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Thread: Athanasiadis et al. 2016 - Genetic History of Denmark

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    Athanasiadis et al. 2016 - Genetic History of Denmark

    Abstract:

    Athanasiadis et al., Nationwide genomic study in Denmark reveals remarkable population homogeneity, ESHG EMPAG 2016 Presentation Abstract, P18.091C

    Abstract: Denmark’s genetic history has never been studied in detail. In this work, we analysed genetic and anthropometrical data from ~800 Danish students as part of an outreach activity promoting genomic literacy in secondary education. DNA analysis revealed remarkable homogeneity of the Danish population after discounting contributions from recent immigration. This homogeneity was reflected in PCA and AMOVA, but also in more sophisticated LD-based methods for estimating admixture. Notwithstanding Denmark’s homogeneity, we observed a clear signal of Polish admixture in the East of the country, coinciding with historical Polish settlements in the region before the Middle Ages. In addition, Denmark has a substantially smaller effective population size compared to Sweden and Norway, possibly reflecting further lack of strong population structure. None of these three Scandinavian countries seems to have suffered a depression due to the Black Death in the Middle Ages. Finally, we used the students’ genetic data to predict their adult height after training a novel prediction algorithm on public summary statistics from large GWAS. We validated our prediction using the students’ self-reported height and found that we could predict height with a remarkable ~64% accuracy.

    http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/ViewAb...14-ddac3db6fc2a

    ==============================

    What ??? Did they write?:

    "a clear signal of Polish admixture in the East of the country, coinciding with historical Polish settlements in the region before the Middle Ages"

    Does "before the Middle Ages" mean "during the Viking Age"?

    If so, then maybe it has something to do with this:

    "Denmark - kingdom created by Danish king and Polish mercenaries?":

    http://historum.com/war-military-history/5...ercenaries.html

    "Harold Bluetooth’s Vikings were Polish mercenaries":

    http://www.au.dk/en/about/news/single/arti...sh-mercenaries/

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    Indeed in Danish chronology before the Middle Ages = before year 1050 AD:

    Tidlig middelalder (ca. 1050-1200)
    Højmiddelalder (1200-1400)
    Senmiddelalder (1400-1536)

    https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelalderen

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Abstract:

    Athanasiadis et al., Nationwide genomic study in Denmark reveals remarkable population homogeneity, ESHG EMPAG 2016 Presentation Abstract, P18.091C

    Abstract: Denmark’s genetic history has never been studied in detail. In this work, we analysed genetic and anthropometrical data from ~800 Danish students as part of an outreach activity promoting genomic literacy in secondary education. DNA analysis revealed remarkable homogeneity of the Danish population after discounting contributions from recent immigration. This homogeneity was reflected in PCA and AMOVA, but also in more sophisticated LD-based methods for estimating admixture. Notwithstanding Denmark’s homogeneity, we observed a clear signal of Polish admixture in the East of the country, coinciding with historical Polish settlements in the region before the Middle Ages. In addition, Denmark has a substantially smaller effective population size compared to Sweden and Norway, possibly reflecting further lack of strong population structure. None of these three Scandinavian countries seems to have suffered a depression due to the Black Death in the Middle Ages. Finally, we used the students’ genetic data to predict their adult height after training a novel prediction algorithm on public summary statistics from large GWAS. We validated our prediction using the students’ self-reported height and found that we could predict height with a remarkable ~64% accuracy.
    This is a misleading statement considering the fact that there was no Poland yet before Middle Ages. It should have been called West Slavic, possibly due to Wieleci tribe.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    In 950-1050 there already was Poland.

    Sources such as Saxo Grammaticus mention Polish mercenaries, since Poland and Denmark were allies. Lechitic tribes (ancestors of Poles) were there already long before 950 too, just like Anglo-Saxon tribes were in Britain centuries before England emerged:

    Lechitic tribes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechites#Lechitic_group

    When Mieszko I inherited the ducal throne from his father he probably ruled over two-thirds of the territory inhabited by eastern Lechite tribes. He united the Lechites east of the Oder (Polans, Masovians, Pomeranians, Vistulans, Silesians) into a single country: Poland. His son, Bolesław the Brave founded the bishoprics at Wrocław, Colberg, and Cracow, and an archbishopric at Gniezno. Bolesław carried out successful wars against Bohemia, Moravia, Kievan Rus and Lusatia, and forced the western Pomeranians to pay Poland a tribute. (...)
    Are you claiming that Polish DNA suddenly changed after Mieszko politically united all the tribes ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This is a misleading statement considering the fact that there was no Poland yet before Middle Ages. It should have been called West Slavic, possibly due to Wieleci tribe.
    Vyelets are basically the same, especially at that times, they are Lechites, and West slavs.
    If Piasts would conquer them also, kipping them in one state until present time, they would be so different as Mazovians are.

    Btw, such articles must be understatable for normal person. Such a redear has no idea who Vyelets are.

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    But sources mention specifically Poles.

    There was also this Polish princess who became the queen of Denmark:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świętosława

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigrid_the_Haughty

    =======================

    Wife of Harold Bluetooth (mother of Svein Forkbeard) was Slavic (namely Tofa, daughter of duke Mstivoy of the Obotrites), and later wife of Svein Forkbeard and mother of Canute the Great was also Slavic (namely Swietoslava, daughter of Mieszko I of Poland).

    This means, that Canute the Great was - in terms of autosomal DNA - more Slavic than Germanic.

    So no surprise, that German chronicler Thietmar of Merseburg in Book VII of his chronicle, described Canute the Great as - quote - "lizard's brood" and his father - Svein Forkbeard - as "the persecutor". From "The Chronicle of Thietmar, bishop of Merseburg":

    Link: The Chronicle of Thietmar bishop of Merseburg (translated by R. T. Prinke, 2000)

    "(...) Because nobody is able to comprehend either the curiosities of that northern land [Denmark], which are unfolded in their prodigious form by nature herself, or the cruel deeds of its people, I will omit them and will only devote a few words to that lizard's brood, that is to the sons of the said Svein, the persecutor. They were born to him by a daughter of duke Mieszko [of Poland] and sister of his son and successor Boleslaw [of Poland]. (...)"

    Though perhaps Thietmar regarded native Danes (those without Slavic blood) as "lizard's brood" too.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-05-16 at 21:18.

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    Wife of Harold Bluetooth (mother of Sweyn Forkbeard) was Slavic (Tofa, daughter of duke Mstivoy of the Obotrites), and later wife of Sweyn Forkbeard and mother of Canute the Great was also Slavic (Swietoslava, daughter of Mieszko I of Poland).

    This means, that Canute the Great was in terms of autosomal DNA more Slavic than Germanic.

    So no surprise, that German chronicler Thietmar in Book VII of his chronicle, described Canute the Great as - quote - "lizard's brood":

    http://main5.amu.edu.pl/~rafalp/sigr...ietmar-eng.htm

    "(...) Because nobody is able to comprehend either the curiosities of that northern land, which are unfolded in their prodigious form by nature herself, or the cruel deeds of its people, I will omit them and will only devote a few words to that lizard's brood, that is to the sons of the said Svein, the persecutor. They were born to him by a daughter of duke Mieszko and sister of his son and successor Boleslaw. (...)"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    In 950-1050 there already was Poland.
    I'm glad you mentioned the date. Now you might argue with authors or yourself. ;)
    Abstract: Denmark’s genetic history has never been studied in detail. In this work, we analysed genetic and anthropometrical data from ~800 Danish students as part of an outreach activity promoting genomic literacy in secondary education.
    Sources such as Saxo Grammaticus mention Polish mercenaries, since Poland and Denmark were allies. Lechitic tribes (ancestors of Poles) were there already long before 950 too, just like Anglo-Saxon tribes were in Britain centuries before England emerged:
    I'm sure historians referred to Polans, as to tribe Polanie, and whatever territory they've conquered. The rest of Slavs in Poland didn't refer to themselves as such till 200 years later at least.

    Lechitic tribes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechites#Lechitic_group
    Are you claiming that Polish DNA suddenly changed after Mieszko politically united all the tribes ???
    Culturally there was not much difference between Polanie and Wieleci. However I'm sure they would be very unhappy if they were called Polanie instead. You could have a war, lol, and they had. Genetically there might have been greater divide, like between Poles, Ukrainians and Czechs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Vyelets are basically the same, especially at that times, they are Lechites, and West slavs.
    I'm glad you noticed they had their own names.


    Btw, such articles must be understatable for normal person. Such a redear has no idea who Vyelets are.
    I'm sure they know what Slavs are. And West Slavs name is self-explanatory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    Does "before the Middle Ages" mean "during the Viking Age"?
    I would guess that Dark Ages were before Middle Ages, with transition around 700 AD.

    I think the biggest contact with Denmark had Volinians, from Volin. Sort of independent pirate/viking like community of mostly Slavs. Was the dude Bluetooth hiding there on banition? He had such modern name. :)

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    Wolin was part of Poland back then although semi-autonomous. Yes Harold Bluetooth died in Wolin, IIRC.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm sure they know what Slavs are. And West Slavs name is self-explanatory.
    They write Polish admixture, so they mean Polish. E.g. Slovaks are not genetically the same as Poles.

    Not all West Slavs are identical. How do you know what were Vyelets like in terms of DNA?

    The authors detected specifically Polish admixture in Denmark, which fits perfectly with historical data.

    I'm sure historians referred to Polans, as to tribe Polanie
    There is no evidence that there was even such a tribe. Tribe recorded in that region were Goplans.

    Poles are first mentioned after 990 as a name for inhabitants of all of Poland under Bolesław Chrobry.

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    Was there ever a Danish-Veleti alliance? I don't think so. But Poland and Denmark were historically good allies:

    "Diplomatic Relations between Poland and Denmark":

    http://www.kopenhaga.msz.gov.pl/en/b...printMode=true

    The first records of Polish-Danish relations date back to the early years of the first Polish ruling dynasty, the Piast dynasty. In 996, the first Polish king, Mieszko I, gave his daughter Świętosława in marriage to the Danish King Svend Forkbeard. This move was most probably a part of the Polish king's plan to strengthen his power. Around 1129/1130, the two countries cooperated in arranging a common expedition to the island of Wolin in what is now Northwestern Poland. This alliance, however, did not last for long. Another instance of Polish-Danish rapprochement took place in the 14th century when the Danish King Erik Menved concluded an alliance with the Polish king Władysław the Elbow-high, which was directed against the rising power of the German Margraviate of Brandenburg. Władysław’s son Casimir the Great twice invited the Danish King Valdemar Atterdag to his court in Kraków in the middle of the 14th century. During one of his stays, the Danish King participated in a banquet hosted by Mikołaj Wierzynek – whose restaurant carrying his name still exists today in Kraków’s Main Square. This event was made famous by Polish chronicler Jan Długosz’ depiction of the event.

    A very strong determining factor behind the foreign policies of the two kingdoms was the German expansion – by the Hanseatic League and the Teutonic Order – in the north and in the east. The Polish-Lithuanian Union and the Danish-Swedish-Norwegian Kalmar Union, which were both established in the late 14th century, were motivated by a desire to counteract the widespread German influence. In this context, mention should be made of Erik of Pomerania from the House of Griffins, which was a dynasty ruling the Duchy of Pomerania. Erik was adopted by the Danish Queen Margaret I and thanks to her efforts was crowned the king of the three united Nordic countries in 1397.

    The second part of the 16th century marked the beginning of a long period of fighting between the countries around the Baltic Sea to secure themselves the hegemony of the Baltic Region. What the Polish-Danish relations is concerned, this turbulent period was characterized by a series of short-lived alliances, most often directed against Sweden. The most famous episode of the Polish-Danish relationship in this period is undoubtedly the campaign of a corps of Polish soldiers under the leadership of Hetman Stefan Czarniecki. Czarniecki's troops came to the rescue of their Danish ally during the Second Northern War (1655-1660). The Danish King Frederik III had declared war against Sweden in 1657 but, much to his surprise, the Swedish troops soon defeated the Danish army. In 1658, Stefan Czarniecki and his squad of 6.000 soldiers came to the rescue of Denmark. The Polish troops especially distinguished themselves in the liberation of Als and Koldinghus – the former seat of the Danish kings. These events were vividly depicted by the Polish chronicler and nobleman Jan Chryzostom Pasek, who himself took part in the expedition.

    In the following decades, the Polish-Danish relations gradually lost their importance (...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Wolin was part of Poland back then although semi-autonomous. Yes Harold Bluetooth died in Wolin, IIRC.
    More precisely it was conquered by Polans. It had big degree of independence till 1050. Later it was attacked and destroyed few times by Danish king and lost it's greatness for good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    They write Polish admixture, so they mean Polish. E.g. Slovaks are not genetically the same as Poles.

    Not all West Slavs are identical. How do you know what were Vyelets like in terms of DNA?
    Exactly, so let's not jump in conclusion that they were Poles. Polish autosomal might be the closest proxy to what they found. Once they discover DNA of original Veleti, it will be even closer. Population of Veleti don't exist anymore. They can't take a sample from modern Veleti like from modern Poles for comparison.

    There is no evidence that there was even such a tribe. Tribe recorded in that region were Goplans.
    Poles are first mentioned after 990 as a name for inhabitants of all of Poland under Bolesław Chrobry.
    Are you saying that all the Slavs on polish territory called themselves Polacy, Polska from 990?

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    Are you saying that all the Slavs on polish territory called themselves Polacy, Polska from 990?
    Probably all of them called themselves simply "Slavs" at that time, without distinguishing.

    There was awareness of a common "pan-Slavic" identity among them in the 10th century.

    Later they started all calling themselves "Poles" from the 11th or 12th century onwards.

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    Population of Veleti don't exist anymore.
    That's why they cannot be offended...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Probably all of them called themselves simply "Slavs" at that time, without distinguishing.

    There was awareness of a common "pan-Slavic" identity among them in the 10th century.

    Later they started all calling themselves "Poles" from the 11th or 12th century onwards.
    I don't have a problem agreeing with that. I was just picking on their loose term of "Poland" used by researchers considering their pre Medieval meaning of around year 800. Much too soon. Also picking on eagerness of yours and Rethel's thinking of Vielleti as polish ethnicity. It carries emotionally charged nice feeling for Poles, but is it right or correct?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Strontium isotopes from teeth of Harold Bluetooth's mercenaries show that they came from Poland.

    Some of them - 6 out of 32 - even came from Southern Poland, i.e. from the region around Cracow.

    The main garrisons of the Polish army as of 1000 AD were these (according to Gallus Anonymus):

    Poznań - 1300 loricati + 4000 clipeati + 200 loricati given to Otto III (on 11.03.1000)
    Gniezno - 1500 loricati + 5000 clipeati
    Włocławek - 800 loricati + 2000 clipeati + 100 loricati given to Otto III (on 11.03.1000)
    Giecz - 300 loricati + 2000 clipeati

    Total for these 4 locations - 17,200 warriors (14 units x 300 loricati & 13 units x 1000 clipeati).

    Of course these are just most important garrisons, and there could exist also many other garrisons.

    Zululand under Shaka in 1879 AD had ca. 750,000 inhabitants and reportedly at least 37,000 warriors.

    Poland in 1000 AD had at least 1,250,000 inhabitants so could theoretically mobilize more warriors.

    ==============

    Loricati = heavy horsemen / heavy infantry
    Clipeati = light infantry troops / light cavalry

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    What I'm saying is that Bluetooth's Polish mercenaries probably originated from that area.

    Likely from Włocławek which is in Cuiavia at the Vistula River, with easy access to Gdańsk:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Włocławek

    So they sailed down the Vistula River up to Gdańsk (the main Polish port) and to Denmark.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Strontium isotopes from teeth of Harold Bluetooth's mercenaries show that they came from Poland.

    Some of them - 6 out of 32 - even came from Southern Poland, i.e. from the region around Cracow.
    Cool, polish mercenaries from Cracow in Denmark. They traded and shared easier than in European Union. :)

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    Unrelated to the issue of Poles in Denmark, but here is such a scheme that I made a few years ago.

    The battle in the Land of the Dadodesani (Gau Diadesi), 1015, according to Thietmar's Chronicle:

    The battle ended in destruction of the German rearguard during their retreat - German losses were "200 milites optimi" killed (apart from "optimi" perhaps several hundred "milites gregarii" died too), certain prominent knight named "Liudulfus" was captured:



    Among Germans killed in that battle was their commander-in-chief, Markgraf Gero II:

    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MEISSEN.htm

    a) GERO [II] ([970/75]-killed in battle Gau Diadesi 1 Sep 1015, bur Kloster Nienburg).

    "Geronem marchionem" is named in the Annalista Saxo, which also records his parentage[68]. A boy [puer] in 980, which provides the basis for estimating his birth date range. Graf im Hassegau 992. Markgraf [der Lausitz] 993. "…Gero comes…" was among the witnesses of the charter dated 1013 under which "Henricus…imperator augustus" renewed his 1007 judgment concerning a dispute between Willigis Archbishop of Mainz and Bernward Bishop of Hildesheim[69], although it is not certain that this is the same person as he is described as "comes" rather than "marchio". Thietmar records the death of "Markgraf Gero" in battle against the Poles, dated to 1015, and his burial at Nienburg[70]. m ADELHEID, daughter of ---. 1015. The Annalista Saxo names "Athelheidhe" as wife of "Thietmarus marchio", but does not give her origin[71]. Thietmar names Adelheid widow of Markgraf Gero at her husband's burial[72].
    ========

    Milites gregarii = normal warriors
    Milites optimi = better knights

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    Polish borders in 1000 AD, compared to main centers of the Polish army per Gallus Anonymus:

    Poland controlled all of Pomerania between the Oder and the Vistula River since around 970 AD:



    Map taken from the book "Archaeology of Early Medieval Poland" by Andrzej Buko (link):

    http://brego-weard.com/lib/ns/The_Ar...and_Discov.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm sure they know what Slavs are. And West Slavs name is self-explanatory.
    Average person on the West would think west-Russians.

    And term "West Slavs" does not seems to be so
    laudly promoting an article, like "Poles in Danemark!".

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