R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

IN fact in previous dreams of mine I wondered if some Y-I2a2 were not the "first" BBs taking Y-R1b in a metals trip around Western Europe.
When calculating the ratio of Y-I2a2 opposed to Y-I2a1 and Y-I1, the denser places are in Western Europe, not in North or South or East, as well among future Celtic as among Ligurian or Italic world, born in some way around the BBs network.
 
IN fact in previous dreams of mine I wondered if some Y-I2a2 were not the "first" BBs taking Y-R1b in a metals trip around Western Europe.
When calculating the ratio of Y-I2a2 opposed to Y-I2a1 and Y-I1, the denser places are in Western Europe, not in North or South or East, as well among future Celtic as among Ligurian or Italic world, born in some way around the BBs network.

Yes if the correlation (ydna I and mountains) exists it could be the other way round.
 
This does not solve the fact that there is no R1b-L51 in the Steppes at all so far but only among early Bronze Age Bell Beakers in Western Europe. If R1b came from the Steppes in 4500 bp we should find this 6000 years old mutation R1b-L51 there, this is not the case so far then I doubt. I would wait for an R1b-L51 in the Steppe aDNA first to clear these doubts.

Good remark. Without any prejudice, I say: have we Y-DNA of Western Yamnaya??? I think we have only the Samara sort?
If you know other Yamnaya people studied for Y-DNA, let me know. I know some other sites had been studied but I forgot their localization. Perhaps I missed some posts.
Thanks in advance.
 
Yes it is not M269 but some very rare (?) branch. It is also not V88.
 
It may be L389*, which exists in Armenia also today, albeit at low frequency.
 
withoutdenying the possible specific link of Y-R1b with metallurgy, I keepon with my Y-I2a2 story, at the mergin.
Y-I2a2a-M223,roughly today Germano-Scandinavian, withpicks in Germanyand North-East Sweden,is present at lower levels around the Black Sea, inNorth Russia, Eastern Romania/Moldova, Italy,Greece, West , North-Westand Southern Franceand also a bit in Near-East and North Africa. The presence in S-EEurope could be the result of Goths and other Varengians. Maybe a too"general" andspred SNPtomake conclusions?Accordingto Maciamo its other subclades check diverse events among whoseVikings and Normans moves.
itssubclade Y-I2a2a1-M284 is present in Britain and Portugal, rarer inIrelandexceptNorth-East butlinked there to supposed Pictish elites surely come from ScotlandspiteWikipedia speaks of Gaelic surnames.ALa Tène package doesn'nt infirm nor confrm both celtic origin.Itsown subcladeY-I2a2a1a-L126/S165 is the densest in Scotland, surely not an hazardresult evocatingPicts.Sure we could see in it a pre-Germanic haplo having participated inthe Germanics moves, maybe even before the great barbarian migrationsinto Britain and Iberia. A possible ancient mix germanic-celtic amongsome Picts? Ormore simply two distinct successive arrivals in North Britain, thelast with Anglo-Saxons and other Germanics ?
Y-I2a2b-L38/S154,found in Lichtenstein cave linked to Unstrut lateral culture ofUrnfields, seems more strictlylinked to Celtic or proto-Celtic ina post-BB context;thedominance of mt-H before mt-U5 there points also to a post-BB stage;it could be come from SouthernGermanyas the relatively high incidence in Switzerlandand Alsace among future places of La Tène seemspermitting.Ahigh enough density in Alpine Italy, Eastern France, Beneluxand Britain except Western Britain seems confirming that ; itcould be exemplary of celtic tribes of Belgia (other tribes weregermanic and maybe old macro-italic remote tribes living alongside).Someones spoke of a possible Dniestr-Carpathian trail until CentralEurope.
Iwould be glad iif I had confirmation of it. The Carpathian Romaniaseems having been rich for mt-H (H5 the most) since LN. Y-I2a2has been found among anDNA in Steppes too, but what subclade andwhere from ? One of my old dreams was some subclades of Y-I2a2were strong enough around the Cucuteni-Tripolye area and after sometime of isolation, participated in the metals development ofEast-Central Europe along bearers of other Y-haplos.
Justfor the fun.
Concerning Y-R1b in Armenia and Southern Caucasus I maintain to date my first statements: seems more kind of dead end than the center of diffusion of the M269 clades involved in Eurasia big trips. Maybe North Armenia was crossed by other R1b people not staying there and passing northward. I don't know just now.
 
Bump.

I was right about R1b all over Mesolithic and Post-Mesolithic Balkans!

Including Varna culture!
 
I confess I never did guess this! (shame on me)
I 'll try - if I can - to look at the geographic/mesologic localization of all these Y-R1b and also I2a2 of ancient Balkans
 
Hovhannisyan et al, 2014 also found that the variance of R1b-M269 is heavily concentrated in eastern Anatolia, the Kura-Araxes sample belonging to a brother clade ofR1b-M269 also supports those findings.
 
From Ancient Europe by Stuart Piggott (an Oldie but Goodie, p. 102-3):

Our technological enquiry into the beginnings of European metalworking can now be taken to its final stage with the examination of some rather puzzling phenomena. In an area of southern central Europe, north of the Alps and lying roughly between the modern towns of Bern, Vienna, Frankfurt, and Dresden, a consistent series of new types of copper tools, weapons, and ornaments appear overlapping with the end of the Bell-Beaker phase, but not themselves of beaker forms. Furthermore, they replace the beaker metal types and are the prototypes for the whole rich series of bronzes which follow thereafter and dominate the greater part of Europe. The new features include the techniques of riveting a dagger-blade into its haft instead of using a tang as in the beaker tradition; the use of ornaments including spiral wire pendants and ingot-torcs (necklets with returned ends that could also be used as units of copper); and the use of garments fastened by pins instead of buttons....They owe nothing to anything which goes before in Europe, but riveted daggers were the normal Near Eastern type, and the ingot-torcs and specific pin forms do in fact occur in several Near Eastern sites, but especially those in Syria such as Byblos and Ugarit, during a limited period of time around 2000—1800 B.C. Furthermore, the grave-finds in central Europe show a swing-over in the warrior's equipment from the beaker tradition of bow and arrow, to that of the dagger and axe: this change in weapons means a change in tactics to one also current in contemporary Syria. (Fig. 56)

It looks therefore as if shortly after 2000 B.C. contact was established between the metal-smiths and merchants of Syria and the peoples and copper ores of south-central Europe; spectrographic analysis shows that the metal deposits of the Tyrol and elsewhere in central Europe were now being worked. But by what route could such contact be made? The distribution in Europe of the types in question show that while some are found as far east as the River Tisza, they do not occur further east, and the majority are not found further down the Danube than just beyond Vienna. A route up the Danube from the east to south-central Europe seems then unlikely, and we must consider the possibility of trade from the head of the Adriatic over a 200 mile-long route probably crossing the Alps by the St Gothard Pass....And if we look for occasions which might prompt such merchant venturing from the Levant, the disturbed conditions precipitated by the Amorite and other raids at the beginning of the second millennium might well play their part, with the dislocation of previous trading arrangements, and a consequent impetus to seek new metal resources in the outer barbarian world.
 
In another thread (link) I've argued that R1b-L51 (or pre-L51 ancestral lineages of L23) was never present on the Steppe, but was responsible for spreading early metallurgy directly from the Middle East to Western Europe:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32260-The-genetic-history-of-Ice-Age-Europe

Here I present some evidence linking the rapid expansion of L23 lineages with the spread of metallurgy.

These are excerpts of "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations" by Nissim Amzallag:

http://www.ajaonline.org/article/300

Rapid diffusion of metallurgy in the 4th millennium BC can be linked with expansion of R1b M269/L23:

metallurgy1.png


Metallurgy expanded north with Maykop culture, which contributed R1b-Z2103 to Yamnaya:

metallurgy2.png


Metallurgy expanded to Iberia across the Mediterranean region and later with Bell Beakers:

metallurgy3.png


And a map showing how R1b-L51 or maybe pre-L51 L23 (ancestral to ATP3 and Bell Beaker) migrated:

metallurgy4.png


Previously I've pointed out, that some of the most basal lineages of L51 can be found in Sardinia:

Sardinian_L51.png

Great point about the Sardinians. I totally agree about L51 crossing the Med. to form the Beaker culture, again despite Olalde. L23 could be from West Asia or the Balkans, I'm not sure, but I suspect the Balkans. If not L23, then M269.
 
Those R1b Beakers first expanded eastward, towards Germany and Central Europe in general. Later in Germany (or in Central Europe in general) they mixed with immigrants from the Steppe, acquired Steppe admixture (perhaps mediated mostly via women) and some cultural elements. After that, there was a "back-migration" from Germany to Britain and other parts of Western Europe.

That's when modern subclades of R1b - such as L21, U152, etc. - really started to dominate numerically.

Those Beakers that had initially expanded from Iberia or South France were not necessarily already L21 or U152.

They could be mostly L51*, L11*, P312*, U106*, etc.. More common lineages likely expanded later.

===============================

As for smiths and/or traders of metal objects being high-status individuals - check this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmHXBXG7Loo#t=6m20s


Entirely agreed, I can't see any other alternative that can explain the phylogeny. M269 in the Balkans, to L23 in Anatolia, to L51 across the Mediterranean in SW Europe and Z2103 still somewhere in West Asia. All the way, it seems like they were accompanied by I2a folks, which explains its presence in West Asia but also in Sardinia, Iberia etc. Then we have Z2103 migrating to the Steppe, and the Yamnaya expansions into the Balkans. L51 eventually meets with Corded Ware as L11 and they blend together under the dominance of the Beaker males to form Unetice. U106 then travels West in the direction of the Netherlands, further blending with Corded types in NW mainland Europe (picking up mainly R1a and I1). U106 would also go to Scandinavia. P312 is formed somewhere in between France and Germany, with DF27 going to Iberia, L21 travelling to Britanny as a launching point to Britain and Ireland, and also NW Iberia, and U152 going alpha as Hallstatt and later Le Tene. I'm also reasonably confident that the group that went to the Netherlands and later to Eastern Britain would have been pre-Germanic U106 - it seems likely to me.

Only points of issue are with languages and with metallurgy. With languages, given the Basque, this hypothesis only works if Western European languages are actually from the Corded Ware culture - they can't be from the Beaker folk, as that's way too old to fit in with the Indo-European family tree. This is completely reasonable as you'd be hard pressed to explain how a minority like the Beakers would change the language of the CWC that far out numbered them. In the case of the IE invasion of India, it's very different and on a much larger scale. With metallurgy, we have to explain how Bronze Age technology spread from East to West - it didn't come from Corded Ware and because it's from East to West it couldn't come from Iberian Beakers, so they would have had to pick it up, perhaps from the nearby Yamnaya. We know the Beakers and Yamnayas came into contact with one another from the spread of Beaker pottery, and we know that metallurgy isn't always spread by invasions (the Bronze Age wasn't entirely spread by R1b...), so it's not too unreasonable that the Beaker folk picked up the techniques.
 
I genuinely think, through deduction, there's enough information to be very confident in the L51 Iberian Beaker hypothesis. Where the **** did the L51 come from basically! It can't have come from the Balkans as part of the Yamnaya expansion, which was so clearly Z2103 given the Z2103:L51 ratio of the Balkans, which discounts that as the source of Eastern Beaker Steppe. It can't have come from the Steppe through Europe via the Northern European plain with the Corded Ware culture, and it can't have come before it either (otherwise we would have Steppe DNA much earlier in Europe). It is also extremely unlikely it powered all the way to East-Central Europe from the Steppe through Corded Ware, firstly because the Steppe was dominated by Z2103 in the South and R1a in the North with no evidence of any L51 at all, but also because if it had done that it would have left virtually no trace, as we have none to follow - this is very unlikely. So it couldn't have come to Western Europe from the East.

If we imagine a mixture event, where the Steppe ancestry comes from blending with the Corded Ware folk, THEN we have a good picture. Here, the only plausible picture is that the R1b L51 comes from an Eastwards Beaker migration.

This, to me, is foolproof. There's lots of other small hints, such as with phenotypes (looking at Baskid+Corded=North Atlantid), but there are a few potential holes (as mentioned above).

First is language, which can easily be resolved by saying that the Beaker folk who imposed themselves above CW did so as a minority (like we know the Beaker folk always were), and so simply adopted the language of the CWC. When there isn't large scale population replacement, this tends to be the case - for example in Britain the incoming group did replace the language, but not so much in Iberia, where the population was far larger. The second issue is the spread of Bronze metallurgy clearly being from East to West - this can only truly be explained by the Beaker folk learning it somewhere, and we know that the Beaker folk came into contact with the Balkan arm of Yamnaya, where being metallurgists themselves they probably picked up the techniques.

FOOLPROOF I SAY - FOOLPROOF!
 
Globular Amphora and CWC "cohabited" in some places some time, and we see BB's living almost side by side with CWC in some regions with here and there subsequent crossings, so we cannot do this statement that a clannic culture prevents by force and everytime another clannic culture to take some parts of lands, it occurred more than a time when these cultures were not in a too tight concurrence concerning economy; to allow just a passage accross their lands was even more easy I think.
 
I think this is pretty visionary to be honest - obviously some parts are wrong, but the gist of it I mean.
 

This thread has been viewed 58408 times.

Back
Top