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Thread: R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

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    Lightbulb R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

    In another thread (link) I've argued that R1b-L51 (or pre-L51 ancestral lineages of L23) was never present on the Steppe, but was responsible for spreading early metallurgy directly from the Middle East to Western Europe:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Ice-Age-Europe

    Here I present some evidence linking the rapid expansion of L23 lineages with the spread of metallurgy.

    These are excerpts of "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations" by Nissim Amzallag:

    http://www.ajaonline.org/article/300

    Rapid diffusion of metallurgy in the 4th millennium BC can be linked with expansion of R1b M269/L23:



    Metallurgy expanded north with Maykop culture, which contributed R1b-Z2103 to Yamnaya:



    Metallurgy expanded to Iberia across the Mediterranean region and later with Bell Beakers:



    And a map showing how R1b-L51 or maybe pre-L51 L23 (ancestral to ATP3 and Bell Beaker) migrated:



    Previously I've pointed out, that some of the most basal lineages of L51 can be found in Sardinia:


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    the article starts with the Uruk expansion, no mention of the prior furnace metallurgy in the Balkans

    earliest known Y DNA associated with metallurgy are Ötzi (G2a) and Remedello (I), next is Yamnaya (R1b-Z2103)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    earliest known Y DNA associated with metallurgy are Ötzi (G2a) and Remedello (I)
    G2a and I were just Neolithic natives in the area, not immigrant smiths who introduced metallurgy.

    This is so patently obvious that they were not immigrants.

    What you are just saying is like saying that Q introduced horses to North America because they also rode them.

    There is no evidence that Ötzi was a smith and that he personally produced his copper axe/knife.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    R1b-L23 initially dispersed as smiths & traders who travelled alone and married local women in each region.

    This is why they acquired autosomal DNA of other groups.

    In most regions it was initially a peaceful dispersal. Ötzi was not a producer of metal items, he was a consumer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    R1b-L23 initially dispersed as smiths & traders who travelled alone and married local women in each region.

    This is why they acquired autosomal DNA of other groups.

    In most regions it was initially a peaceful dispersal. Ötzi was not a producer of metal items, he was a consumer.


    Almost all the new threads about ancient DNA this week are concerned by the Y-R1b story, in some way. Localization, date...
    I find interesting the smiths hypothesis but I find very hard to swallow the fact a handfull of first pacific smiths became the basis of Western Europe Y-DNA. It needed surely some well constitued groups of people with other arguments than only metallurgy skills, but I can be wrong, it's true. THat said, surely the most of the Y-R1b bearers associated to the demic "boom" of the 3000 BC in Europe had among them good metallurgists.
    The big dominance of subsequent Y-R1b in tombs in some cultures could very well be explained by this smiths theory, thinking in the elites question in burying of these times. But in today populations?

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    ATP3 (suspected R1b) and ATP20 did not have the same auDNA as other ATP samples:

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...anish-genomes/

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post466264

    Copper Age Iberia samples show clear evidence of two distinct origins of that population.

    As for those R1b-Z2103 men who brought metallurgy to the Steppe (together with CHG ancestry):

    Let's underline that while the PIE did not invent metallurgy (and were not responsible for its initial diffusion), they most likely did acquire the knowledge of metallurgy from some Non-IE group before they started to diverge into branches (i.e. before the end of the PIE linguistic unity). That's probably why the majority of IE ethnic groups have the legend about "the Smith and the Devil" in one variant or another:

    http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.o...ent/3/1/150645

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35358487

    (...) And a folk tale called The Smith And The Devil, about a blacksmith selling his soul in a pact with the Devil in order to gain supernatural abilities, was estimated to go back 6,000 years ago (...)
    L23 goes back 6,200 years ago (TMRCA according to YFull), linking it with the origins of metallurgy and of this folk tale.

    This folk tale was later adopted by the PIE community, at the same time when it adopted metallurgy from R1b-L23.

    Quote:

    (...) In some cases, it may also be possible to evaluate inferences about ancestral tale corpora in relation to other sources of information about past societies, such as historical, archaeological, linguistic and genetic data. Our findings regarding the origins of ATU 330 ‘The Smith and the Devil’ are a case in point. The basic plot of this tale—which is stable throughout the Indo-European speaking world, from India to Scandinavia—concerns a blacksmith who strikes a deal with a malevolent supernatural being (e.g. the Devil, Death, a jinn, etc.). The smith exchanges his soul for the power to weld any materials together, which he then uses to stick the villain to an immovable object (e.g. a tree) to renege on his side of the bargain. The likely presence of this tale in the last common ancestor of Indo-European-speaking cultures resonates strongly with wider debates in Indo-European prehistory, since it implies the existence of metallurgy in Proto-Indo-European society. (...)
    Unfortunately the authors don't say whether this tale about "the Smith & the Devil" exists also in Non-IE folklore traditions.

    My theory is that R1b (mainly M269/L23) were spreading copper metallurgy from the Middle East or/and from the Balkans.

    They likely brought CHG ancestry (aka "Teal" or "Armenian-like") to the Steppe, but were no longer hunter-gatherers by that time. It is not a coincidence that this ancestry appeared in the Volga Steppes in substantial amount for the first time in Khvalynsk folks, who had the knowledge of agriculture (e.g. domesticated cattle and sheep-goat)?:

    Excerpts from page 35 out of 46: http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorx...16477.full.pdf

    "The cemetery of Khvalynsk II, Saratov oblast, Russia, on the west bank of the Volga River,
    6 km north of the village of Alekseevka. Khvalynsk I and II are two parts of the same cemetery,
    excavated in 1977-79 (Khvalynsk I) and 1987-88 (Khvalynsk II).23 The two excavations
    revealed 197 graves, about 10x larger than other cemeteries of this period in the Volga-Ural
    steppes, dated by radiocarbon to 5200-4000 BCE (95.4% confidence). Bones of domesticated
    cattle and sheep-goat
    , and horses of uncertain status, were included in 28 human graves and
    in 10 sacrificial deposits."

    The richest of the three graves from Khvalynsk also happened to be R1b, even though not yet L23:

    "The 367 copper artifacts in the graves, mostly beads and rings, are
    the oldest copper objects in the Volga-Ural steppes, and trace elements and manufacturing
    methods in a few objects suggest trade with southeastern Europe.
    Together with high 15N in
    the human bones from Khvalynsk, which might have caused a reservoir effect making 14C
    dates too old, the circulation of so much copper, which increased in SE Europe after 4700
    BCE, suggests that a date after 4700 BCE would be reasonable for many graves at
    Khvalynsk. Copper was found in 13 adult male graves, 8 adult female graves, and 4 sub-adult
    graves. The unusually large cemetery at Khvalynsk contained southern Europeoid and
    northern Europeoid cranio-facial types, consistent with the possibility that people from the
    northern and southern steppes mingled and were buried here."

    80% of all copper objects were buried together with the R1b man (surely a "coincidence" - he wasn't a smith or a copper trader?):

    "Y- 10122 / SVP35 (grave 12)

    Male (confirmed genetically), age 20-30, positioned on his back with raised knees, with 293
    copper artifacts, mostly beads, amounting to 80% of the copper objects in the combined
    cemeteries of Khvalynsk I and II. Probably a high-status individual, his Y-chromosome
    haplotype, R1b1, also characterized the high-status individuals buried under kurgans in later
    Yamnaya graves in this region, so he could be regarded as a founder of an elite group of
    patrilineally related families.
    His MtDNA haplotype H2a1 is unique in the Samara series."

    And the other guy was one "commoners" (or "R1a outliers" who were in fact the majority - according to my theory):

    "Y- 10433 / SVP46 (grave 1)

    Male (confirmed genetically), age 30-35, positioned on his back with raised knees, with a
    copper ring and a copper bead. His R1a1 haplotype shows that this haplotype was present in
    the region, although it is not represented later in high-status Yamnaya graves.
    His U5a1i
    MtDNA haplotype is part of a U5a1 group well documented in the Samara series."

    After Khvalynsk we see the influx of even more CHG ancestry into the Steppe, and the influx of more R1b.

    Do you think that the gradual increase of CHG ancestry had nothing to do with immigration of R1b ???

    Do you think that people who brought that ancestry did not bring agriculture and copper with them ???

    Also - my idea is that R1b was never the majority, but always the minority, of the Yamna male population.

    But they were smiths - and as such they were considered to be men with magical abilities, therefore they were initially overrepresented in kurgan burials.

    Later that changed, and R1a men assumed the elite status previously attributed to R1b-Z2103. So I don't think that there was ever such a thing as "replacement of R1b by R1a in the Steppe after Yamna". Yamna was probably R1b-Z2103 minority (but "smiths-shamans") + R1a majority (but "commoners"). And what we see later on, is the loss of high status by R1b-Z2103 and R1a men becoming "chieftains". However, Z2103 continued to exist as a minority lineage and went to India (there is in fact a small minority of R1b-Z2103 in India).

    There is even such a legend in the Aryan Veddas about the Asvins killing Dadhyak Atharvan because he didn't want to reveal to them the secrets of metallurgy. Then they cut of his head, replaced it with a horse's head - which started talking and revealed the knowledge to them. Believe it or not but such a burial of a decapitated man with attached horse's head has been found near Poltavka, and archaeologically (as well as chronologically) it corresponds to the replacement of R1b-dominated Poltavka culture by the R1a-dominated Potapovka culture.

    That decapitated man has not yet been tested for Y-DNA, it would be nice to see if he was one of Poltavka "mainstream" or one of Poltavka "outliers" (but of course according to my theory "outliers" were actually the majority of Poltavka population, but "mainstream" - being smiths with "magical knowledge" - were overrepresented in kurgan graves; same in Yamnaya).

    L23 has the highest variance in the Middle East and/or in the Balkans.

    So my idea that L23 mutation emerged in the Middle East is not improbable.

    The maximum variance in the Balkans is truly meaningful with respect to their migration history and last archaeological discoveries. Apparently Varna on the Black Sea coast was a quite important early metallurgy center. This could coincide with the R1b-L51 expansion.

    =================

    As for Western European R1b being derived directly from Yamna (rather than from "original" Bell Beaker):

    In Bell Beaker we have only L11+, or even just P312+. In CWC we have a whole diverse bunch of R1a subclades.

    We have M198*, L664, M417*, M417+, Z283+ (including Z284). Likely also some R1b M269(xL51) was in CWC too.

    This shows that CWC was a "wholesale" migration wave from the Steppe, with all lineages from very basal to more diverged moving at once. And all those guys had 75%+ Yamnaya/Steppe autosomal DNA (or Yamnaya-cousin autosomal DNA if you prefer).

    German Beaker was not such a thing, as it had a shortage of Y-DNA diversity (only L11+) and less of Steppe admixture.

    You need to explain why there was no L23(xL51) in Bell Beaker, and why there is none in modern Western Europe.

    Populations descended from CWC (such as Slavs) actually have ca. 5% of R1b-L23(xL51). See: Myres 2010.

    Which confirms that Corded Ware had some L23(xL51) from Yamna or Yamna-cousin population.

    By contrast, there is absolute lack of Yamna-related L23(xL51) in BB and modern West Europe.

    Eastern Europeans have 10x more of Yamna-related R1b (ca. 5.0%) than Germans (ca. 0.5%).

    ===========================

    Bell Beaker was probably Indo-Europeanized by Corded Ware in Germany and acquired Steppe admixture there.

    According to Carleton S. Coon, there was intense mixing between German Bell Beaker and German Corded Ware:

    Carleton S. Coon wrote:


    "(...) In their Rhineland center, the more numerous Bell Beaker people had
    constant relationships with the inhabitants of Denmark, who were still
    burying in corridor tombs. Furthermore, the Corded people, one branch
    of whom invaded Jutland and introduced the single-grave type of burial,
    also migrated to the Rhine Valley, and here amalgamated themselves
    with the Bell Beaker people
    , who were already in process of mixing with
    their Borreby type neighbors. The result of this triple fusion was a great
    expansion, and a population overflow down the Rhine, in the direction
    of Britain.


    (8) THE BRONZE AGE IN BRITAIN

    The consideration of the Bell Beaker problem leads naturally to that of
    the Bronze Age in the British Isles, where the Beaker people found their
    most important and most lasting home. Coming down the Rhine and out
    into the North Sea, they invaded the whole eastern coast of England and
    of Scotland, and also the shore of the Channel.
    The Beaker invasion of Britain was not a simple affair. Not only did the
    newcomers land in many places, but they brought with them somewhat
    different traditions. Although most of them brought zoned beakers and
    battle axes, in consequence of their blending with the Corded people in
    the Rhinelands
    (...)"

    ====================

    Indeed there is a lot of overlap in mitochondrial haplogroups between Corded Ware and German Beakers:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=852847213

    Bride exchanges ??? Or some other type(s) of hybridization.

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    I find interesting the smiths hypothesis but I find very hard to swallow the fact a handfull of first pacific smiths became the basis of Western Europe Y-DNA. It needed surely some well constitued groups of people with other arguments than only metallurgy skills
    Those R1b Beakers first expanded eastward, towards Germany and Central Europe in general. Later in Germany (or in Central Europe in general) they mixed with immigrants from the Steppe, acquired Steppe admixture (perhaps mediated mostly via women) and some cultural elements. After that, there was a "back-migration" from Germany to Britain and other parts of Western Europe.

    That's when modern subclades of R1b - such as L21, U152, etc. - really started to dominate numerically.

    Those Beakers that had initially expanded from Iberia or South France were not necessarily already L21 or U152.

    They could be mostly L51*, L11*, P312*, U106*, etc.. More common lineages likely expanded later.

    ===============================

    As for smiths and/or traders of metal objects being high-status individuals - check this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmHXBXG7Loo#t=6m20s

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    Furnace smelting of copper was invented by semi-nomadic people (Caucasians and/or Anatolians).

    This is according to Nissim Amzallag, "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations" (screenshot):



    This further strengthens my case that the spread of CHG admixture and R1b was related to this.

    CHG stands for Caucasian admixture after all.

    ========================

    L23 has the highest variance in the Middle East and/or in the Balkans.

    So my idea that L23 mutation emerged in the Middle East is not improbable.

    The maximum variance in the Balkans is truly meaningful with respect to their migration history and last archaeological discoveries. Apparently Varna on the Black Sea coast was a quite important early metallurgy center. This could coincide with the R1b-L51 expansion.
    More about Varna (see the English summary):

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...l&client=opera

    "E. Neustupný suggested using a term “Eneolithic” instead of the copper age and
    replacing its distinctive raw material criterion (copper) by a complex of cultural, social
    and economic elements. Importantly he recognized the emergence of the plough in
    agronomy instead of burning techniques, the replacement of large settlements by smaller
    ones, burying the dead in cemeteries on land outside the inhabited areas and the
    strengthening role of the male (“patriarchy”) in societies of that time."


    "A sequence of the Hamangia-Varna cultures, beginning from the 3rd development
    phase of the former, is thought to be the oldest and most representative cultures of the
    copper age/eneolithic. They are dated from 4900 to 4400 BC. The wealthiest in metal
    product sites is an eponymic cemetery at Varna.
    All metal artifacts from the graves of
    the Hamangia and Varna cultures may be qualified to a group of symbolic finds, which
    had little in common with the notion of utilitarism. Similar functions were performed
    by other artifacts made of different raw materials. Among others, long flint blades or
    ornaments made of Spondylus shells and many others may be mentioned. It is thought
    that in the cemeteries of the Hamangia-Varna cultures circle, with particular consideration
    of the cemetery at Varna, there were traces of serious inner differentiation of
    societies that were using it."


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    L23 has the highest variance in the Middle East and/or in the Balkans.

    So my idea that L23 mutation emerged in the Middle East is not improbable.

    The maximum variance in the Balkans is truly meaningful with respect to their migration history and last archaeological discoveries. Apparently Varna on the Black Sea coast was a quite important early metallurgy center. This could coincide with the R1b-L51 expansion.
    More about Varna (see the English summary):


    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...l&client=opera


    "E. Neustupný suggested using a term “Eneolithic” instead of the copper age and
    replacing its distinctive raw material criterion (copper) by a complex of cultural, social
    and economic elements. Importantly he recognized the emergence of the plough in
    agronomy instead of burning techniques, the replacement of large settlements by smaller
    ones, burying the dead in cemeteries on land outside the inhabited areas and the
    strengthening role of the male (“patriarchy”) in societies of that time."



    "A sequence of the Hamangia-Varna cultures, beginning from the 3rd development
    phase of the former, is thought to be the oldest and most representative cultures of the
    copper age/eneolithic. They are dated from 4900 to 4400 BC. The wealthiest in metal
    product sites is an eponymic cemetery at Varna.
    All metal artifacts from the graves of
    the Hamangia and Varna cultures may be qualified to a group of symbolic finds, which
    had little in common with the notion of utilitarism. Similar functions were performed
    by other artifacts made of different raw materials. Among others, long flint blades or
    ornaments made of Spondylus shells and many others may be mentioned. It is thought
    that in the cemeteries of the Hamangia-Varna cultures circle, with particular consideration
    of the cemetery at Varna, there were traces of serious inner differentiation of
    societies that were using it."



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    ATP3 (who was R1b-M269+ ???) from Iberia was among burials classified as "Pre-Bell Beaker" by archaeologists:

    Check this paper - "An unusual Pre-bell beaker copper age cave burial context from El Portalon de Cueva Mayor site (Sierra de Atapuerca, Burgos)":

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...apuerca_Burgos

    https://www.academia.edu/16986146/Pr...puerca_Burgos_

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    Do you think Varna Culture will be R1b in substantial degree?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    If correct there's no reason to believe they started in the middle east.

    The most likely place(s) for it to start are areas with large copper deposits like for example the Kargaly copper field which just so happens to be right next to Yamnaya.

    (Although there may have been multiple start points.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    If correct there's no reason to believe they started in the middle east.

    The most likely place(s) for it to start are areas with large copper deposits like for example the Kargaly copper field which just so happens to be right next to Yamnaya.

    (Although there may have been multiple start points.)
    I'm not sure if place of natural resources can dictate where idea is born. Pots were not invented in place where most clay exists. Steam engine wasn't invented in a country with most wood or water, or nuclear reactor close to uranium ore. It is just enough if resource is available for the invention. Good ideas spread quickly, and people are enough mobile and inventive to get the material for the idea to keep going and going.

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    I'm sceptical if one haplogroup could capture an idea, like bronze smelting, and run with it for centuries or even millennia spreading their Y DNA. It seems to be more of a Superhero realm than normal people. It is a nice read though, and kept me going for a while. :)

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    I'm sceptical if one haplogroup could capture an idea, like bronze smelting, and run with it for centuries or even millennia spreading their Y DNA.
    Smith is the most common surname in Britain. Kowalski (= "Smithski") is the most common surname in Poland. The profession was hereditary. If one clan invented furnace metallurgy, they kept the secret to themselves for as long as possible.

    And all early smiths around Western Eurasia were likely descended from those very first smiths.

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    I'm sceptical if one haplogroup could capture an idea, like bronze smelting, and run with it for centuries or even millennia spreading their Y DNA.
    After ENF = 60% G2a does anyone still believe in rapid cultural transitions without migrating people involved? :) It is obvious that early diffusion of advanced metallurgy = a demographic event (migrations of hereditary smiths). "Early Blacksmith Modal Haplotype" surely existed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Do you think Varna Culture will be R1b in substantial degree?
    I guess so.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm sceptical if one haplogroup could capture an idea, like bronze smelting, and run with it for centuries or even millennia spreading their Y DNA. It seems to be more of a Superhero realm than normal people. It is a nice read though, and kept me going for a while. :)
    There are hereditary smithing clans in Africa.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks...de_blacksmiths

    A single family in the village is designated to produce blacksmiths.
    Bamana society is also endogamous, so blacksmith families are the only Blacksmiths in the village and they hold a very high status, due to the extreme power and responsibility that they possess
    .

    Note the connection to magic.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm not sure if place of natural resources can dictate where idea is born. Pots were not invented in place where most clay exists. Steam engine wasn't invented in a country with most wood or water, or nuclear reactor close to uranium ore. It is just enough if resource is available for the invention. Good ideas spread quickly, and people are enough mobile and inventive to get the material for the idea to keep going and going.
    If no copper how could they get the idea?

    It is just enough if resource is available for the invention.
    If basic copper working had already become a thing so people elsewhere imported copper and then one of those groups invented a new process and there was a secondary expansion because of that new process then yes I agree - and that could have been the middle east or anywhere else - but I think the first, basic form of copper working would start where it was found naturally.

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    Thanks Greying Wanderer, great find:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks...de_blacksmiths

    The Mande blacksmiths hold important positions in society. Blacksmiths are often called upon by the chief for guidance in major decisions regarding the village. The power of the blacksmith is thought to be so great that they are also feared. Mande Blacksmiths control a force called nyama. This means that they control all energy and power in the village as well as the makeup and workings of the Mande society (Ross). The ability to control such a force is not given to just anyone. A single family in the village is designated to produce blacksmiths. The boys from that family are taught the daliluw, “the secret knowledge about the use and nature of nyama”(Ross).

    “Nyama is the foundation that nourishes the institution of smithing, so that it may nourish society, is the simple axiom that knowledge can be power when properly articulated…. One must first possess it (nyama) in substantial amounts and then acquire the knowledge to manipulate and direct it to capitalize on its potential benefits. Acts that the difficult or dangerous—like hunting, or smelting, and forging iron—demand that a greater responsibility of energy and a higher degree of knowledge be possessed by the actor." (Perani, Smith 1998: 71)

    They begin training at an early age, as an apprentice in order to master the techniques of blacksmithing by the time they reach adulthood and become a Mande Blacksmith.

    The Bamana society is very similar to the Mande. Bamana society is also endogamous, so blacksmith families are the only Blacksmiths in the village and they hold a very high status, due to the extreme power and responsibility that they possess. Bamana Blacksmiths are also experts in divination, amulet making, as well as the practice of medicines due to their extensive knowledge of the Spirit of Ogun. Bamana Blacksmiths are responsible with the well being of the villagers and the safety of the village. This power like the Mande is driven by their control over nyama.

    The Bamana training of young blacksmiths lasts about eight years. After completion of the apprenticeship the young blacksmith is ready to begin forging tools, weapons, and ritual masks and staffs, used for ceremonial purposes. “When used actively and sacrificed to, iron staffs continue to gain and radiate power, the power to protect, cure, fight, honor, lead, and repel” (Perani, Smith 1998: 71-72).
    You will also notice that in Africa within the same tribe there are often genetic differences between farmers and blacksmiths:

    "Ari Blacksmith" is in terms of autosomal DNA not the same as "Ari Cultivator" (probably also different clades of Y-DNA):


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    More:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks...western_Africa

    Blacksmiths emerged in western Africa around 1500 BC. They are feared in some societies for their skill in metalworking, which is considered a form of magic, but universally revered by for their technological pioneering. While common people fear the power of the blacksmith, they are highly admired and hold high social status. Because the trade is so specialized and dangerous, blacksmiths are often requisitioned by towns and villages where there are none (Ross). Other ironworking societies such as the Mande people of Mali and the Bamana exist in West Africa.
    Someone should test Y-DNA haplogroups of different Western African blacksmiths.

    It might turn out that most of them share a common ancestor who lived ca. 1500 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ATP3 (who was R1b-M269+ ???) from Iberia was among burials classified as "Pre-Bell Beaker" by archaeologists:

    Check this paper - "An unusual Pre-bell beaker copper age cave burial context from El Portalon de Cueva Mayor site (Sierra de Atapuerca, Burgos)":

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...apuerca_Burgos

    https://www.academia.edu/16986146/Pr...puerca_Burgos_
    When they say "Pre-Bell-Beaker" do they mean that he was no BB or that he was ancestral to BB?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm sceptical if one haplogroup could capture an idea, like bronze smelting, and run with it for centuries or even millennia spreading their Y DNA. It seems to be more of a Superhero realm than normal people. It is a nice read though, and kept me going for a while. :)
    I tend to agree. I see some people still pushing the whole "metallurgy in western Europe came from Yamnaya people" scenario. Have they forgotten that Yamnaya was initially very primitive in terms of metallurgy, and borrowed the technology from others? Have they also forgotten that Remedello in northern Italy had copper metallurgy and were I2a typically Middle Neolithic people autosomally, and that G2a Oetzi used copper tools and more importantly had arsenic in his blood and so might have been a copper worker? Corded Ware barely had copper metallurgy when it was expanding.

    As for J2, it's obvious that at some point J2 dominated cultures became highly skilled metalworkers.

    I'm skeptical about all this speculation in the absence of hard data.

    As for Iberian Bell Beaker, we should know very soon what yDna and autosomal signature they carried. I will say that a lot of the Beaker settlements in Iberia look coastal, with the large riverine ones perhaps spreading from the coast:

    For another view of the origin of Bell Beaker-The dogma of the Iberian origin of Bell Beaker:
    http://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/index.php...e/view/112/113

    If it didn't originate in Iberia all bets would be off.

    Does anyone know whether the Bell Beaker samples being tested by the Reich Lab include any from Los Millares? You'd have to be very careful about the dating though, as there are definitely different stages, an earlier Megalithic one and then a Bell Beaker one. Also, it's always looked to me as if there was definitely a new population movement into the area, and not necessarily from Europe.

    Where they came from and what y signatures they carried is a whole other story.

    "Los Millares was constructed in three phases, each phase increasing the level of fortification. The fortification is not unique to the Mediterranean area of the 3rd millinnum; other sites with bastions and defensive towers include the sites of Jericho, Ai, and Aral (in Palestine) and Lebous, Boussargues and Campe of Laures( in France)."
    http://archaeology.about.com/od/mter...s_millares.htm

    Their y signature might have been J2 for all we know.

    See also:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Millares
    "Similarities between Los Millares architecture and the step pyramid at Monte d'Accoddi inSardinia have been noticed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    I see some people still pushing the whole "metallurgy in western Europe came from Yamnaya people" scenario. Have they forgotten that Yamnaya was initially very primitive in terms of metallurgy, and borrowed the technology from others?
    Is it about me ??? Of course I'm not saying that metallurgy came to Europe from Yamnaya.

    I'm saying that R1b men from the Balkans or from the Middle East introduced metallurgy to Yamnaya.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Have they also forgotten that Remedello in northern Italy had copper metallurgy and were I2a typically Middle Neolithic people autosomally, and that G2a Oetzi used copper tools and more importantly had arsenic in his blood and so might have been a copper worker?
    They were just native Farmers of the area - not people responsible for spreading metallurgy.

    What does it mean "copper worker" - physical labourer, simple miner? Surely not a skilled blacksmith.

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    Remedello in northern Italy had copper metallurgy and were I2a typically Middle Neolithic people autosomally
    Powhatan were autosomally 100% Native Americans in 1620. But it doesn't disprove the existence of Jamestown.

    When John Smith (what a coincidence!) came to North America, he did not immediately fell in love with Pocahontas.

    Admixture between locals and newcomers always takes time (both groups are initially genetically distinct). When a new population mixes into a pre-existing gene pool, the percentage of the invader's genes within the population must be ~0 at time=0, by definition. The growth of admixture must be something like a linear slope, from a percentage of 0 at time=0 to a percentage X at time T. A population can't "start off as pretty heavy" anything. Individuals interbreed one by one. Entire cultural groups do not instantaneously interbreed.

    Intermarriages of two groups result in a continuous change in admixture from zero to X, and do not require a large percent at t=0.

    It could be that most of Remedello population was still Middle Neolithic autosomally, but some immigrants were already there.

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