can even see when the Yamnaya came in and the drop in the farmer numbers began. They're not very different at all from the Haak et al numbers for the ancient samples. They're also not far from from modern levels.
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-O...RzQ/view?pli=1



    Areas to the south are going to have higher levels in part because there wasn't as large a refugia or reservoir for the WHG, and partly because of population crashes in central Europe.

    Whether some people like it or not, the Near Eastern farmers had a large input into the genomes of all Europeans.

    As for this question of uniparental markers, haven't we learned, with J2 EHGs, Spanish farmer R1bs, and now an R1b WHG that they are unreliable in terms of total genetic make-up?

    In terms of this association of certain yDna lines with certain professions, it's possible, but I'm personally wary of generalizing what may be the case in India, for example, to the situation everywhere in the world. They're quite mad for divisions of people into multiple isolated breeding groups, with the unavoidable consequences for genetic fitness.

    Generally, also, it's important to keep in mind, I think, that civilization grows by increments. Farming was a huge leap forward. Actual metallurgy arose in that context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Y is only 2% of DNA, responsible for making a man, not making a farmer or not.
    But this 2% makes you who you are.

    Your identity is not based on your liver or intestine,
    which can be even 100% genetically pygmies, but
    you are who you are, becasue of your sex 2% gene.
    98% id about flesh form. 2% is about humanity.
    And this is most important part of you, not toes.

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