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Thread: R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Those R1b Beakers first expanded eastward, towards Germany and Central Europe in general. Later in Germany (or in Central Europe in general) they mixed with immigrants from the Steppe, acquired Steppe admixture (perhaps mediated mostly via women) and some cultural elements. After that, there was a "back-migration" from Germany to Britain and other parts of Western Europe.

    That's when modern subclades of R1b - such as L21, U152, etc. - really started to dominate numerically.

    Those Beakers that had initially expanded from Iberia or South France were not necessarily already L21 or U152.

    They could be mostly L51*, L11*, P312*, U106*, etc.. More common lineages likely expanded later.

    ===============================

    As for smiths and/or traders of metal objects being high-status individuals - check this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmHXBXG7Loo#t=6m20s

    Entirely agreed, I can't see any other alternative that can explain the phylogeny. M269 in the Balkans, to L23 in Anatolia, to L51 across the Mediterranean in SW Europe and Z2103 still somewhere in West Asia. All the way, it seems like they were accompanied by I2a folks, which explains its presence in West Asia but also in Sardinia, Iberia etc. Then we have Z2103 migrating to the Steppe, and the Yamnaya expansions into the Balkans. L51 eventually meets with Corded Ware as L11 and they blend together under the dominance of the Beaker males to form Unetice. U106 then travels West in the direction of the Netherlands, further blending with Corded types in NW mainland Europe (picking up mainly R1a and I1). U106 would also go to Scandinavia. P312 is formed somewhere in between France and Germany, with DF27 going to Iberia, L21 travelling to Britanny as a launching point to Britain and Ireland, and also NW Iberia, and U152 going alpha as Hallstatt and later Le Tene. I'm also reasonably confident that the group that went to the Netherlands and later to Eastern Britain would have been pre-Germanic U106 - it seems likely to me.

    Only points of issue are with languages and with metallurgy. With languages, given the Basque, this hypothesis only works if Western European languages are actually from the Corded Ware culture - they can't be from the Beaker folk, as that's way too old to fit in with the Indo-European family tree. This is completely reasonable as you'd be hard pressed to explain how a minority like the Beakers would change the language of the CWC that far out numbered them. In the case of the IE invasion of India, it's very different and on a much larger scale. With metallurgy, we have to explain how Bronze Age technology spread from East to West - it didn't come from Corded Ware and because it's from East to West it couldn't come from Iberian Beakers, so they would have had to pick it up, perhaps from the nearby Yamnaya. We know the Beakers and Yamnayas came into contact with one another from the spread of Beaker pottery, and we know that metallurgy isn't always spread by invasions (the Bronze Age wasn't entirely spread by R1b...), so it's not too unreasonable that the Beaker folk picked up the techniques.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I genuinely think, through deduction, there's enough information to be very confident in the L51 Iberian Beaker hypothesis. Where the **** did the L51 come from basically! It can't have come from the Balkans as part of the Yamnaya expansion, which was so clearly Z2103 given the Z2103:L51 ratio of the Balkans, which discounts that as the source of Eastern Beaker Steppe. It can't have come from the Steppe through Europe via the Northern European plain with the Corded Ware culture, and it can't have come before it either (otherwise we would have Steppe DNA much earlier in Europe). It is also extremely unlikely it powered all the way to East-Central Europe from the Steppe through Corded Ware, firstly because the Steppe was dominated by Z2103 in the South and R1a in the North with no evidence of any L51 at all, but also because if it had done that it would have left virtually no trace, as we have none to follow - this is very unlikely. So it couldn't have come to Western Europe from the East.

    If we imagine a mixture event, where the Steppe ancestry comes from blending with the Corded Ware folk, THEN we have a good picture. Here, the only plausible picture is that the R1b L51 comes from an Eastwards Beaker migration.

    This, to me, is foolproof. There's lots of other small hints, such as with phenotypes (looking at Baskid+Corded=North Atlantid), but there are a few potential holes (as mentioned above).

    First is language, which can easily be resolved by saying that the Beaker folk who imposed themselves above CW did so as a minority (like we know the Beaker folk always were), and so simply adopted the language of the CWC. When there isn't large scale population replacement, this tends to be the case - for example in Britain the incoming group did replace the language, but not so much in Iberia, where the population was far larger. The second issue is the spread of Bronze metallurgy clearly being from East to West - this can only truly be explained by the Beaker folk learning it somewhere, and we know that the Beaker folk came into contact with the Balkan arm of Yamnaya, where being metallurgists themselves they probably picked up the techniques.

    FOOLPROOF I SAY - FOOLPROOF!

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    Globular Amphora and CWC "cohabited" in some places some time, and we see BB's living almost side by side with CWC in some regions with here and there subsequent crossings, so we cannot do this statement that a clannic culture prevents by force and everytime another clannic culture to take some parts of lands, it occurred more than a time when these cultures were not in a too tight concurrence concerning economy; to allow just a passage accross their lands was even more easy I think.

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    I think this is pretty visionary to be honest - obviously some parts are wrong, but the gist of it I mean.

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