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Thread: R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    But this 2% makes you who you are.

    Your identity is not based on your liver or intestine,
    which can be even 100% genetically pygmies, but
    you are who you are, becasue of your sex 2% gene.
    98% id about flesh form. 2% is about humanity.
    And this is most important part of you, not toes.
    Oh now I understand, 2% makes your humanity, which is your penis and mustache, lol. The rest, 98% of "inhumanity" genes give you brain with logic and emotions, skin colour, handsome face (or not), coordination, sense of rhythm or lack of it, digestive preferences for certain foods, traits of character, ability to speak and love, etc. However in your case, your 98% definitely lacks logic, kindness and good manners. Perhaps, your 2% can help you with it. ;)
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Oh now I understand, 2% makes your humanity, which is your penis and mustache, lol. The rest, 98% of "inhumanity" genes give you brain with logic and emotions, skin colour, handsome face (or not), coordination, sense of rhythm or lack of it, digestive preferences for certain foods, traits of character, ability to speak and love, etc. However in your case, your 98% definitely lacks logic, kindness and good manners. Perhaps, your 2% can help you with it. ;)
    As always...


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    It is only a thought newly come to my mind:
    Metals could be linked to Y-R1 or Y-J2 fellows, even if I think that the Y-R1 fellows were perhaps not the best placed to promote them; it's true Y-R1a or Y-R1b are large bags and were in fact a family whose children lived very different lifes.
    But I begin to see that at Chalcolithic and Early BA in Central Europe Y-I2 of any kind (but more some of the Y-I2a2) begun to improve their health or their reproductive rate, as in Hungary or in Unetice (not speaking of too "familial" Liechtenstein Cave/Untrut); Would it be a resurgence at metals after Neolithic? Linked to what precisely? more attrait or skills for metallic weapons send by others? I 'm eager to see more ancient Y-DNA of these times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I tend to agree. I see some people still pushing the whole "metallurgy in western Europe came from Yamnaya people" scenario. Have they forgotten that Yamnaya was initially very primitive in terms of metallurgy, and borrowed the technology from others?
    Concerning the Yamnaya steppe scenario.Let 's note that Corded Ware people are so far mostly R1a and Yamnaya R1b. Furthermore, all R1b-L51 aDNA are in Western Europe in Bronze Age but nothing in Pontic Steppe. It's look like that the strange Yamnaya migration scenario had wheels, horses but, more importantly, it missed the men and his Y-DNA.
    Last edited by Voyager; 07-06-16 at 14:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    It is only a thought newly come to my mind:
    Metals could be linked to Y-R1 or Y-J2 fellows, even if I think that the Y-R1 fellows were perhaps not the best placed to promote them; it's true Y-R1a or Y-R1b are large bags and were in fact a family whose children lived very different lifes.
    But I begin to see that at Chalcolithic and Early BA in Central Europe Y-I2 of any kind (but more some of the Y-I2a2) begun to improve their health or their reproductive rate, as in Hungary or in Unetice (not speaking of too "familial" Liechtenstein Cave/Untrut); Would it be a resurgence at metals after Neolithic? Linked to what precisely? more attrait or skills for metallic weapons send by others? I 'm eager to see more ancient Y-DNA of these times.
    Speculating

    if ydna I
    - was associated with mountainous regions for some reason
    - in the metal ages, miners and metal workers moved to those mountainous areas looking for ore
    that might have led to a local alliance between ydna I and R1 in one or more regions

    then

    if miners and metal workers were generally the first to get a good supply of
    - copper weapons
    - bronze weapons
    - iron weapons
    you might see dramatic expansions of ydna R1 and I together from ore producing regions at various times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Concerning the Yamnaya steppe scenario.Let 's note that Corded Ware people are so far mostly R1a and Yamnaya R1b. Furthermore, all R1b-L51 aDNA are in Western Europe in Bronze Age but nothing in Pontic Steppe. It's look like that the strange Yamnaya migration scenario had wheels, horses but, more importantly, it missed the men and his Y-DNA.
    If the R1b in modern Europeans did start on the steppe then it seems they must have expanded first and were then displaced on the steppe by the R1a expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    If the R1b in modern Europeans did start on the steppe then it seems they must have expanded first and were then displaced on the steppe by the R1a expansion.
    This does not solve the fact that there is no R1b-L51 in the Steppes at all so far but only among early Bronze Age Bell Beakers in Western Europe. If R1b came from the Steppes in 4500 bp we should find this 6000 years old mutation R1b-L51 there, this is not the case so far then I doubt. I would wait for an R1b-L51 in the Steppe aDNA first to clear these doubts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    This does not solve the fact that there is no R1b-L51 in the Steppes at all so far but only among early Bronze Age Bell Beakers in Western Europe. If R1b came from the Steppes in 4500 bp we should find this 6000 years old mutation R1b-L51 there, this is not the case so far then I doubt. I would wait for an R1b-L51 in the Steppe aDNA first to clear these doubts.
    true enough

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    Speculating

    if ydna I
    - was associated with mountainous regions for some reason
    - in the metal ages, miners and metal workers moved to those mountainous areas looking for ore
    that might have led to a local alliance between ydna I and R1 in one or more regions

    then

    if miners and metal workers were generally the first to get a good supply of
    - copper weapons
    - bronze weapons
    - iron weapons
    you might see dramatic expansions of ydna R1 and I together from ore producing regions at various times.
    I red this suggestion some time ago. I suppose it was yours?
    All the way, it's not stupid at all and deserves attention.
    Mountains? Curiously enough, a lot of the today peaks in Europe are in mountainous regions. But we would need to have more detailed subclades of y-I2a2. The mountainous aspect could look evident enough if we consider that during first developments of Neolithic way of life, the newcomers could have pushed or induced the "autochtonous population" (Y-I2 for the most) into remote corners of the lands, far from fertile plains. What puzzles me is the very spotty distribution of Y-I2a2 compared to big bits of lands occuped by Y-I2a1b as a whole. Which I2a2 took part in the metals story? I don't know for sure. The L28 one? (if I don't mistake the subclade name): I think into the big concentration of I2a2 in Switzerland (Celts?) but I'm not sure it's the same dominant clade in Northern Germany. I 'll have to go deeper if I find data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I red this suggestion some time ago. I suppose it was yours?
    All the way, it's not stupid at all and deserves attention.
    Mountains? Curiously enough, a lot of the today peaks in Europe are in mountainous regions. But we would need to have more detailed subclades of y-I2a2. The mountainous aspect could look evident enough if we consider that during first developments of Neolithic way of life, the newcomers could have pushed or induced the "autochtonous population" (Y-I2 for the most) into remote corners of the lands, far from fertile plains. What puzzles me is the very spotty distribution of Y-I2a2 compared to big bits of lands occuped by Y-I2a1b as a whole. Which I2a2 took part in the metals story? I don't know for sure. The L28 one? (if I don't mistake the subclade name): I think into the big concentration of I2a2 in Switzerland (Celts?) but I'm not sure it's the same dominant clade in Northern Germany. I 'll have to go deeper if I find data.
    Yes. It struck me some time ago if you subtracted the ydna I1 that is thought to have been carried along with the Germanic expansion then what you have left correlates quite strongly with mountainous regions.

    If that correlation was correct then it made me think ydna I might be connected to refuge survival and then later in some places (Pyrenees? Harz? Scandi?) a later movement into those mountains of miners/metalworkers might have forged an alliance with the local variety of ydna I.

    In other regions maybe that mining connection was never made and so the local variety of ydna I never expanded out of the refuge.

    If correct it will very much be a local sub-clade thing rather than ydna I as a whole (although the pattern may have repeated more than once).

    #

    edit

    I was thinking something similar with G and J a while back (as IJ are related). I was thinking J in mountain refuges somewhere getting picked up by a farmer expansion somehow and carried along with it like rocks in a glacier - although not so sure about that now.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    IN fact in previous dreams of mine I wondered if some Y-I2a2 were not the "first" BBs taking Y-R1b in a metals trip around Western Europe.
    When calculating the ratio of Y-I2a2 opposed to Y-I2a1 and Y-I1, the denser places are in Western Europe, not in North or South or East, as well among future Celtic as among Ligurian or Italic world, born in some way around the BBs network.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    IN fact in previous dreams of mine I wondered if some Y-I2a2 were not the "first" BBs taking Y-R1b in a metals trip around Western Europe.
    When calculating the ratio of Y-I2a2 opposed to Y-I2a1 and Y-I1, the denser places are in Western Europe, not in North or South or East, as well among future Celtic as among Ligurian or Italic world, born in some way around the BBs network.
    Yes if the correlation (ydna I and mountains) exists it could be the other way round.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    This does not solve the fact that there is no R1b-L51 in the Steppes at all so far but only among early Bronze Age Bell Beakers in Western Europe. If R1b came from the Steppes in 4500 bp we should find this 6000 years old mutation R1b-L51 there, this is not the case so far then I doubt. I would wait for an R1b-L51 in the Steppe aDNA first to clear these doubts.
    Good remark. Without any prejudice, I say: have we Y-DNA of Western Yamnaya??? I think we have only the Samara sort?
    If you know other Yamnaya people studied for Y-DNA, let me know. I know some other sites had been studied but I forgot their localization. Perhaps I missed some posts.
    Thanks in advance.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Sample I1635 (2619-2465 BC) from Kura-Araxes culture is R1b:

    https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/...92603424456704

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1635/

    This culture is definitely linked with the diffusion of metallurgy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura%E...Araxes_culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Sample I1635 (2619-2465 BC) from Kura-Araxes culture is R1b:

    https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/...92603424456704

    This culture is definitely linked with the diffusion of metallurgy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura%E...Araxes_culture
    More precisely:
    I1635 (Armenia_EBA) is R1b1-M415(xM269)

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    Yes it is not M269 but some very rare (?) branch. It is also not V88.

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    It may be L389*, which exists in Armenia also today, albeit at low frequency.

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    withoutdenying the possible specific link of Y-R1b with metallurgy, I keepon with my Y-I2a2 story, at the mergin.
    Y-I2a2a-M223,roughly today Germano-Scandinavian, withpicks in Germanyand North-East Sweden,is present at lower levels around the Black Sea, inNorth Russia, Eastern Romania/Moldova, Italy,Greece, West , North-Westand Southern Franceand also a bit in Near-East and North Africa. The presence in S-EEurope could be the result of Goths and other Varengians. Maybe a too"general" andspred SNPtomake conclusions?Accordingto Maciamo its other subclades check diverse events among whoseVikings and Normans moves.
    itssubclade Y-I2a2a1-M284 is present in Britain and Portugal, rarer inIrelandexceptNorth-East butlinked there to supposed Pictish elites surely come from ScotlandspiteWikipedia speaks of Gaelic surnames.ALa Tène package doesn'nt infirm nor confrm both celtic origin.Itsown subcladeY-I2a2a1a-L126/S165 is the densest in Scotland, surely not an hazardresult evocatingPicts.Sure we could see in it a pre-Germanic haplo having participated inthe Germanics moves, maybe even before the great barbarian migrationsinto Britain and Iberia. A possible ancient mix germanic-celtic amongsome Picts? Ormore simply two distinct successive arrivals in North Britain, thelast with Anglo-Saxons and other Germanics ?
    Y-I2a2b-L38/S154,found in Lichtenstein cave linked to Unstrut lateral culture ofUrnfields, seems more strictlylinked to Celtic or proto-Celtic ina post-BB context;thedominance of mt-H before mt-U5 there points also to a post-BB stage;it could be come from SouthernGermanyas the relatively high incidence in Switzerlandand Alsace among future places of La Tène seemspermitting.Ahigh enough density in Alpine Italy, Eastern France, Beneluxand Britain except Western Britain seems confirming that ; itcould be exemplary of celtic tribes of Belgia (other tribes weregermanic and maybe old macro-italic remote tribes living alongside).Someones spoke of a possible Dniestr-Carpathian trail until CentralEurope.
    Iwould be glad iif I had confirmation of it. The Carpathian Romaniaseems having been rich for mt-H (H5 the most) since LN. Y-I2a2has been found among anDNA in Steppes too, but what subclade andwhere from ? One of my old dreams was some subclades of Y-I2a2were strong enough around the Cucuteni-Tripolye area and after sometime of isolation, participated in the metals development ofEast-Central Europe along bearers of other Y-haplos.
    Justfor the fun.
    Concerning Y-R1b in Armenia and Southern Caucasus I maintain to date my first statements: seems more kind of dead end than the center of diffusion of the M269 clades involved in Eurasia big trips. Maybe North Armenia was crossed by other R1b people not staying there and passing northward. I don't know just now.

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    Bump.

    I was right about R1b all over Mesolithic and Post-Mesolithic Balkans!

    Including Varna culture!

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    I confess I never did guess this! (shame on me)
    I 'll try - if I can - to look at the geographic/mesologic localization of all these Y-R1b and also I2a2 of ancient Balkans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Bump.

    I was right about R1b all over Mesolithic and Post-Mesolithic Balkans!

    Including Varna culture!
    What exactly does that mean? As in, not literally, but inference-wise?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Hovhannisyan et al, 2014 also found that the variance of R1b-M269 is heavily concentrated in eastern Anatolia, the Kura-Araxes sample belonging to a brother clade ofR1b-M269 also supports those findings.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    From Ancient Europe by Stuart Piggott (an Oldie but Goodie, p. 102-3):

    Our technological enquiry into the beginnings of European metalworking can now be taken to its final stage with the examination of some rather puzzling phenomena. In an area of southern central Europe, north of the Alps and lying roughly between the modern towns of Bern, Vienna, Frankfurt, and Dresden, a consistent series of new types of copper tools, weapons, and ornaments appear overlapping with the end of the Bell-Beaker phase, but not themselves of beaker forms. Furthermore, they replace the beaker metal types and are the prototypes for the whole rich series of bronzes which follow thereafter and dominate the greater part of Europe. The new features include the techniques of riveting a dagger-blade into its haft instead of using a tang as in the beaker tradition; the use of ornaments including spiral wire pendants and ingot-torcs (necklets with returned ends that could also be used as units of copper); and the use of garments fastened by pins instead of buttons....They owe nothing to anything which goes before in Europe, but riveted daggers were the normal Near Eastern type, and the ingot-torcs and specific pin forms do in fact occur in several Near Eastern sites, but especially those in Syria such as Byblos and Ugarit, during a limited period of time around 2000—1800 B.C. Furthermore, the grave-finds in central Europe show a swing-over in the warrior's equipment from the beaker tradition of bow and arrow, to that of the dagger and axe: this change in weapons means a change in tactics to one also current in contemporary Syria. (Fig. 56)

    It looks therefore as if shortly after 2000 B.C. contact was established between the metal-smiths and merchants of Syria and the peoples and copper ores of south-central Europe; spectrographic analysis shows that the metal deposits of the Tyrol and elsewhere in central Europe were now being worked. But by what route could such contact be made? The distribution in Europe of the types in question show that while some are found as far east as the River Tisza, they do not occur further east, and the majority are not found further down the Danube than just beyond Vienna. A route up the Danube from the east to south-central Europe seems then unlikely, and we must consider the possibility of trade from the head of the Adriatic over a 200 mile-long route probably crossing the Alps by the St Gothard Pass....And if we look for occasions which might prompt such merchant venturing from the Levant, the disturbed conditions precipitated by the Amorite and other raids at the beginning of the second millennium might well play their part, with the dislocation of previous trading arrangements, and a consequent impetus to seek new metal resources in the outer barbarian world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    From Ancient Europe by Stuart Piggott (an Oldie but Goodie, p. 102-3):
    Very interesting. I need to look into it further.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    In another thread (link) I've argued that R1b-L51 (or pre-L51 ancestral lineages of L23) was never present on the Steppe, but was responsible for spreading early metallurgy directly from the Middle East to Western Europe:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Ice-Age-Europe

    Here I present some evidence linking the rapid expansion of L23 lineages with the spread of metallurgy.

    These are excerpts of "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations" by Nissim Amzallag:

    http://www.ajaonline.org/article/300

    Rapid diffusion of metallurgy in the 4th millennium BC can be linked with expansion of R1b M269/L23:



    Metallurgy expanded north with Maykop culture, which contributed R1b-Z2103 to Yamnaya:



    Metallurgy expanded to Iberia across the Mediterranean region and later with Bell Beakers:



    And a map showing how R1b-L51 or maybe pre-L51 L23 (ancestral to ATP3 and Bell Beaker) migrated:



    Previously I've pointed out, that some of the most basal lineages of L51 can be found in Sardinia:

    Great point about the Sardinians. I totally agree about L51 crossing the Med. to form the Beaker culture, again despite Olalde. L23 could be from West Asia or the Balkans, I'm not sure, but I suspect the Balkans. If not L23, then M269.

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